When The Trump Sounds-Will You Be Ready?
Published on September 10, 2007 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Religion
Continuing on where we left off we now come to Revelation 7:9-17 which says:

9After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”
13Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” 14And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15“Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16“They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17“for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”


We start off with another worship service not unlike we saw in Chapters 4 & 5 and before the next seal, the 7th, is opened. This is the worship service that will precede the great wrath of God about to overtake the whole world.

In this chapter we see two scenes. First we saw, in the last segment, the 144,000 chosen Jews sealed by God to do the work of God for his special purpose.

This next scene seems to represent all the world. First, we see "after those things." So we can see we're moving along to a different scene. We're moving from one group of people to another. We're going from a specific number to a multitude, a number nobody can number.

The word "behold" is a word of amazement. It's as tho John is saying, "I looked and I can't believe my eyes." He has seen creatures, elders and angels. Now before him is a great multitude, more than he can even number.

We always see two positions before the throne; standing and on their knees. We never see anyone sitting. Notice this multitude is standing before the throne.

Do you remember the promise given to Abraham? Here we see the promise fulfilled. We need to go way back to Genesis 22:16-17 and read:

By Myself I have sworn, says the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son— “blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies.

So John sees all these that are clothed in white. Earlier we saw a rainbow. So in effect what is happening here is one big lightshow is happening. The light from the dazzling colorful rainbow all around the throne is being reflected off all these pure white robes. God's own glory reflects back to him.

The Palm branches are a symbol of victory. These branches were used in the Jewish feasts. The last of the seven feasts mentioned in Lev 23 is called the Feast of Booths, (tabernacles) or Gathering. I believe each one of the seven feasts corresponds to an event in Christ's first or second coming. This last one is associated with the very end of time. We read in Lev 23:40:

And you shall take for yourselves on the first day the fruit of beautiful trees, branches of palm trees, the boughs of leafy trees, and willows of the brook; and you shall rejoice before the Lord your God for seven days.

Notice in v10 a loud voice crying out about salvation. They are recognizing that salvation does indeed come from God. Have you noticed that nothing seems quiet in heaven. Everything seems to happen with a shout. We will see an exception tho soon.

In v11 we see all angels (lots) elders and creatures worship God. They are giving God the glory for what he has done for mankind. Notice the seven fold praise to God as they listed seven attributes of God in this remarkable description of Him. This scene should remind us of Luke 15:10 when Christ said:

“Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Imagine all heaven rejoicing when you finally came to God leaving the world behind. How awesome.

So now we come to v13 with two questions being asked of John. This is so reminiscent of how Christ operated when He walked the earth. He liked to ask questions to get them to thinking. It was also a typical Jewish format and one we see quite often in the OT. For example you can see this question and answer format in Ezek 37 and Zech 4:1-6.

So he asks John "who are these people"? We know they're saved. They have new garments exchanging the old filthy ones for fresh clean pure ones. These robes speak of purity and righteousness. They have been washed in the blood of the lamb. 1 John 1:7 says:

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

The next question asks "where did they come from?"

The answer is they came out of the Great Tribulation. This is the only place and time where the tribulation is called the "Great Tribulation." This is the second half of Daniel's week. This is occurring right after the 6th seal and before the 7th. These are those who have entered heaven. I believe these could quite possibly be those that have been raptured. This would be another way of saying the rapture occurs "pre-wrath." It's not as popular as a "pre-trib rapture" but it may make much more sense when you take Matthew 24 and lay it side by side with what we've been reading thus far in Revelation.

Some say these are those that are saved thru all the ages. Some say these are those saved during the seven year tribulation. If you believe in the pre-trib rapture then you would place the rapture before Revelation 4:1. Others say it's right here. These people are those that have come out of the great tribulation as it is so stated right here in this section.

We can see quite clearly there is an interlude between the 6th & 7th seal. It seems as tho this is the time when God quite possibly is yanking his people out of the world.

This time is also the changing of the guard. It's back to the Jews again. That's why this all starts with the 144,000 Jews being sealed and explains why these questions are now being asked of John. When we look at v9 we see they come from all nations. Usually this speaks of Gentiles, not Jews. So now what we are observing here is the changing of the baton back to the Jews to preach the gospel to their fellow Jews. God is now going to turn back to israel. That's why he's gathered them and set them in their own land today.

