When The Trump Sounds-Will You Be Ready?
Published on September 10, 2007 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Religion
Continuing on where we left off we now come to Revelation 7:9-17 which says:

9After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”
13Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” 14And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15“Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16“They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17“for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”


We start off with another worship service not unlike we saw in Chapters 4 & 5 and before the next seal, the 7th, is opened. This is the worship service that will precede the great wrath of God about to overtake the whole world.

In this chapter we see two scenes. First we saw, in the last segment, the 144,000 chosen Jews sealed by God to do the work of God for his special purpose.

This next scene seems to represent all the world. First, we see "after those things." So we can see we're moving along to a different scene. We're moving from one group of people to another. We're going from a specific number to a multitude, a number nobody can number.

The word "behold" is a word of amazement. It's as tho John is saying, "I looked and I can't believe my eyes." He has seen creatures, elders and angels. Now before him is a great multitude, more than he can even number.

We always see two positions before the throne; standing and on their knees. We never see anyone sitting. Notice this multitude is standing before the throne.

Do you remember the promise given to Abraham? Here we see the promise fulfilled. We need to go way back to Genesis 22:16-17 and read:

By Myself I have sworn, says the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son— “blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies.

So John sees all these that are clothed in white. Earlier we saw a rainbow. So in effect what is happening here is one big lightshow is happening. The light from the dazzling colorful rainbow all around the throne is being reflected off all these pure white robes. God's own glory reflects back to him.

The Palm branches are a symbol of victory. These branches were used in the Jewish feasts. The last of the seven feasts mentioned in Lev 23 is called the Feast of Booths, (tabernacles) or Gathering. I believe each one of the seven feasts corresponds to an event in Christ's first or second coming. This last one is associated with the very end of time. We read in Lev 23:40:

And you shall take for yourselves on the first day the fruit of beautiful trees, branches of palm trees, the boughs of leafy trees, and willows of the brook; and you shall rejoice before the Lord your God for seven days.

Notice in v10 a loud voice crying out about salvation. They are recognizing that salvation does indeed come from God. Have you noticed that nothing seems quiet in heaven. Everything seems to happen with a shout. We will see an exception tho soon.

In v11 we see all angels (lots) elders and creatures worship God. They are giving God the glory for what he has done for mankind. Notice the seven fold praise to God as they listed seven attributes of God in this remarkable description of Him. This scene should remind us of Luke 15:10 when Christ said:

“Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Imagine all heaven rejoicing when you finally came to God leaving the world behind. How awesome.

So now we come to v13 with two questions being asked of John. This is so reminiscent of how Christ operated when He walked the earth. He liked to ask questions to get them to thinking. It was also a typical Jewish format and one we see quite often in the OT. For example you can see this question and answer format in Ezek 37 and Zech 4:1-6.

So he asks John "who are these people"? We know they're saved. They have new garments exchanging the old filthy ones for fresh clean pure ones. These robes speak of purity and righteousness. They have been washed in the blood of the lamb. 1 John 1:7 says:

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

The next question asks "where did they come from?"

The answer is they came out of the Great Tribulation. This is the only place and time where the tribulation is called the "Great Tribulation." This is the second half of Daniel's week. This is occurring right after the 6th seal and before the 7th. These are those who have entered heaven. I believe these could quite possibly be those that have been raptured. This would be another way of saying the rapture occurs "pre-wrath." It's not as popular as a "pre-trib rapture" but it may make much more sense when you take Matthew 24 and lay it side by side with what we've been reading thus far in Revelation.

Some say these are those that are saved thru all the ages. Some say these are those saved during the seven year tribulation. If you believe in the pre-trib rapture then you would place the rapture before Revelation 4:1. Others say it's right here. These people are those that have come out of the great tribulation as it is so stated right here in this section.

We can see quite clearly there is an interlude between the 6th & 7th seal. It seems as tho this is the time when God quite possibly is yanking his people out of the world.

