When The Trump Sounds-Will You Be Ready?
Published on September 10, 2007 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Religion
Continuing on where we left off we now come to Revelation 7:9-17 which says:

9After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”
13Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” 14And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15“Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16“They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17“for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”


We start off with another worship service not unlike we saw in Chapters 4 & 5 and before the next seal, the 7th, is opened. This is the worship service that will precede the great wrath of God about to overtake the whole world.

In this chapter we see two scenes. First we saw, in the last segment, the 144,000 chosen Jews sealed by God to do the work of God for his special purpose.

This next scene seems to represent all the world. First, we see "after those things." So we can see we're moving along to a different scene. We're moving from one group of people to another. We're going from a specific number to a multitude, a number nobody can number.

The word "behold" is a word of amazement. It's as tho John is saying, "I looked and I can't believe my eyes." He has seen creatures, elders and angels. Now before him is a great multitude, more than he can even number.

We always see two positions before the throne; standing and on their knees. We never see anyone sitting. Notice this multitude is standing before the throne.

Do you remember the promise given to Abraham? Here we see the promise fulfilled. We need to go way back to Genesis 22:16-17 and read:

By Myself I have sworn, says the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son— “blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies.

So John sees all these that are clothed in white. Earlier we saw a rainbow. So in effect what is happening here is one big lightshow is happening. The light from the dazzling colorful rainbow all around the throne is being reflected off all these pure white robes. God's own glory reflects back to him.

The Palm branches are a symbol of victory. These branches were used in the Jewish feasts. The last of the seven feasts mentioned in Lev 23 is called the Feast of Booths, (tabernacles) or Gathering. I believe each one of the seven feasts corresponds to an event in Christ's first or second coming. This last one is associated with the very end of time. We read in Lev 23:40:

And you shall take for yourselves on the first day the fruit of beautiful trees, branches of palm trees, the boughs of leafy trees, and willows of the brook; and you shall rejoice before the Lord your God for seven days.

Notice in v10 a loud voice crying out about salvation. They are recognizing that salvation does indeed come from God. Have you noticed that nothing seems quiet in heaven. Everything seems to happen with a shout. We will see an exception tho soon.

In v11 we see all angels (lots) elders and creatures worship God. They are giving God the glory for what he has done for mankind. Notice the seven fold praise to God as they listed seven attributes of God in this remarkable description of Him. This scene should remind us of Luke 15:10 when Christ said:

“Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Imagine all heaven rejoicing when you finally came to God leaving the world behind. How awesome.

So now we come to v13 with two questions being asked of John. This is so reminiscent of how Christ operated when He walked the earth. He liked to ask questions to get them to thinking. It was also a typical Jewish format and one we see quite often in the OT. For example you can see this question and answer format in Ezek 37 and Zech 4:1-6.

So he asks John "who are these people"? We know they're saved. They have new garments exchanging the old filthy ones for fresh clean pure ones. These robes speak of purity and righteousness. They have been washed in the blood of the lamb. 1 John 1:7 says:

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

The next question asks "where did they come from?"

The answer is they came out of the Great Tribulation. This is the only place and time where the tribulation is called the "Great Tribulation." This is the second half of Daniel's week. This is occurring right after the 6th seal and before the 7th. These are those who have entered heaven. I believe these could quite possibly be those that have been raptured. This would be another way of saying the rapture occurs "pre-wrath." It's not as popular as a "pre-trib rapture" but it may make much more sense when you take Matthew 24 and lay it side by side with what we've been reading thus far in Revelation.

Some say these are those that are saved thru all the ages. Some say these are those saved during the seven year tribulation. If you believe in the pre-trib rapture then you would place the rapture before Revelation 4:1. Others say it's right here. These people are those that have come out of the great tribulation as it is so stated right here in this section.

We can see quite clearly there is an interlude between the 6th & 7th seal. It seems as tho this is the time when God quite possibly is yanking his people out of the world.

This time is also the changing of the guard. It's back to the Jews again. That's why this all starts with the 144,000 Jews being sealed and explains why these questions are now being asked of John. When we look at v9 we see they come from all nations. Usually this speaks of Gentiles, not Jews. So now what we are observing here is the changing of the baton back to the Jews to preach the gospel to their fellow Jews. God is now going to turn back to israel. That's why he's gathered them and set them in their own land today.

The bible says we will have tribulation. He may allow the church to go thru the tribulation but will never allow the church to suffer thru his wrath meant only for unbelievers. The tribulation coming from evil men in this world is much different than wrath poured out from heaven above.