The bible says we will have tribulation. He may allow the church to go thru the tribulation but will never allow the church to suffer thru his wrath meant only for unbelievers. The tribulation coming from evil men in this world is much different than wrath poured out from heaven above.

Going back to 6:17 we see that introduces us to chapter 7. When does this all take place? After the six seals have been opened. There will be no Christians on earth when the 7th seal is opened. This is when God's fury and wrath will be poured out and who will be able to stand? Only those 144,000 sealed and protected by God.

Going back to Matthew 24 we see Jesus is sitting with his disciples. These are his followers and whom he is addressing. They are looking for a sign (v3). A sign is something you see. In v13 he says he who endures to the end will be saved? End of what? The tribulation. This makes sense. Those who make it thru the tribulation will be pulled out and saved before the wrath of God. Notice in v22 it says:

"And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened"

What days shortened? It can't be the full seven years or Daniel's 70th week would be void. These shortened days would be the period of the tribulation. It will be cut short for the elect's sake when He will take them out.

Going onto 24:25 Jesus uses the pronoun "you" meaning his disciples. He goes on to say in v31:

"And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

He's telling them he will take them out via the Rapture before it gets really bad. Yes they will go thru tribulation. Yes it's going to be bad. But we are never to worry about what man can do to us. It's what God is able to do to man that should have us trembling. Notice the trumpet is mentioned again as it is in 1 Thess 4:16. The trumpet is very well known in Jewish times to gather God's people together. That's a picture of what we see Jesus is explaining to his disciples here.

Today the church today is mostly teaching a pre-trib rapture theory thanks in part to Tim LaHaye and others. What will happen if the tribulation starts to happen and we're still here? They may start to think they are not believers or that God's promises are not true. Don't be surprised if we do start to go thru some pretty unsettling tribulation to come. We must endure and wait it out and know he will cut short the days when he deems it to be the right time. All in his timing.

After coming out of much turmoil and tears God will comfort them promising them no more hunger and no more thirst. He will shepherd them. A shepherd in the Gk is another word for Pastor. What a day that will be when we finally have Jesus as our Pastor forever.

For thus says the Lord God: “Indeed I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. 12“As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day. 13“And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land; I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, in the valleys and in all the inhabited places of the country. 14“I will feed them in good pasture, and their fold shall be on the high mountains of Israel. There they shall lie down in a good fold and feed in rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15“I will feed My flock, and I will make them lie down,” says the Lord God. 16“I will seek what was lost and bring back what was driven away, bind up the broken and strengthen what was sick; but I will destroy the fat and the strong, and feed them in judgment.” Ezek 34:11-16




Comments (Page 4)
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on Sep 19, 2007
Attempting to stop the bold . . .


Hi guys....

Could it be that the bold comes from ...

The original article (which is in bold at least on my computer)...

If I copy from that, then the bold seems to hold sway...


on Sep 19, 2007
I don't see anywhere in Scripture of going back to the Old Covenant, the Temple or the Temple sacrifice. Perhaps you do...


no, I don't either. There is no going back. Christ when he pointed to the abomination (Matt 24:15) was talking future. It was a sign of the end. You think it's about 70AD and I read from scripture that it's future end times.

It doesn't fit, it doesn't belong there and it doesn't make sense with the rest of Scripture or with Christ's teachings.


it actually fits perfectly and the reason I've gone from being pre-trib to pre-wrath. It fits much better than pre-trib does.

When we examine Scripture to see what it plainly tells us about Christ's Second Coming for the Final Judgment, it says nothing of getting believers out and it promises no escape from the persecution of the Antichrist.


I never said anything about us escaping the AC. I said repeatedly now many times that it's about escaping God's wrath. We WILL go thru Tribulation and even GREAT Tribulation but we WILL NOT go thru God's wrath. It's for the unbelievers only.
You seem to be having a hard time with this Lula. I don't know how else to say this.

It promises that if they endure to the end by God's grace, they will be saved.


