When The Trump Sounds-Will You Be Ready?
Published on September 10, 2007 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Religion
Continuing on where we left off we now come to Revelation 7:9-17 which says:

9After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”
13Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” 14And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15“Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16“They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17“for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”


We start off with another worship service not unlike we saw in Chapters 4 & 5 and before the next seal, the 7th, is opened. This is the worship service that will precede the great wrath of God about to overtake the whole world.

In this chapter we see two scenes. First we saw, in the last segment, the 144,000 chosen Jews sealed by God to do the work of God for his special purpose.

This next scene seems to represent all the world. First, we see "after those things." So we can see we're moving along to a different scene. We're moving from one group of people to another. We're going from a specific number to a multitude, a number nobody can number.

The word "behold" is a word of amazement. It's as tho John is saying, "I looked and I can't believe my eyes." He has seen creatures, elders and angels. Now before him is a great multitude, more than he can even number.

We always see two positions before the throne; standing and on their knees. We never see anyone sitting. Notice this multitude is standing before the throne.

Do you remember the promise given to Abraham? Here we see the promise fulfilled. We need to go way back to Genesis 22:16-17 and read:

By Myself I have sworn, says the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son— “blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies.

So John sees all these that are clothed in white. Earlier we saw a rainbow. So in effect what is happening here is one big lightshow is happening. The light from the dazzling colorful rainbow all around the throne is being reflected off all these pure white robes. God's own glory reflects back to him.

The Palm branches are a symbol of victory. These branches were used in the Jewish feasts. The last of the seven feasts mentioned in Lev 23 is called the Feast of Booths, (tabernacles) or Gathering. I believe each one of the seven feasts corresponds to an event in Christ's first or second coming. This last one is associated with the very end of time. We read in Lev 23:40:

And you shall take for yourselves on the first day the fruit of beautiful trees, branches of palm trees, the boughs of leafy trees, and willows of the brook; and you shall rejoice before the Lord your God for seven days.

Notice in v10 a loud voice crying out about salvation. They are recognizing that salvation does indeed come from God. Have you noticed that nothing seems quiet in heaven. Everything seems to happen with a shout. We will see an exception tho soon.

In v11 we see all angels (lots) elders and creatures worship God. They are giving God the glory for what he has done for mankind. Notice the seven fold praise to God as they listed seven attributes of God in this remarkable description of Him. This scene should remind us of Luke 15:10 when Christ said:

“Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Imagine all heaven rejoicing when you finally came to God leaving the world behind. How awesome.

So now we come to v13 with two questions being asked of John. This is so reminiscent of how Christ operated when He walked the earth. He liked to ask questions to get them to thinking. It was also a typical Jewish format and one we see quite often in the OT. For example you can see this question and answer format in Ezek 37 and Zech 4:1-6.

So he asks John "who are these people"? We know they're saved. They have new garments exchanging the old filthy ones for fresh clean pure ones. These robes speak of purity and righteousness. They have been washed in the blood of the lamb. 1 John 1:7 says:

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

The next question asks "where did they come from?"

The answer is they came out of the Great Tribulation. This is the only place and time where the tribulation is called the "Great Tribulation." This is the second half of Daniel's week. This is occurring right after the 6th seal and before the 7th. These are those who have entered heaven. I believe these could quite possibly be those that have been raptured. This would be another way of saying the rapture occurs "pre-wrath." It's not as popular as a "pre-trib rapture" but it may make much more sense when you take Matthew 24 and lay it side by side with what we've been reading thus far in Revelation.

Some say these are those that are saved thru all the ages. Some say these are those saved during the seven year tribulation. If you believe in the pre-trib rapture then you would place the rapture before Revelation 4:1. Others say it's right here. These people are those that have come out of the great tribulation as it is so stated right here in this section.

We can see quite clearly there is an interlude between the 6th & 7th seal. It seems as tho this is the time when God quite possibly is yanking his people out of the world.

This time is also the changing of the guard. It's back to the Jews again. That's why this all starts with the 144,000 Jews being sealed and explains why these questions are now being asked of John. When we look at v9 we see they come from all nations. Usually this speaks of Gentiles, not Jews. So now what we are observing here is the changing of the baton back to the Jews to preach the gospel to their fellow Jews. God is now going to turn back to israel. That's why he's gathered them and set them in their own land today.

The bible says we will have tribulation. He may allow the church to go thru the tribulation but will never allow the church to suffer thru his wrath meant only for unbelievers. The tribulation coming from evil men in this world is much different than wrath poured out from heaven above.

Going back to 6:17 we see that introduces us to chapter 7. When does this all take place? After the six seals have been opened. There will be no Christians on earth when the 7th seal is opened. This is when God's fury and wrath will be poured out and who will be able to stand? Only those 144,000 sealed and protected by God.