Going back to 6:17 we see that introduces us to chapter 7. When does this all take place? After the six seals have been opened. There will be no Christians on earth when the 7th seal is opened. This is when God's fury and wrath will be poured out and who will be able to stand? Only those 144,000 sealed and protected by God.

Going back to Matthew 24 we see Jesus is sitting with his disciples. These are his followers and whom he is addressing. They are looking for a sign (v3). A sign is something you see. In v13 he says he who endures to the end will be saved? End of what? The tribulation. This makes sense. Those who make it thru the tribulation will be pulled out and saved before the wrath of God. Notice in v22 it says:

"And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened"

What days shortened? It can't be the full seven years or Daniel's 70th week would be void. These shortened days would be the period of the tribulation. It will be cut short for the elect's sake when He will take them out.

Going onto 24:25 Jesus uses the pronoun "you" meaning his disciples. He goes on to say in v31:

"And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

He's telling them he will take them out via the Rapture before it gets really bad. Yes they will go thru tribulation. Yes it's going to be bad. But we are never to worry about what man can do to us. It's what God is able to do to man that should have us trembling. Notice the trumpet is mentioned again as it is in 1 Thess 4:16. The trumpet is very well known in Jewish times to gather God's people together. That's a picture of what we see Jesus is explaining to his disciples here.

Today the church today is mostly teaching a pre-trib rapture theory thanks in part to Tim LaHaye and others. What will happen if the tribulation starts to happen and we're still here? They may start to think they are not believers or that God's promises are not true. Don't be surprised if we do start to go thru some pretty unsettling tribulation to come. We must endure and wait it out and know he will cut short the days when he deems it to be the right time. All in his timing.

After coming out of much turmoil and tears God will comfort them promising them no more hunger and no more thirst. He will shepherd them. A shepherd in the Gk is another word for Pastor. What a day that will be when we finally have Jesus as our Pastor forever.

For thus says the Lord God: “Indeed I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. 12“As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day. 13“And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land; I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, in the valleys and in all the inhabited places of the country. 14“I will feed them in good pasture, and their fold shall be on the high mountains of Israel. There they shall lie down in a good fold and feed in rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15“I will feed My flock, and I will make them lie down,” says the Lord God. 16“I will seek what was lost and bring back what was driven away, bind up the broken and strengthen what was sick; but I will destroy the fat and the strong, and feed them in judgment.” Ezek 34:11-16




Comments (Page 5)
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on Sep 20, 2007
No way, I'm not even going to attempt to predict, guess, who what where when the AC is.


neither am I but somehow this son of perdition is going to be similar to Judas who also was called son of perdition....basically meaning Satan's indwelling of him as we saw with Judas.

Can you see that whenever you insert the extra-Biblical understanding of the Rapture Theory into Scripture, how it always get confusing? Think timing! and the order of last time events...here you have the wrong timing the wrong event.


First off, it's not extra-biblical and second it's not the wrong timing. It's clear and we've been going over this so much it's only getting confusing because you're pieceing things from here and there that don't go together.

The Rapture is NOT confusing at all. You're making it that way because you don't want to believe in it. It's pretty easy like I've outlined many times. God is going to pour out his wrath, but before he does, he takes us out. Pretty simple. John saw this in the great multitude of 7:9.

I can only give you what scripture is saying. Don't believe it if you don't want. But it's there.

When did the 'rapture' of 1Thess. 4:15-17 occur? It occurred at the General Resurrection just before the Second Coming of Christ on the Last Day. The 'rapture" of 1Thess 4 is when those who are alive in Christ and those in Christ risen from the dead, now glorified body and soul, are "caught or taken up" in the clouds to meet Christ as He comes down from Heaven in great glory, power and majesty for the Final Judgment.


Well it doesn't mesh with 7:9 nor does it make sense with 1 Thess 5:9 or Rev 3:10 and other scriptures. What you are saying is that we are going thru God's wrath and I'm saying ....no way!! So how about, you stick around and tell me about it? I'm going up before the heat gets turned up on earth.

on Sep 20, 2007
neither am I but somehow this son of perdition is going to be similar to Judas who also was called son of perdition....basically meaning Satan's indwelling of him as we saw with Judas.


I tend to agree.


KFC posts #51:

1. Great Tribulation (AC led)
2. Rapture
3. Multitude seen in heaven
4. God's wrath poured out
5. Final Judgment of all unbelievers


Can you see that whenever you insert the extra-Biblical understanding of the Rapture Theory into Scripture,


This is why I call it extra-Biblical...