This time is also the changing of the guard. It's back to the Jews again. That's why this all starts with the 144,000 Jews being sealed and explains why these questions are now being asked of John. When we look at v9 we see they come from all nations. Usually this speaks of Gentiles, not Jews. So now what we are observing here is the changing of the baton back to the Jews to preach the gospel to their fellow Jews. God is now going to turn back to israel. That's why he's gathered them and set them in their own land today.

The bible says we will have tribulation. He may allow the church to go thru the tribulation but will never allow the church to suffer thru his wrath meant only for unbelievers. The tribulation coming from evil men in this world is much different than wrath poured out from heaven above.

Going back to 6:17 we see that introduces us to chapter 7. When does this all take place? After the six seals have been opened. There will be no Christians on earth when the 7th seal is opened. This is when God's fury and wrath will be poured out and who will be able to stand? Only those 144,000 sealed and protected by God.

Going back to Matthew 24 we see Jesus is sitting with his disciples. These are his followers and whom he is addressing. They are looking for a sign (v3). A sign is something you see. In v13 he says he who endures to the end will be saved? End of what? The tribulation. This makes sense. Those who make it thru the tribulation will be pulled out and saved before the wrath of God. Notice in v22 it says:

"And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened"

What days shortened? It can't be the full seven years or Daniel's 70th week would be void. These shortened days would be the period of the tribulation. It will be cut short for the elect's sake when He will take them out.

Going onto 24:25 Jesus uses the pronoun "you" meaning his disciples. He goes on to say in v31:

"And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

He's telling them he will take them out via the Rapture before it gets really bad. Yes they will go thru tribulation. Yes it's going to be bad. But we are never to worry about what man can do to us. It's what God is able to do to man that should have us trembling. Notice the trumpet is mentioned again as it is in 1 Thess 4:16. The trumpet is very well known in Jewish times to gather God's people together. That's a picture of what we see Jesus is explaining to his disciples here.

Today the church today is mostly teaching a pre-trib rapture theory thanks in part to Tim LaHaye and others. What will happen if the tribulation starts to happen and we're still here? They may start to think they are not believers or that God's promises are not true. Don't be surprised if we do start to go thru some pretty unsettling tribulation to come. We must endure and wait it out and know he will cut short the days when he deems it to be the right time. All in his timing.

After coming out of much turmoil and tears God will comfort them promising them no more hunger and no more thirst. He will shepherd them. A shepherd in the Gk is another word for Pastor. What a day that will be when we finally have Jesus as our Pastor forever.

For thus says the Lord God: “Indeed I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. 12“As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day. 13“And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land; I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, in the valleys and in all the inhabited places of the country. 14“I will feed them in good pasture, and their fold shall be on the high mountains of Israel. There they shall lie down in a good fold and feed in rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15“I will feed My flock, and I will make them lie down,” says the Lord God. 16“I will seek what was lost and bring back what was driven away, bind up the broken and strengthen what was sick; but I will destroy the fat and the strong, and feed them in judgment.” Ezek 34:11-16




Comments (Page 2)
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on Sep 13, 2007
All I'm saying is, life is big on symbolism too. So I really can't see a number in the Bible being MORE IMPORTANT than the number of actual people involved.
on Sep 13, 2007
LULA POSTS:
St.John is writing to the Christians of his day who are undergoing severe tribulation and God's wrath (judgements).


KFC POSTS:
ok let's start here. Show me anywhere in scripture where it says that believers will go thru God's wrath. I've shown you many specific scriptures that say they won't including 3:10.


Let's start by agreeing that when you say God's wrath, it means the same as God's judgements.

The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple is 70AD is a good example of first Christian believers going through tribulation and God's judgments or wrath.

You cite 3:10 when He was addressing the Chruch at Philadelphia. "Becasue you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth."

Does this mean He 'raptured' them out of the world? I don't think so. It means that for those who stayed faithful, He will protect them from the hour of trial.