Going back to Matthew 24 we see Jesus is sitting with his disciples. These are his followers and whom he is addressing. They are looking for a sign (v3). A sign is something you see. In v13 he says he who endures to the end will be saved? End of what? The tribulation. This makes sense. Those who make it thru the tribulation will be pulled out and saved before the wrath of God. Notice in v22 it says:

"And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened"

What days shortened? It can't be the full seven years or Daniel's 70th week would be void. These shortened days would be the period of the tribulation. It will be cut short for the elect's sake when He will take them out.

Going onto 24:25 Jesus uses the pronoun "you" meaning his disciples. He goes on to say in v31:

"And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

He's telling them he will take them out via the Rapture before it gets really bad. Yes they will go thru tribulation. Yes it's going to be bad. But we are never to worry about what man can do to us. It's what God is able to do to man that should have us trembling. Notice the trumpet is mentioned again as it is in 1 Thess 4:16. The trumpet is very well known in Jewish times to gather God's people together. That's a picture of what we see Jesus is explaining to his disciples here.

Today the church today is mostly teaching a pre-trib rapture theory thanks in part to Tim LaHaye and others. What will happen if the tribulation starts to happen and we're still here? They may start to think they are not believers or that God's promises are not true. Don't be surprised if we do start to go thru some pretty unsettling tribulation to come. We must endure and wait it out and know he will cut short the days when he deems it to be the right time. All in his timing.

After coming out of much turmoil and tears God will comfort them promising them no more hunger and no more thirst. He will shepherd them. A shepherd in the Gk is another word for Pastor. What a day that will be when we finally have Jesus as our Pastor forever.

For thus says the Lord God: “Indeed I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. 12“As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day. 13“And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land; I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, in the valleys and in all the inhabited places of the country. 14“I will feed them in good pasture, and their fold shall be on the high mountains of Israel. There they shall lie down in a good fold and feed in rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15“I will feed My flock, and I will make them lie down,” says the Lord God. 16“I will seek what was lost and bring back what was driven away, bind up the broken and strengthen what was sick; but I will destroy the fat and the strong, and feed them in judgment.” Ezek 34:11-16




Comments (Page 1)
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on Sep 11, 2007

Going back to Matthew 24 we see Jesus is sitting with his disciples. These are his followers and whom he is addressing. They are looking for a sign (v3). A sign is something you see. In v13 he says he who endures to the end will be saved? End of what? The tribulation. This makes sense.


What days shortened? It can't be the full seven years or Daniel's 70th week would be void. These shortened days would be the period of the tribulation. It will be cut short for the elect's sake when He will take them out.


I believe these could quite possibly be those that have been raptured. This would be another way of saying the rapture occurs "pre-wrath." It's not as popular as a "pre-trib rapture" but it may make much more sense when you take Matthew 24 and lay it side by side with what we've been reading thus far in Revelation.


If you believe in the pre-trib rapture then you would place the rapture before Revelation 4:1. Others say it's right here. These people are those that have come out of the great tribulation as it is so stated right here in this section.


This time is also the changing of the guard. It's back to the Jews again. That's why this all starts with the 144,000 Jews being sealed and explains why these questions are now being asked of John. When we look at v9 we see they come from all nations. Usually this speaks of Gentiles, not Jews. So now what we are observing here is the changing of the baton back to the Jews to preach the gospel to their fellow Jews. God is now going to turn back to israel. That's why he's gathered them and set them in their own land today.



The bible says we will have tribulation. He may allow the church to go thru the tribulation but will never allow the church to suffer thru his wrath meant only for unbelievers.


There will be no Christians on earth when the 7th seal is opened. This is when God's fury and wrath will be poured out and who will be able to stand? Only those 144,000 sealed and protected by God.



Going onto 24:25 Jesus uses the pronoun "you" meaning his disciples. He goes on to say in v31:

"And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

He's telling them he will take them out via the Rapture before it gets really bad.


Today the church today is mostly teaching a pre-trib rapture theory thanks in part to Tim LaHaye and others.


KFC,

Well, I must admit, that I expected that you would pull out the Rapture Theory some time...and here it is...in the interlude between the 6th and 7th seals.

I cannot agree with your interpretation. I'll get into specifics as to why not in a little bit.

We can see quite clearly there is an interlude between the 6th & 7th seal.


Yes, there is. The six seals view the judgments of God from the perspective of Christ, and the 7th seal views these same events from the perspective of mankind.

Again, and I can't emphasize this enough, St.John is writing to the Christians of his day who are undergoing severe tribulation and God's wrath (judgements). What he writes is intended for comfort, encouragement and solace of the readers in his day and beyond for all those in the ages to come. We read the Apocalypse to better understand the future.