Look at your scenario of events above..

YOU have the rapture at #2 and according to 1Thess 4: 15-17, believers are caught up (raptured) in the clouds to meet Christ which means He comes down from Heaven because our clouds are not in Heaven.

Now look at #5 and see that you have the Final Judgment which is Christ's Second Coming to judge the living and the dead.

In this scenario, you have it that Christ returns in # 2 for the rapture and again in # 5 for the Final Judgment..That's extra-Biblical or unBiblical, take your pick.

Scripture tells us of Christ Coming twice. THe first time in a lowly manger and the second time as Judge in great power and might. Not 2 and a half times or 3 times as you describe here.

The rapture of the elect in 1Thess.4:15-17 occurs on the Last Day just after the General Resurrection which is just before the Final Judgment.

on Sep 20, 2007
So how about, you stick around and tell me about it? I'm going up before the heat gets turned up on earth.


Well, all I know is we are both still here discussing and will be as long as our Lord wants us here...  



on Sep 20, 2007
Look at your scenario of events above..

YOU have the rapture at #2 and according to 1Thess 4: 15-17, believers are caught up (raptured) in the clouds to meet Christ which means He comes down from Heaven because our clouds are not in Heaven.

Now look at #5 and see that you have the Final Judgment which is Christ's Second Coming to judge the living and the dead.

In this scenario, you have it that Christ returns in # 2 for the rapture and again in # 5 for the Final Judgment..That's extra-Biblical or unBiblical, take your pick.


I agree with what you said when you said we will meet him in the air. #5 is coming after the 1,000 years is over so there is a time frame involved. All you have to do is look carefully at Chap 20 to see this. been thru this before Lula.

So yes, I have Christ lifting us up by meeting us in the air way back somewhere in chap 7 of Revelation. Then yes, I have him returning as in the second coming in Chap 19 of Revelation. So, it's not extra biblical. When he comes back in 19 it's coming to the earth. One time he meets us in the air to take us with him to heaven like he promised in John 14 (I go away and prepare a place for you). Then he returns later to fight the battle against the unbelievers in Chap 19. This time he brings his saints with him. There is definitely two different occurrances going on when you read scripture.

Then after all this happens comes the 1,000 years and then comes the White Throne Judgment. So I could have made it #5 (1,000 years) and #6 (Judgment) but I wasn't trying to be minute here, but just give you a quick time line on what we were discussing at the time. I mean I can be more specific and have 1-10 if you'd like.

Scripture tells us of Christ Coming twice. THe first time in a lowly manger and the second time as Judge in great power and might. Not 2 and a half times or 3 times as you describe here.


Are you positive? Can you even imagine he's coming ONCE for his believers and another time for the unbelievers? When you have a harvest what do you do? Do you pick both wheat and tare together and put them together. Or...do you pick the fruit and leave the tares? This is likened to an end time harvest all over the place.

The rapture of the elect in 1Thess.4:15-17 occurs on the Last Day just after the General Resurrection which is just before the Final Judgment


Really? And it says specifically that the Rapture is on THE LAST DAY? Hmmmm. I don't recall this Lula. Now who's being extra biblical here? Show me.

hey, another thing to notice is the fact that Paul after those words in 4:15-17 says to "comfort one another" with these words. This is very important. Because if we thought we were going thru the wrath of God (with the unbelievers) it wouldn't make sense that this would be a comforting message. Now, if he's telling us that the next step is Christ coming for us first, then these are genuine words of comfort.

He then goes on to say this day will be like a thief in the night which is quite diff than what Christ described as "every eye shall see him" as lightening in the sky (Matt 24). The reason? Because there is two diff things going on here and they cannot be reconciled as the same "coming."





on Sep 21, 2007
KFC POSTS:
1. Great Tribulation (AC led)
2. Rapture
3. Multitude seen in heaven
4. God's wrath poured out
5. Final Judgment of all unbelievers



KFC,

You have the rapture at #2 which is based on 1Thess 4:16-17,

"For the Lord Himself will descend from Heaven with a cry of command with the archangels call and with the sound of a trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive who are left shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord."

The only way to fully understand this passage is in it's entire context going back to 4:13. In the preceding verses, because the Thessalonian Christians believed the end could come in their time, they were distressed over the fate of those Christians who had died. St.Paul points out that just as Christ returned from the dead at His Resurrection, so also, at the end of time, His followers who have died will be restored through resurrection v 14. At the Second Coming, the Christian dead will be raised v16. Then they and the faithful who are still alive will be caught up into the clouds to welcome Christ as He descends v 17.