YES. OF THE TRIBULATION. I've already covered this as well. Not God's wrath (who will be able to stand...remember?) Rev 3:10 and 1 Thess 5:9 for starters:

"FOR GOD HAS NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH, BUT TO OBTAIN SALVATION BY OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST."

Let's just agree to disagree Lula. I don't hold to nor do I think the Preterist view makes any sense. You totally skipped v14 in Matt which very clearly states before all this happens the gospel will be reached to the whole world. This hasn't even happened yet. Ever hear of the 10/40 window?

V15 is a clue. It had nothing to do with 70AD. Nothing. The abomination is someone else standing in God's place and God's holy city (Zion) and declaring himself God. This will be the AC in the future.







on Sep 19, 2007
I don't see anywhere in Scripture of going back to the Old Covenant, the Temple or the Temple sacrifice. Perhaps you do...


no, I don't either. There is no going back. Christ when he pointed to the abomination (Matt 24:15) was talking future. It was a sign of the end. You think it's about 70AD and I read from scripture that it's future end times.


OKay, good.

Of St.Matt. 24:15, Christ is speaking in 33AD. The destruction of the Temple which He predicted was the future, just not the distant future...

Are these 8 signs the signs of Christ's Second Coming?

It doesn't fit, it doesn't belong there and it doesn't make sense with the rest of Scripture or with Christ's teachings.


it actually fits perfectly and the reason I've gone from being pre-trib to pre-wrath. It fits much better than pre-trib does.


It ONLY fits if one believes in the Rapture theory...

I place the timing of all the Scriptural passages that you refer to the rapture occuring at Christ's Second Coming and the General Resurrection on the Last Day.

If the rapture of 1Thess.4 occurs on the Last Day, then the only wrath of God that is occurring after that is the Final Judgment (which, btw, I've never seen referred to as GOd's wrath.)


I never said anything about us escaping the AC. I said repeatedly now many times that it's about escaping God's wrath. We WILL go thru Tribulation and even GREAT Tribulation but we WILL NOT go thru God's wrath. It's for the unbelievers only.
You seem to be having a hard time with this Lula. I don't know how else to say this.


I'm sorry about my confusion understanding your position. But with this, I think I understand better. For up until now, I thought your position was that believers escape AntiChrist by being raptured out of here. Here you are clearly saying otherwise.

Now, when you say that "We WILL go thru Tribulation and even GREAT Tribulation but we WILL NOT go thru God's wrath. It's for the unbelievers only."

Does this mean you think believers will not be judged at the Final Judgment? Is that what "will not go through God's wrath" means to you? If it's not the Final Judgment, then when is God's wrath that will be for only unbelievers?

Not God's wrath (who will be able to stand...remember?) Rev 3:10 and 1 Thess 5:9 for starters:

"FOR GOD HAS NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH, BUT TO OBTAIN SALVATION BY OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST."


Citing Rev. 3:10 is of no help becasue if I recall correctly, we disagreed on the interpretation of "who will be able to stand"....

what does "FOR GOD HAS NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH? mean to you? What is wrath here? I clearly don't understand your meaning of wrath.
on Sep 19, 2007
Does this mean you think believers will not be judged at the Final Judgment?


Yes they will NOT be judged at the Final White Throne Judgment at the end of Revelation. They have passed over from life to death when they accepted Christ on THIS side of eternity. That's why it's so important to make a decision for Christ now while we are in the flesh and before we pass over.


For up until now, I thought your position was that believers escape AntiChrist by being raptured out of here. Here you are clearly saying otherwise.


That's a pre-trib position Lula and one that I have hung onto for many years but now that I understand better there's a diff between God's wrath and tribulation I can see it makes more sense that the rapture is AFTER the tribulation.

Is that what "will not go through God's wrath" means to you? If it's not the Final Judgment, then when is God's wrath that will be for only unbelievers?


No, God's wrath is the trumpet judgments that we are just getting into. His wrath really begins with the 7th seal after the time of silence. After the silence comes the wrath of God and the timing of all this is about 3 years (or so). It's over a period of time and we will talk about that in the next segment. but it's after Chap 7 where we saw the multitude in heaven (raptured). It goes like this.