When reading chapters 6-9, we see St.John's use of colorful, vivid, apocalyptic literary drama unfolding to assure us that God is aware of our suffering, pain, and feelings of injustice, etc. that comes from evil doings here on earth. Through the Apocalypse and other Scriptural books, we have His solemn promise that He will right all wrongs when He comes again to usher in His final victory at the end of the world.


on Sep 11, 2007
Apocalypse 7:9-17 says:

9 After this I saw a multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and in sight of the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palm branches in their hands:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb!”
11 And all the angels stood around the throne, and the elders (ancients) and the four living creatures; and thye fell down upon their faces before the throne and adored God,
12 Saying: “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, and thanksgiving honor and power and strength to our God for ever and ever. Amen."
13 And one of the elders answered, and said to me: “These that are arrayed in white robes, Who are they and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him: “My Lord, you know.” And he said to me: “These are they who are come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
15 “Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple: And He, who sits on the throne shall dwell over them.
16 “They shall no more hunger nor thirst, neither shall the sun fall on them, nor any heat.
17 “for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne shall rule them and shall lead them to the fountains of the waters of life, and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.”



So here we have the second half of chapter 7 which is the interlude between the 6th and 7th seals. It depicts a multitude of God's loyal followers, now saints in Heavens, as those who have gone through great tribulation and come through it, persevered by relying on God's power and protection. They are our example. It shows us that, like them who have died in the faith before us, we too, can stand firm with hope and confidence and persevere to the end---of our natural lives or to the end of the world, whichever comes first.

Rapture teachers claim that Christians must be snatched from the world becasue God has promised them an escape from 'great tribulation' of the last days. But actually Scripture knows nothing of Christians being snatched away, or "raptured" in this sense.

Apoc. 7:9-12 is the inspiring word of God that strengthens, encourages and consoles, as well as challenge, us to think about our own life and death. Jesus prophecied that the Chruch will suffer tribulation, and He promised the one who in the time of trial, "who perseveres to the end will be saved."
on Sep 11, 2007
In this chapter we see two scenes. First we saw, in the last segment, the 144,000 chosen ......
This next scene seems to represent all the world. First, we see "after those things." So we can see we're moving along to a different scene. We're moving from one group of people to another.


KFC,

I disagree that we are moving from one group of people to another. It’s the same people one scene in the interlude describes them on earth and the second scene describes these same people victorious in Heaven.

One interpretation has the first part of St. John’s interlude, Apoc. 7: 1-8 , the 144,000 described as the complete number ( in this instance a huge multitude) the people of the New Covenant, the New Israel on earth. V. 9-17 is the second part of the interlude in which St. John is shown the same multitude “clothed in white robes” at the throne of God. After they had battled victoriously, with God’s help and protection (seal), through all the ordeals and tribulations of the earth, arrived at their final goal...eternal life in Heaven.

The second part compliments and finishes the symbolism of 144,000 insofar as the promised deliverance in the first is completed and realized in its fullest and final sense.

It certainly makes sense to the reader of both St.John’s time as well as beyond in any age. The intention of the final outcome awakens the conviction to persevere in the faith if need be even to the extent of giving one’s life.

In this chapter we see two scenes. We're moving from one group of people to another. We're going from a specific number to a multitude, a number nobody can number.


the specific number in the first scene is the same number in the second, only we now learn a little more about that specific number--- it’s a great multitude which no one can number.
on Sep 12, 2007
Apocalypse 7:9-12 says:

9 After this I saw a multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and in sight of the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palm branches in their hands:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb!”
11 And all the angels stood around the throne, and the elders (ancients) and the four living creatures; and thye fell down upon their faces before the throne and adored God,
12 Saying: “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, and thanksgiving honor and power and strength to our God for ever and ever. Amen."


KFC POSTS:
So he asks John "who are these people"? We know they're saved. They have new garments exchanging the old filthy ones for fresh clean pure ones. These robes speak of purity and righteousness. They have been washed in the blood of the lamb.


So John sees all these that are clothed in white. Earlier we saw a rainbow. So in effect what is happening here is one big lightshow is happening. The light from the dazzling colorful rainbow all around the throne is being reflected off all these pure white robes. God's own glory reflects back to him.


Some say these are those that are saved thru all the ages.


Pope John Paul II has commented on v. 9-17 and seems to be one of those who thinks the “great multitude” includes all the saved.

He writes in his homily in 1981, the people dressed in white robes are the redeemed. ...the Blood of the Lamb who has been offered in sacrifice for all, has exercised its most effective and universal redemptive power from every corner of the world extending grace and salvation to the great multitude.

After going through trials and being purified in the Blood of Christ, the redeemed are now safe in the Kingdom of God whom they praise and bless for ever and ever. This great multitude includes all the saved and not just the martyrs, for it says that they washed their robes in the Blood of the Lamb, not in their own blood.
on Sep 12, 2007
14 And I said to him: “My Lord, you know.” And he said to me: “These are they who are come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
15 “Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple: And He, who sits on the throne shall dwell over them.
16 “They shall no more hunger nor thirst, neither shall the sun fall on them, nor any heat.
17 “for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne shall rule them and shall lead them to the fountains of the waters of life, and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.”