Verse 17 seen in full context doesn't support the Rapture Theory or being a separate event as your #2 suggests. There is nothing there to reference a Great Tribulation before, mid or afterwards. 1Thess. 4: 16-17 refers to something that will happen as part of the Lord’s Second Coming on the Last Day.

KFC POSTS:
I agree with what you said when you said we will meet him in the air.



We agree that St. Paul speaks of a rapture, in the sense of a carrying up into the clouds of the righteous. IT'S THE TIMING OF the rapture of 1THESS 4 THAT'S PARAMOUNT. Only the Rapture theorists who have bought the ideas of Darby, Scofield, Lindsey, Walvoord and LaHaye put the Rapture as a separate event. For one to believe this, one must also believe that Christ returns two and a half or 3 times...and that's the rub...that cannot be supported by Scripture and there is simply no getting around that fact.

St. Paul didn't see 1Thess. 4 as a separate event. He saw it as one which accompanies Christ’s Second Coming which immediately precedes the Final White Throne Judgment on the Last Day.

Christians don't escape tribulation, the great tribulation and they don't escape God's Judgment at the Final White Throne Judgment. We are told by Christ in Apoc. 3:10-12 to persevere that we might not lose our crown.
on Sep 21, 2007
LULA POSTS:
Scripture tells us of Christ Coming twice. THe first time in a lowly manger and the second time as Judge in great power and might. Not 2 and a half times or 3 times as you describe here.

KFC POSTS:

Are you positive? Can you even imagine he's coming ONCE for his believers and another time for the unbelievers?


Yes, KFC, on this one I'm positive.   I'm thumbs up positive. My best understanding of the teachings of Sacred Scripture is that there are only two Advents of Christ. His First and Second Coming. Christ's First Advent started it all by capitulating humanity into "the last days"...and His Second Advent finishes it all on the Last Day.
on Sep 21, 2007
He then goes on to say this day will be like a thief in the night which is quite diff than what Christ described as "every eye shall see him" as lightening in the sky (Matt 24). The reason? Because there is two diff things going on here and they cannot be reconciled as the same "coming."


Both St.Paul and Christ are describing Christ's Second COming..just in different ways...

StPaul is saying we don't know when, we can't know the day and hour just that He will come again when we least expect it... like a thief in the night...

Christ is saying that when He comes it will be a very public event..no one will miss it...

We don't know when the lightening is going to strike, but when it does all see it...
on Sep 21, 2007
Verse 17 seen in full context doesn't support the Rapture Theory or being a separate event as your #2 suggests. There is nothing there to reference a Great Tribulation before, mid or afterwards. 1Thess. 4: 16-17 refers to something that will happen as part of the Lord’s Second Coming on the Last Day.


Why doesn't it? Why doesn't v17 support it?

Also who are those in Revelation 7:9 before the 7th seal is opened?

As far as reference to a Great Tribulation you only have to continue reading in Thess 5:1 when he says...."But of the times and the seasons, brothers yu have no need that I write to you."

This wasn't his motive. He wasn't teaching about the Great Tribulation. He wasn't writing of the end times like John would do later. Look at 1:10 while you're at it.....

"And to wait for His Son from heaven whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus which delivered us from the WRATH TO COME!."

One of the purposes of this letter was to answer the question about what happens to Christians who die beffore the return of the Lord. They expected that Christ would return soon after he ascended. When he tarried they started to get a bit worried especially after they saw some of them dying.
on Sep 22, 2007
LULA POSTS:
Verse 17 seen in full context doesn't support the Rapture Theory


KFC POSTS:
Why doesn't it? Why doesn't v17 support it?


We agree that 1Thess. 4:15-17 describes a "rapture" in the sense of a carrying up into the clouds of the righteous...ONLY St. Paul didn't mean it to be taken as the Rapture Theory developed by the ideas of Darby, Scofield, Lindsey, Walvoord and LaHaye. These are fanciful, not Scriptural.

The very crux of the matter is that for one to believe the Rapture Theory, one must also believe that Christ returns two and a half or 3 times...St.Paul didn't believe this..and it's not supported by Scripture when taken in its full context. There is simply no getting around this fact.