Now, just for fun, let's discuss how God protected those who were faithful at the hour of trial aka the great tribulation leading up to God's judgment (wrath) in 70AD...the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple at the hands of the Roman army. Remember, that Jesus assured His disciples that they were on the winning side of the battle with evil, but there would be a time when their prospects looked bleak. They would suffer from the effects of famine, persecution, and war in the Great Tribulation. We know the Christians suffered under the Neronian persecution and from the Roman army persecution just before the Temple's destruction. Virtually no one escaped the Roman army alive once the seige began. Those trying to escape were caught, whipped, and then crucified by the Romans. Eusebius writes 500 people or more each day and there weren't any trees left. He also notes not a single Christian was caught within Jerusalem when Titus successfully surrounded the city.
The early Chruch had seen the signs of the fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy. Their faith in Christ's words saved the fledgling Chruch from extinction.

Jesus predicted the total destruction of the Temple and He gave them 8 signs to indicate when to flee to the mountains, to prevent the decimation of His infant Chruch when Jerusalem and the Temple was destroyed in 70AD. Jesus told them when to flee the city of Jerusalem. St.Matt. 24:17-20. Right down to not fleeing on the Sabbath. Why? becasue the gates of Jerusalem would be locked for the Sabbath and prohibition of traveling would be enforced by the Temple authorities.

Jesus' admonition to His disciples was opposed to the instincts every other Israelite. He told His followers to flee to the mountains immediately when they saw the desolating abomination of Daniel, which St.Luke identifies as armies surrounding Jerusalem. The Christians knew then and there they were to flee Jerusalem immediately, not to take what is in the house, or who is in the field, etc.

God's wrath happened in 70AD, and the believers went through it.
on Sep 14, 2007
God's wrath happened in 70AD, and the believers went through it.


First even if were God's wrath (which it wasn't) this affected the Jews, not the Christians. You keep bringing up 70AD and that's not what we are discussing here. You bring that up every single blog on Revelation. It's not about 70AD. It's future.

God's wrath is quite evident because it concerns things outside of man. Like the earthquakes, stars falling from heaven, sun not shining, locusts, the islands falling into the sea etc. We havn't even opened up the 7th seal yet. That's when it really gets going.

What happened in 70AD was tribulation for the Jews. God withdrew his hand of protection over them and in a sense he was allowing this to happen as a logical consequense for thier behavior, but it WAS NOT God's wrath the bible speaks about.

Tribulation usually comes from men against men. We are to expect that. God's wrath is coming down from heaven when he unleashes all nature against man (example: the flood) This is future. We are NOT to expect that.

on Sep 14, 2007
If 144,000 was not numberable, it would not be numbered. It was. End of story.


hahahahah I think this is very wise Jay! Very logical.

I think that the numbers represent something for sure. How many apostles were there? 12. That number means something. But there were only 12. There weren't 100 and they just put in the Bible "12" for the sake of the number having special meaning. The meaning doesn't come from just a number written - it comes from the number of whatever it is. So the 144,000 is either a meaningless number representing a multitude, or it's a meaningful number and will be followed exactly when it happens. The number of hairs on your head may be significant, too, but you can't say "I have 144,000 hairs on my head" unless there are that many, and you've counted. You also then couldn't refer to those 144,000 hairs as a multitude of hairs which no-one can number, because you just numbered them.


how appropriate coming from a "numbers guy." I agree with you.

I like how you take a physical picture to explain things. I've seen you do this before. I try to do that as well but I think you do it better than I do.



on Sep 14, 2007
LULA POSTS:
God's wrath happened in 70AD, and the believers went through it.


KFC POSTS:
First even if were God's wrath (which it wasn't) this affected the Jews, not the Christians. You keep bringing up 70AD and that's not what we are discussing here. You bring that up every single blog on Revelation. It's not about 70AD. It's future.

God's wrath is quite evident because it concerns things outside of man. Like the earthquakes, stars falling from heaven, sun not shining, locusts, the islands falling into the sea etc. We havn't even opened up the 7th seal yet. That's when it really gets going.

What happened in 70AD was tribulation for the Jews. God withdrew his hand of protection over them and in a sense he was allowing this to happen as a logical consequense for thier behavior, but it WAS NOT God's wrath the bible speaks about.