1. Great Tribulation (AC led)
2. Rapture
3. Multitude seen in heaven
4. God's wrath poured out
5. Final Judgment of all unbelievers

Does that help?

Citing Rev. 3:10 is of no help becasue if I recall correctly, we disagreed on the interpretation of "who will be able to stand"....


I don't see the problem here Lula. The question demands a "negative" answer. The answer is no one is able to stand.

what does "FOR GOD HAS NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH? mean to you? What is wrath here? I clearly don't understand your meaning of wrath.


I can see that. You don't understand what the "wrath of God" means or looks like Lula? I'm sure your kids have seen the "wrath of mom" on occasion. I know I've shown my kids that wrath from time to time. It's when you've said...."enough!" No more and then start acting on that statement.

It looks like what happened in Noah's day. It looks like what happened in Lot's Day. It's God saying, ENOUGH! I'm done with this. I'm taking my people, the door is shutting and I'm destroying the earth. God shut Noah up himself and poured his wrath down on the earth via the flood.

Only in Lot's Day it was two cities that were totally corrupt. So it was more of a local thing. But in THAT day it will be a world-wide event. We are just starting to hit upon the wrath of God in Chap 8. We will continue in the next segment.





on Sep 19, 2007
Let's just agree to disagree Lula. I don't hold to nor do I think the Preterist view makes any sense. You totally skipped v14 in Matt which very clearly states before all this happens the gospel will be reached to the whole world. This hasn't even happened yet.


I didn't respond to v. 14 because I was pressed for time. I will address that now.

The Preaching of the gospel was the 7th sign that Jesus warned His disciples that would be linked to the "end" of the Temple. The early Chruch in those days leading up to 70AD certainly understood that the Gospel had been preached to the whole world. My heavens, they all thought Christ's Second Coming was very near, even though He had insisted that the time is unknown. They all thought the end was near. 1Thess. 4:15-17 is a very good example of this as St. Paul was assuring the Thessalonian Christians that those who were alive when the end came wouldn't have any advantage over those who had already died. Thus came the instruction of the General Resurrection.


Besides that, writing under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, St.Paul states in his lifetime, the faith of the Chruch in Rome, "is proclaimed in all the world." Romans 1:8.
Col. 1:5-6, he writes, "You have heard..the gospel...as indeed inthe whole world it is bearing fruit and growing."

Clement was bishop of Rome in 67-73 AD, wrote that St.Peter and Paul had been martyred but not before "they taught righteousness to the whole world and they came to the extreme limit of the west."

I can go on with quoting this same understanding from the writings of the Chruch Fathers, particularly St.Justin Martyr, Eusebuis, and St.Bede.

Also, there are two Greek words used for "world". IN St.Matt. 24, the word "oikoumeme" which specifically means the civilized world delineated at the time by the boundaries of the Roman Empire. To them, in those days, the Gospel was preached to the entire world. Kosmos appears later "from the beginning of the world until now." 24:21. The Apostles certainly knew the usage of the 2 words. Jesus taught His disciples that the 'end' of the Temple would follow the preaching of the Gospel throughout the civilized world, which then, was the Roman Empire.


Does this mean you think believers will not be judged at the Final Judgment?


Yes they will NOT be judged at the Final White Throne Judgment at the end of Revelation.


We will have to agree to disagree upon this one. All will be judged. Christians know that God's judgment can also come upon them, "for the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God." 1St.Peter 4:17.

I agree that if one lives in loving faith and hopes for the Lord, then he will not experience the wrath of God's judgment as eternal damnation. He will be judged and go to eternal bliss...right now to me, everyone will be judged....but, hey, I'm still learning, ...

on Sep 19, 2007

No, God's wrath is the trumpet judgments that we are just getting into. His wrath really begins with the 7th seal after the time of silence. After the silence comes the wrath of God and the timing of all this is about 3 years (or so). It's over a period of time and we will talk about that in the next segment. but it's after Chap 7 where we saw the multitude in heaven (raptured). It goes like this.

1. Great Tribulation (AC led)
2. Rapture
3. Multitude seen in heaven
4. God's wrath poured out
5. Final Judgment of all unbelievers

Does that help?