St.Paul was responding to the Thessalonian Christian's cares and woes concerning whether the dead will be under any disadvantage from those who are still alive when the Parousia of our Lord happens, (HIs Second Coming). His reply 1Thess.4 corresponds to and addresses Christ's Second Coming...not the tribulation, pre-trib, mid-trib or post trib or God's wrath as you say. Yet, Rapture theorists have taken this one verse, v. 17 and made a whole new extra-Biblical theological system around it.
on Sep 22, 2007
One of the purposes of this letter was to answer the question about what happens to Christians who die beffore the return of the Lord. They expected that Christ would return soon after he ascended. When he tarried they started to get a bit worried especially after they saw some of them dying.


Yes, we agreeon this.

And....in 1Thess. 4:15-17, St.Paul's answers them by saying we will have no advantage, v. 15-18, then he makes it clear we don't know when Christ's Second Coming will be 5:1-2, although he gives them/us some signs which will mark our Lord's Parousia using the same imagery of apocalyptic writing--the voice of the archangel, the sound of the trumpet, the clouds in Heaven, etc.

He tells them when our Lord comes in all His glory, those who had died in the Lord (who already were enjoying the vision of God in Heaven), and those who have been "transfigured" (changed) will go to meet the Lord "in the air" for both will now have glorified, immortal bodies, 1Cor.15:43.

Immediately after the resurrection of the just and unjust will be the Final Judgment on the Last Day. After that, the 'righteous' will be 'always with the Lord"...this is in fact, the reward of the blessed to enjoy forever, in body and soul, the sight of God.
The sufferings, trials, tribulations in this life are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. Rom. 8:18.
on Sep 22, 2007
Immediately after the resurrection of the just and unjust will be the Final Judgment on the Last Day


I've asked this before but you haven't answered. Where are you getting the biblical text for this? Immediately? I'm showing you 7:9 where the rapture takes place and then what happens after (chap 8 and onward) in both Revelation and Matthew 24.

Now you've said:
There is nothing there to reference a Great Tribulation before, mid or afterwards.


ok, using your logic.......I can say:

there is NOTHING there (1 Thess 4:16-17) to a reference that immediately after the rapture will be the Final Judgment on the Last Day.

I want you to show me where immediately happens. I've shown you in all these Revelation blogs now how it seems to be not so.





on Sep 23, 2007
KFC posts #51:

1. Great Tribulation (AC led)
2. Rapture
3. Multitude seen in heaven
4. God's wrath poured out
5. Final Judgment of all unbelievers


I agree with what you said when you said we will meet him in the air. #5 is coming after the 1,000 years is over so there is a time frame involved.


LULA POSTS:
Immediately after the resurrection of the just and unjust will be the Final Judgment on the Last Day

KFC POSTS:

Where are you getting the biblical text for this? Immediately?


From St.Paul's teaching on 1Thess.4. It occurs at the Second Coming, not several years or 1,000 years before it. St.Paul referenced it to take place when Christ descends from Heaven; the Second Coming. Scripture doesn't envision the Second Coming accomplishing the rapture, followed by a "third coming" inaugurating the eternal order or the Millennium.

We simply don't agree on the timing of when the "rapture" of 1Thess. 4:15-17 occurs. Above, you are suggesting the rapture of 1Thess.4 precedes the Final Judgment by 1,000 years. This scenario has Christ Coming three times.

This is my understanding of it.

The resurrection of the just and unjust, the Final Judgment, and the end of the world occur in close succession with no 1,000 year physical reign of Christ. This is based on the article of faith in the Apostles', Nicene, and Athanasian Creeds, and in the Church Councils of 553 and 1215, which confirmed all men shall rise again with their own bodies, which they now bear, to receive (judgment)according to their works."

This occurs at the General Resurrection of the body just before the Second Coming of Christ on the day of Our Lord. The 'rapture" of 1Thess 4 is when those who are alive in Christ and those in Christ risen from the dead, now glorified body and soul, are "caught or taken up" in the clouds to meet Christ as He descends from Heaven in great glory, power and majesty for the Final Judgment.

Scripture informs us that the 3 principal signs that proceed the General Judgment are the preaching of the Gospel throughout the world, a falling away from the faith (apostasy), and the coming of Antichrist.

After these, the General resurrection of the body, the 'rapture' of 1Thess.4, the Second Coming of Christ, and the Final Judgment all occur in very close succession. We know that after the General Resurrection of the body comes the Final Judgment from the Apostles' Creed, "From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead". Christ returns to "judge the living and the dead" not to reign on earth for a thousand years and then judge the living and the dead.