KFC,

This shows a case of pure stubbornness on your part.

You asked :
Show me anywhere in scripture where it says that believers will go thru God's wrath. I've shown you many specific scriptures that say they won't including 3:10.


and that's what I did.

You seem to want to attribute all the happenings, events, tribulations, etc, only to the Jews in the years leading up to 70AD. Why?

The Book of Acts tells us much about the people of the New Covenant and how they went out and spread the Gospel converting many and history itself tells us more. The Jews and Gentiles who converted to Christianity by 70AD WERE THERE TOO. They lived through suffering, earthquakes, trials, etc. including God's judgment on the Sanhedrin. He saved those who would listen (the fledgling Chruch) when to flee Jerusalem. The Jews who died there were amongst those whom wouldn't listen to Him. Jesus quoted Daniel at His trial before the Sanhedrin that they would see the day when He comes to judge them. And they did. Jesus' prophecy was fulfilled in 70AD. God came to judge the Jews in 70AD in the form of the Roman army...(and the Christians already warned by Jesus had fled to the mountains and were saved.) How can you say it WAS NOT God's wrath the bible speaks about?

Same thing in Isaias 19:1-2 and 20: 1-6. "The Lord is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt; and the idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence." In the fullfillment of this passage, God comes to judge the false idols---how--in the form of the Assyrian army. God promises He is coming to Egypt and the Egyptians witness a conquering army.

This is the same language as Daniel, "with the clouds of Heaven there came one like a son of man." This can't be a coincidence. God came to as Judge and here at His trial, quoting Daniel, He's telling the Sanhdedrin the Son of man is coming to judge. Just as God judged Egypt with the Assyrian army, He judged the Jews with the Roman army. It's all there, don't be stubborn on this one.   

St.John's Apocalypse focuses mainly on the battle between good and evil of God's New Covenant people (which include those Jews who converted) starting at the time of his writing going forward through all the ages until the consummation of the world.





on Sep 14, 2007
We havn't even opened up the 7th seal yet. That's when it really gets going.


Yes, this is true..but what's it going to tell us?

The scroll's opening reveals the mystery of the Messianic Kingdom.

The opening of the six seals is linked with the trumpets by having the seventh seal contain all seven trumpets.

So what does that mean? To me, it means that we are going to get more details of the same events but from another perspective.

Just as we examined the seals from the standpoint of St.Matt. 24, the same with the trumpets. In the trumpets, we are going to look at the same things we saw in the seals only from a different perspective.

The six seals view the coming judgment of Christ from Christ's perspective, the trumpets view these from the view's of those judged first through the eyes of the Sanhedrin and then to future mankind.

These smaller themes build up to Apocalype's main message which is in chapter 20.

You read Apocalypse as, except the first few chapters, all in the far distant future and I read it as looking to the future by examining the past and near future. Only the very last couple of chapters are meant to be looked at as future.


KFC POSTS:
Tribulation usually comes from men against men. We are to expect that. God's wrath is coming down from heaven when he unleashes all nature against man (example: the flood) This is future. We are NOT to expect that.


So here tribulation would be persecution..as in what Nero and Domitian (antichrist types) persecuted the early Christians. IN the future, the Antichrist will persecute Christians.

You think believers will be raptured away and not have to persevere through this coming time of persecution, and I say we'll all be here but through God's grace and mercy protected in some way. I say this is happening right now as we speak...as the Millenium began with Christ and will continue until the consummation of the world.

Scripture has shown that God's wrath (judgments) can come to man by means of men against men as you say. When He unleashes all nature it will be future; indeed it will be at the very end of the world. Throughout the Millenium, there will be natural disasters, the hurricanes, earthquakes, etc. The people of Indonesia have suffered through its 3rd earthquake in the last two days.

on Sep 14, 2007
LULA POSTS:
Rapture teachers claim that Christians must be snatched from the world becasue God has promised them an escape from 'great tribulation' of the last days


No, NO, NO. Lula. I've said repeatedly they WON"T escape tribulation but ONLY God's wrath. Two diff things. I keep saying this. Why can't you hear this? So no....rapture teachers like me DON"T teach this. You're reading this aren't you? From somewhere? Now, pre-tribulation rapture believers would believe they are escaping the trib and the wrath of God. But that's ONLY pre-trib rapture believers.