Yes, somewhat   

If God's wrath in #4 is 3 or so years, then how long is the Great tribulation AC led?

I know the 'great tribulation' that was prophecied by Christ in St.Matt. 24 took 1,260 days for the conquest and fall of the Temple and there was still warfare which took an additional 30 days.
on Sep 19, 2007
Christians know that God's judgment can also come upon them, "for the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God." 1St.Peter 4:17.


Yes Lula. The Christians will appear before the judgment seat of Christ (bema seat) but that is totally diff than the Great White Throne at the end.

Paul says to the Christians (this is important):

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad” (2 Cor. 5:10). “

What is he talking about? Salvation or rewards? There's a diff. Fruit or root?

That every one may receive the things done in his body” These are the things done while you were living down here. “According to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad”—we all must come before Christ’s judgment seat.

Peter continues, “If it first begins at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?”

Christ has paid the penalty for our sins, but suppose that we (as Christians) have lived a life that has not brought glory to Him? You can see Peter mentions the Christian who murders or steal or is a busybody just before the verse you quoted.

We are to be judged. And if God is going to judge His own first, what about the lost world which would not hear or obey the Gospel of God?

But it's not the same judgment as the unbelivers and Peter acknowledges that when he says in v18:

"And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

So the idea is that if even the Christians must be judged what fate must await unbelievers who will be punished for their sins? We will not be punished eternally but we will suffer loss of rewards.





on Sep 19, 2007
If God's wrath in #4 is 3 or so years, then how long is the Great tribulation AC led?


1260 days is about right according to scripture or 3 1/2 yrs. I think we'll hit that coming up somewhere soon. So basically it's going to be hell on earth for the Christians for the first part of this 7 year tribulation if the rapture is about 1/2 way thru.

Like I've said some believe in pre-trib which is before the AC so they have this belief they will escape this time. I hope they're right but I'm thinking it's not going to happen that way. If not, they will be unprepared with unrealistic expectations and think they've missed the boat. Not too many are pre-wrath right now although one lady came up to the Pastor at church and said her son believed it this way. Most I've met are pre-trib.



on Sep 19, 2007
Please, ladies and gentlemen, let this kill the bold.
on Sep 19, 2007
The early Chruch in those days leading up to 70AD certainly understood that the Gospel had been preached to the whole world


Well it looks like they were wrong huh Lula? LOL.

Sidenote: I use a GK dictionary and looked up "abomination of desolation" and found this:

This expression comes from the Book of Daniel. The Greek word for "abomination is "Bdelygma." It means "detestable thing." "Desolation" is "eremosis" which means "making desolate, laying waste." The first reference in Daniel was to the descration of the Temple by erecting an altar to a pagan god. Jesus was probaly referring to the image of the future AC.

I think the best we can maybe find common ground on some is the fact that maybe we can say there was some double fulfillment going on. Jesus is referring to Jerusalem and the end of the world and what is going to happen but he puts some emphasis on Judea.

But keep in mind what Paul said about the man of sin in 2 Thess 2:4

"Let no man deceive you by any means for THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God (like Antiochus) or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God shows himself that he is God."

So see Lula I believe this is the abomination. Similar to Antiochus Epiphanes. Paul is saying this is going to happen first. You may think it's Titus but I think it's far worse than that Roman General. He's going to be Alexander, Titus, Nero, Hitler, Stalin etc all in one.

Who is going to be revealed? Titus, the Roman General? That doesn't make sense.

The only other one called Son of Perdition was Judas. So I believe as many do that this person is going to be in and among the people and then throw off his disguise just as Judas did. Many will follow him and then realize when it's too late, they put their trust in the wrong god. Then he will be revealed.

Perhaps Judas also will be a sort of double fulfillment (seen all thru scripture). Basically there's nothing new under the sun anyway.






on Sep 20, 2007
Christ has paid the penalty for our sins, but suppose that we (as Christians) have lived a life that has not brought glory to Him? ...
We are to be judged. ...
But it's not the same judgment as the unbelivers and Peter acknowledges that when he says in v18:


2 points:

In reply to your first question, Catholics believe if the Christian dies with grevious sin, then his just reward will be eternal death. If the Christian dies with venial sin, then he may be one of those "scarcely saved" as St.Peter was describing in v. 18.