The Final Judgment--on the same day and in the same place all men shall stand together before the tribunal of their Judge that in the presence and hearing of all mankind of all times each may know his final sentence. The good and just will derive great reward and great pain and punishment for the wicked.



on Sep 23, 2007
From St.Paul's teaching on 1Thess.4. It occurs at the Second Coming, not several years or 1,000 years before it.


the second coming for WHOM? There is a diff. He's coming for his own. First. Then comes wrath on the earth when he comes back with his saints at the VERY END, Rev 19. Rev 19 and 1 Thess 4 don't even sound like the same event. Do they to you?

The 1,000 has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. The 1,000 years has to do when all is done. At the very end.

All the talk about the harvests in the gospels and the 7 feasts of Lev 23 paint a total picture of what's going to happen in the end. He's coming to gather his own, leaving the tares like he said he would. Wheat and tares will grow together until the harvest. Then he comes to harvest the wheat (believers) leaving the tares behind. That's where Rev 8 and onward pick up from there. I think you're going to see this as we continue to go thru these next few chapters.

Above, you are suggesting the rapture of 1Thess.4 precedes the Final Judgment by 1,000 years.


Yes. Absolutely. Read Chap 20 of Revelation. It's right there. But I'm NOT saying that the unsaved are still walking about. Armageddon is BEFORE the 1,000 years. So I would say it this way talking about the timing here.

1. Rapture-meeting Jesus in Air
2. Wrath of God on Earth
3. Second Coming of Christ to Earth
4. 1,000 years
5. Final White Throne Judgement of Unbelievers

so I think you're confusing the second coming with the final white throne judgment. The Mill is in the middle of these two. But we haven't even got to this point yet Lula. We're skipping ahead. That's why you're getting confused.








on Sep 23, 2007
From St.Paul's teaching on 1Thess.4. It occurs at the Second Coming, not several years or 1,000 years before it.


the second coming for WHOM? There is a diff. He's coming for his own. First.


Big picture: The major theme of the New Testament is the appearance of Christ to humanity both His First and Second Comings.

Sub Big picture: The major theme of the Apocalypse is the Second Coming of Christ for the Final aka White Throne Judgment of all mankind.

Each chapter has minor themes that fit into the major theme which is the Second Coming of Christ.

At Christ's Second Coming, He descends from Heaven and those who have just risen from the dead and those who are alive are "raptured" that is they are caught up in the clouds in the air to meet Him and from there they DON'T ASCEND BACK INTO HEAVEN, THEY go victoriously to the valley of Josaphat for the Final Judgment. The General Resurrection of the body, the "rapture" of 1Thess.4 at Christ's Second Coming and the Final Judgment all occur in very close succession of one another.





on Sep 23, 2007
Above, you are suggesting the rapture of 1Thess.4 precedes the Final Judgment by 1,000 years.


Yes. Absolutely. Read Chap 20 of Revelation. It's right there.


It all depends on how one interprets the 1,000 years as literal or as symbolic. This is the point of contention. You obviously interpret it in terms of pre-millennialism.

Based upon the Nicene Creed and the teachings of St. Augustine, the Catholic Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism. The Chruch teaches the Millenium of Apoc. 20 is going on now, it began with the First COming of Christ, His Death and Resurrection, and will continue until His Second Coming to judge the living and the dead at the end of the world. So the Millenium equals the Christian age. ONce Christ returns, time and history as we know it ends.

THe Creeds state that CHrist will come again 'to judge the living and the dead," not reign on earth for a 1,000 years AND THEN return to judge the living and the dead...which is what your timing chart #73 indicates.

Since the Church is not pre-millennial, the question of a pre-trib or mid-trib Rapture doesn't even come up. As indicated by St.Paul, the rapture of the Church occurs at the Second Coming of Christ when Christ descends from Heaven at the end of time.

So I would say it this way talking about the timing here.

1. Rapture-meeting Jesus in Air
2. Wrath of God on Earth
3. Second Coming of Christ to Earth
4. 1,000 years
5. Final White Throne Judgement of Unbelievers


There are 3 major problems with this scenario. First, Scripture envisions your # 1 the rapture as taking place when Christ descends from Heaven, your #3...there is no wrath in between. Second, Scripture doesn't envision the Second Coming accomplishing the rapture followed by a third coming. Third, Scripture also doesn't envision the "third coming" inaugurating the 1,000 millenium.

You are saying that Christ (1) comes to die for our sins, goes back to Heaven, (2) comes again to rapture His followers, goes back to Heaven, and then years later (3) comes again to slay the Antichrist, .....


You are reading and interpretating the Apocalypse chronologically instead of canonically.


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