I'm telling you true that I get all dis-combobulated when I see words, like pre-trib, mid-trib, post, etc!

So, let's discuss what you keep saying....cause I know you believe somewhere in here you'll be raptured away...

So help me out.

You say, "they WON"T escape tribulation but ONLY God's wrath. Two diff things."

Assuming that Tribulation is persecution and God's wrath is God's judgment.

I think we may agree on believers not escaping tribulation, but don't understand when, how, where, why believers will escape God's wrath.



on Sep 14, 2007
Lula Posts:
Jesus prophecied that the Chruch will suffer tribulation, and He promised the one who in the time of trial, "who perseveres to the end will be saved."


KFC POSTS:
yes, I agree with you here. But the question is.....the end of what? Tribulation? God's wrath?


KFC,

Persevere to the end means: to the end of either your life or persevere to the end of the world and Second Coming which ever comes first. Those who persevere to the end of what: the the end of the battle of good vs. evil (sin).

If with our Lord's grace and protection, we are successful in persevering in the faith, that is, if we stand the test, run the race to the finish, through trials, suffering, persectuion, tribulation, etc. whatever evil or trial comes our way, then our Lord tells our fidelity will be rewarded in Heaven.



KFC, you say, If you look here you see all these people standing before the throne.....BEFORE God's wrath is poured out on the earth (read 3:10 again). Who are they?

To say this, you must be taking St.John verse by verse, chapter by chapter chronologically. Yet, we know that sometimes events overlap, duplicate and are even isolated from one another chronologically.

You cite 3:10 "Becasue you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth."


This is Christ's assurance that for those who stay faithful and persevere in faith to the end, He will protect them from the hour of trial. This doesn't mean He 'raptured' them out of the world to avoid His judgments upon the world.

In 7:9-17, the second part of the interlude, St. John is shown the great multitude “clothed in white robes” at the throne of God. Here St.John is shown all the people who are in Heaven.
After they had battled victoriously, with God’s help and protection (seal), through all the ordeals and tribulations of the earth, arrived at their final goal...eternal life in Heaven. Its the vision given to St.John where God is showing him HIs promise delivered in its fullest and final sense.

Those people in the first century, the second, the third, all suffering great times of persecution, and yes, forwarding through all times to now and in the future can be absolutely sure that God keeps His promise, by this vision of St.John's --who was shown and wrote down that those who persevere in faith to the end will be in Heaven around the throne forever praising the Lamb of God.
on Sep 14, 2007
LULA POSTS:
the specific number in the first scene is the same number in the second, only we now learn a little more about that specific number--- it’s a great multitude which no one can number.



are you serious? Are you saying this with a straight face? What you're saying is the 144,000 is really not specific but later when the "great multitude which no man can number" is specific and is the same as saying 144,000? This sounds backwards to me Lula. Also then think about this...... how come it says 12,000 OUT OF each tribe? Isn't that specific?


You know me..I'm a serious, straight faced...but fun type of person..


and this is the fun people have when one thinks the number is literal and the other one thinks it's symbolic to mean a complete number that only GOd Himself knows what number that is.

To me, the "great multitude which no man can number" means the number of those who pesevered to the end in the good fight of faith and are now in Heaven. It is the very same as the 144,000 when taken symbolically to mean the whole, complete number.

To me, the great multitude comes from "every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues", is symbolic of the population of Heaven, the Church Triumphant.

Apoc. 6:9-11 in which the martyred saints are given white robes as they wait for their brethren on earth to die and join them in Heaven. This latest vision completes this one giving more details and descrition of this heavenly population. These are the same matryred saints only this time they are said to come out of the great tribulation. This is an added description to 'those who had been slain for the word of God." in Apoc. 6:9.