Scripture tells us we will all be judged in the same way, that is, according to our life and love of God and neighbor (or lack of it) on earth. At the Particular Judgment, the one at our death, and again at the Final Judgment, man will receive the just reward due him, according to what he has done, good or evil.

We are to be judged. And if God is going to judge His own first, what about the lost world which would not hear or obey the Gospel of God?

But it's not the same judgment as the unbelivers and Peter acknowledges that when he says in v18:

"And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

So the idea is that if even the Christians must be judged what fate must await unbelievers who will be punished for their sins? We will not be punished eternally but we will suffer loss of rewards.


Again, this doesn't say anything about God judging not in the same way.

Here, after listing the murderer, thief, wrong-doer and mischief maker, St.Peter is exhorting the believers to remember the fate of the impenitent sinner. (don't find yourself in that position he's telling them, for when you die, it will be tooooo late. After death or on the Last Day, whichever comes first..there is no appeal, no last minute attempt to repent, etc.). It's as you say, while you can here on earth, take care of your soul...see that it's right with Almighty God.

The righteous man is saved only "scarcely" means there is a great uncertainity in which the Christian hovers during his lifetime of battle between good and evil on earth. I keep thinking of St.Paul saying to the Phillippians that he by no means reached THE GOAL and that he must still "press on" for THE PRIZE.

The seriousness of the situation is expressed by our Lord Himself and we should not take His words lightly...only they who "endures to the end" will be saved St.Matt. 24:13.

The work of God and the work of man are closely linked. God accomplishes the work of salvation, but this doesn't mean man can sit back and remain idle. The gift of God is a charge and a duty laid upon men, we must pick up our own cross...St.Paul urges insistently, "Work out your salvation in fear and trembling. For it is God who is at work in you." We may never forget that God is his partner in the work of salvation. This partnership will be his perdition if he forgets it.

The message of grace doesn't release man from the duty of moral action, it is rather the first real summons to get going...


Christ has paid the penalty for our sins,


Absolutely, the greatest effort in "saving" us was expended by the Savior and Redeemer. In His public life, He endured poverty, tiring work, wandering year after year, with no home or bed, and finally torture and death on the Cross in order to save us.





on Sep 20, 2007
KFC POSTS: # 35

You're partly right Lula. Rapurists don't believe the Great Trib has started yet. But it's only going to be for a short period of time, not the whole seven years. The Great Tribulation is actually defined in Matt 24:15-21. Notice when the Great Tribulation starts according to Christ. He said it will happen AFTER the abomination of desolation.



And in reply #53 you say:

So basically it's going to be hell on earth for the Christians for the first part of this 7 year tribulation if the rapture is about 1/2 way thru.


Can you see that whenever you insert the extra-Biblical understanding of the Rapture Theory into Scripture, how it always get confusing? Think timing! and the order of last time events...here you have the wrong timing the wrong event.

When did the 'rapture' of 1Thess. 4:15-17 occur? It occurred at the General Resurrection just before the Second Coming of Christ on the Last Day. The 'rapture" of 1Thess 4 is when those who are alive in Christ and those in Christ risen from the dead, now glorified body and soul, are "caught or taken up" in the clouds to meet Christ as He comes down from Heaven in great glory, power and majesty for the Final Judgment.

on Sep 20, 2007
LULA POSTS:
The early Chruch in those days leading up to 70AD certainly understood that the Gospel had been preached to the whole world


Besides that, writing under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, St.Paul states in his lifetime, the faith of the Chruch in Rome, "is proclaimed in all the world." Romans 1:8.
Col. 1:5-6, he writes, "You have heard..the gospel...as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and growing."

KFC POSTS:
Well it looks like they were wrong huh Lula? LOL.


I can understand why you would question the Church Fathers, but ..just something to think about..was St.Paul wrong, KFC?


on Sep 20, 2007
KFC POSTS:
Then you'd have to answer when did the Abomination of Desolation happen according to Matt 24:15.