The 'great tribulation' is the battle on earth that the Chruch Militant is presently waging against the forces of evil. When the saints have died and fulfilled their part in the battle, they will be rewarded with heavenly bliss. On earth there is only 144,000 taking part in the battle, (again to me this is symbolic of a small and specific number of people) but of the Chruch Triumphant in Heaven there is a multitude from every nation, since this population comprises all the OT and NT saints of history that have died and whose souls have gone to Heaven.

Since the number of the saved is unknown it is characterized here as a number no one could number.

In other words, it's a symbolic way of saying that the number of heavenly saints is vastly greater than the small army of Christians on earth.
on Sep 14, 2007
So when God said he created the earth in 7 days he didn't really mean it? When Christ was in the tomb for three days, he really didn't mean it? When it rained for 40 days and nights with Noah in the ARK it wasn't really that amount of time? At one point do you take one number literally and another symbolically?


oh c'mon...you are really straining after gnats here!

Besides, you don't want to get me going on who takes what verse literally, do we? I'm thinking of St.John 6:25-59.
on Sep 15, 2007
KFC pOSTS:
What you're saying is the 144,000 is really not specific but later when the "great multitude which no man can number" is specific and is the same as saying 144,000? This sounds backwards to me Lula. Also then think about this...... how come it says 12,000 OUT OF each tribe? Isn't that specific?



Apocalypse is filled with symbolism especially the numbers.

RE: the 12,000....

Just as 144,000 is, that's symbolic too.

Apoc. 7:3-4 first tells us the number 144,000 sealed "servants of God", a symbolic number to illustrate the symbolic sense of the Christian Church and its battle against evil in the world. The 12 tribes as numbered in Numbers 1:20-46 total 603,550. In 2:1-34 this number is repeated in divisions of 4 groups. But we don't see that 603,550 warriors are sealed, only 144,000. In other words, symbolically representing all those who have been sealed, (I'd say baptised) Christians and conscripted in God's service and serve Him faithfully.

The 144,000 seems small in comparison in the battle against the world's numbers. Similiar thing in Judges 7:1-18, Gideon desired 32,000 men and God gave him only 300. With God's help and protection, the enemy will be soundly defeated.

V.6-8 gives us more detailed information of the same tribes sealed with the symbolism of the 12,000. There were actually 14 tribes since the tribe of Joseph was split. Yet, St.John's vision lists 12 tribes probably due to the significance of the numbers 12 and 144. We'll see the numbers 12 and 144 again in Apoc. 21:12-27.
Here there is also a connection regarding the 24 ancients, of Apoc. 4-5.

Another comparison is just as there were 14 tribes, there were also 14 Apostles, since the addition of St. Matthias and St.Paul to the orignial number.



The most we can say with complete assurance is that everything is somehow connected together for God's plan of salvation to come to its fullness at the end of the world which is what the Apocalypse's main theme is. All of the reading in-between are parts of the main theme. Sometimes I liken it to going through a maze to put a puzzle together.

PS

Regardless of whether or not we agree or disagree on some of the finer points of interpretation, which I think is par for the course in discussing Revelation, I want to thank you again for your writing and giving us an opportunity to read St.John in such an interesting manner.


on Sep 15, 2007
[
You asked :Show me anywhere in scripture where it says that believers will go thru God's wrath. I've shown you many specific scriptures that say they won't including 3:10. and that's what I did.


No you didn't. You gave me NO scripture. You just keep bringing up 70 AD. God said many times his own will NOT go thru his wrath. We have examples of this in NOAH, ABRAHAM, LOT. When God's wrath came down from heaven they were TAKEN out first. That's what I'm saying about end times as well. Before this 7th Seal, his own WILL BE taken out first. I've given you 3:10 as well as many other scriptures along the way that says we will not be included in God's wrath. You have NOT given me anything to back up your thought other than 70AD. That was NOT God's wrath being poured out from heaven BTW. That was a time of tribulation (one of many) that come to people on the earth. God just takes his hand of protection off and let's man do to man whatever it is they desire to do (usually not a good thing) for whatever reason he has in mind.