LULA POSTS:

Here in verse 15, the “abomination of desolation” aka “the desolating sacrilege”, Jesus is referring to a prophecy in Daniel (9:27; 11:31; 12:11) where Daniel foretold that the Syrian king, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, would occupy the Temple. This came to pass and the idol was set up on the altar--a sign of abomination (idolatry) and desolation. Our Lord applies this episode to the future destruction of Jerusalem ---asking people “let the reader understand” to pay more heed to the text of Daniel. Jesus tells them that a new "abomination of desolation" will occur ruining the Temple to make way for idolatrous worship---as happened in 70AD when the Roman armies destroyed and profaned the temple, and later, under Hadrian, who ordered the erection of a statue of Jupiter on the ruins.

So, in short, Daniel's "desolating abomination" is what Antiochus did to the Temple in Jerusalem and the new "abomination of desolation" that Christ refers to in St.Matt. 24:15 occured in 70AD, Daniels' 70th week, when the Roman army profaned the Temple.

I've checked both the Latin and the Greek "abomination of desolation". As used here, it's a phrase that is neuter gender implying the abomination does not necessarily apply to a person, but to an event. Daniel has three places where he uses the phrase which denote intense desolation. It seems to me that the huge Roman army destroying Jerusalem and the Temple, first profaning it and then tearing it down stone by stone, fits the meaning of "intense desolation". The Temple itself, the Temple sacrifice and ceremonial rites was/is no more...that's intense.


Sidenote: I use a GK dictionary and looked up "abomination of desolation" and found this:

This expression comes from the Book of Daniel. The Greek word for "abomination is "Bdelygma." It means "detestable thing." "Desolation" is "eremosis" which means "making desolate, laying waste." The first reference in Daniel was to the descration of the Temple by erecting an altar to a pagan god. Jesus was probaly referring to the image of the future AC.

I think the best we can maybe find common ground on some is the fact that maybe we can say there was some double fulfillment going on. Jesus is referring to Jerusalem and the end of the world and what is going to happen but he puts some emphasis on Judea.


Yes, we've always had common ground as far as our understanding of double fulfillment of prophecy.

As I read it from both the Latin, Greek and here with your take, there is no doubt that the Temple was completely desolated by the Roman army. Using your dictionary language for the meaning of abomination, ...the laying waste and desecration of the Temple was a completely detestable thing by the Roman army in 70AD.

I wonder though, do you think that there could be triple fulfillment? The prophecy of Daniel (9:27; 11:31; 12:11) and Christ's prophecy in St.Matt. 24 the "abomination of desolation" has already been fullfilled. First, by the Syrian king, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who occupied the Temple and set up the idol on the altar--a sign of abomination (idolatry) and desolation. (Interestingly, didn't this battle last 3 1/2 years?)

and again in 70AD, the "abomination of desolation" occurred when the Roman armies surrounded Jerusalem St.Luke 21:20, profaned the Temple, worshipped their eagle ensigns, and their emperor and later, under Hadrian, who ordered the erection of a statue of Jupiter on the ruins for idolatrous worship. This battle lasted 3 1/2 years...from the summer of 66AD when the Roman general Cestius Gallus attacked Jerusalem in response to the cessation of the sacrifices for Nero in the Temple. Vespasian came in 67-69 and then in August 10, 70AD Vespasian's son, Titus, completed the job his father had left undone.


on Sep 20, 2007
But keep in mind what Paul said about the man of sin in 2 Thess 2:4

"Let no man deceive you by any means for THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God (like Antiochus) or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God shows himself that he is God."

So see Lula I believe this is the abomination. Similar to Antiochus Epiphanes. Paul is saying this is going to happen first. You may think it's Titus but I think it's far worse than that Roman General. He's going to be Alexander, Titus, Nero, Hitler, Stalin etc all in one.

Who is going to be revealed? Titus, the Roman General? That doesn't make sense.

The only other one called Son of Perdition was Judas. So I believe as many do that this person is going to be in and among the people and then throw off his disguise just as Judas did. Many will follow him and then realize when it's too late, they put their trust in the wrong god. Then he will be revealed.

Perhaps Judas also will be a sort of double fulfillment (seen all thru scripture). Basically there's nothing new under the sun anyway.


No way, I'm not even going to attempt to predict, guess, who what where when the AC is.
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