Even in 70AD the Christians fled and settled in and around Asia Minor. I believe they DID HAVE the hand of God protecting them even during this destruction of Jerusalem, but it still was NOT God's wrath poured out on Jerusalem.

You think believers will be raptured away and not have to persevere through this coming time of persecution, and I say we'll all be here but through God's grace and mercy protected in some way.


yes that's right. But it's not persecution but God's wrath. Big diff.

Some way? What way? I'm talking about God's wrath coming down on the earth from above.


To me, the "great multitude which no man can number" means the number of those who pesevered to the end in the good fight of faith and are now in Heaven. It is the very same as the 144,000 when taken symbolically to mean the whole, complete number


you say "to me" so it's your opinion? I'm saying it's very clear right there. It says these are those who have come out of the GREAT TRIBULATION. This is the only time where this is called the "Great" tribulation. So while we agree they are in heaven we seem to disagree on WHO they are.

I think we may agree on believers not escaping tribulation, but don't understand when, how, where, why believers will escape God's wrath


Yes we do agree on this first part. Believers have in the past had tribulations in the world and will continue to do so. There is going to be a GREAT tribulation tho that Christ and John spoke of. We who endure to the end will be saved thru it. Others will die first. Then the rapture will happen (1 Thess 4 and right here during this time in Revelation) to get the believers out before the wrath of God is unleashed. Then there will be silence in heaven (8:1) before God's wrath comes down.

Regardless of whether or not we agree or disagree on some of the finer points of interpretation, which I think is par for the course in discussing Revelation, I want to thank you again for your writing and giving us an opportunity to read St.John in such an interesting manner.


My pleasure Lula. It sure is interesting.

on Sep 15, 2007
God said many times his own will NOT go thru his wrath. We have examples of this in NOAH, ABRAHAM, LOT. When God's wrath came down from heaven they were TAKEN out first.



No, KFC, they weren't taken out; they were protected from it.

Noah and his family weren't taken out from the flood. They went through it. They listened to God and by His protection, they endured the 40 days and nights of rain, they endured the deluge.

God's wrath came down on the people of Sodom and Gomorrah. Lot and his family weren't taken out. They listened to God and by His protection they knew when and in what way to leave the city.

In the days of Moses, God's wrath came down upon the Egyptians. The Israelites weren't taken out. They went through it. They listened to God and by His protection, they signed their houses with blood.


Christians, at the end of the world, won't be taken out from God's wrath but be protected from it...much the very same way He has been protecting His people all through salvation history.
on Sep 15, 2007
To me, the "great multitude which no man can number" means the number of those who pesevered to the end in the good fight of faith and are now in Heaven. It is the very same as the 144,000 when taken symbolically to mean the whole, complete number


you say "to me" so it's your opinion?


Yes, it's my opinion...nothing dogmatic stated at all.
on Sep 15, 2007
No, KFC, they weren't taken out; they were protected from it.


You might be interested to know that some believe that Noah is an example of one who will be on the earth during those end times, yet protected, as Noah was protected and sealed in the boat. Enoch was an example of one "taken out" of the world similar to what is to happen in the ent time rapture.

But I see Noah was taken out and protected via the ark. Lot was "taken out" of Sodom before God's wrath came down. Now they weren't raptured. I understand that but regardless they were removed before God's wrath was unleashed. He moved them out.

I believe from reading scripture the Christains will also be "removed" via the rapture instead of an ark. That's the only diff.

Another thought here (sidetrack) I imagine Noah was very poor using all his resources in building that Ark. He gave it all to God, his time, energy and money. But after the flood he was the richest man alive. He owned the whole earth. Imagine that!!

Christians, at the end of the world, won't be taken out from God's wrath but be protected from it...much the very same way He has been protecting His people all through salvation history.


How? God's wrath is nothing like what has been happening in salvation history. It's totally different. It's going to affect the physical world. His wrath will be poured out "without mixture" it says in Revelation.

I believe he'll have to remove us before he does these upcoming things.

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