In v. 14-17, we see two different situations. V. 14 is before the resurrection of the body.
and then in v. 15-17, it’s after it, when body and soul have been reunited.

We know this becasue in this second situation the nature of risen bodies is highlighted. They cannot suffer pain or inconvenience, of any kind. They are out of harm’s reach, they have the gift of impassiblity.

Again, to St. John’s readers who were going through severe persecution and to us today knowing that we will have future tribulation, this is a very consoling scene encourageing believers to imitate those Christians who were like us and now find themselves in Heaven becasue they have come through victorious.

on Sep 12, 2007
oh my gosh Lula. I haven't read a word you said.....yet. I just wanted to say WOWZA. I know I'm going to be in for it aren't I?

on Sep 12, 2007
St.John is writing to the Christians of his day who are undergoing severe tribulation and God's wrath (judgements).


ok let's start here. Show me anywhere in scripture where it says that believers will go thru God's wrath. I've shown you many specific scriptures that say they won't including 3:10.

Rapture teachers claim that Christians must be snatched from the world becasue God has promised them an escape from 'great tribulation' of the last days


No, NO, NO. Lula. I've said repeatedly they WON"T escape tribulation but ONLY God's wrath. Two diff things. I keep saying this. Why can't you hear this? So no....rapture teachers like me DON"T teach this. You're reading this aren't you? From somewhere? Now, pre-tribulation rapture believers would believe they are escaping the trib and the wrath of God. But that's ONLY pre-trib rapture believers.

Jesus prophecied that the Chruch will suffer tribulation, and He promised the one who in the time of trial, "who perseveres to the end will be saved."


yes, I agree with you here. But the question is.....the end of what? Tribulation? God's wrath? If you look here you see all these people standing before the throne.....BEFORE God's wrath is poured out on the earth (read 3:10 again). Who are they?

I disagree that we are moving from one group of people to another.


I understand that. You have to to come up with what you're coming up with. But it's very clearly two diff people groups. One has a number; one is too numerous to number. Not the same. But you're being told they are....right? But the plain reading shows they are not one and the same. It's clear. Just read the text. There's a definite difference.



the specific number in the first scene is the same number in the second, only we now learn a little more about that specific number--- it’s a great multitude which no one can number.


are you serious? Are you saying this with a straight face? What you're saying is the 144,000 is really not specific but later when the "great multitude which no man can number" is specific and is the same as saying 144,000? This sounds backwards to me Lula. Also then think about this...... how come it says 12,000 OUT OF each tribe? Isn't that specific? So when God said he created the earth in 7 days he didn't really mean it? When Christ was in the tomb for three days, he really didn't mean it? When it rained for 40 days and nights with Noah in the ARK it wasn't really that amount of time? At one point do you take one number literally and another symbolically?





on Sep 12, 2007
Can't... read... eyes... burning... gah...
on Sep 12, 2007
awwwwwh Jay I was all excited to see ANOTHER name here but Lula.

You're copping out on me.

I still can't believe you're only 23!!! I thought you were much older. You seem a bit wiser than some around here much older than you!!

on Sep 12, 2007
That's only because I agree with most of what you say, and I am also adept at holding my tongue. Man, if I let loose like I really wanted to instead of holding back for Christ's sake... well, I'd probably be a lot more controversial, and less wise. When I get controversial, I tend to get things very wrong (as you probably noticed).

I also make a point to try to see what people are REALLY trying to say, though I enjoy making jokes about what they really didn't mean. I try to understand what people are talking about before making comments, by asking questions and rephrasing their main point into easy to understand language. I'm sure it drives people crazy, but it's also really hard to argue with someone's wording when their point is nicely summarized in the first comment and it's perfectly rational...

Now, maybe I'll actually take a run at this thread.. but it's REALLY long, guys... and about the Rapture... which we know what you believe, and we know what Lula believes, so will I really learn anything from it all? Well, we'll see. Or not!
on Sep 13, 2007
I definitely take exception to Lula saying that 144,000 is also a great multitude which no-one can number. If 144,000 was not numberable, it would not be numbered. It was. End of story.

I think that the numbers represent something for sure. How many apostles were there? 12. That number means something. But there were only 12. There weren't 100 and they just put in the Bible "12" for the sake of the number having special meaning. The meaning doesn't come from just a number written - it comes from the number of whatever it is. So the 144,000 is either a meaningless number representing a multitude, or it's a meaningful number and will be followed exactly when it happens. The number of hairs on your head may be significant, too, but you can't say "I have 144,000 hairs on my head" unless there are that many, and you've counted. You also then couldn't refer to those 144,000 hairs as a multitude of hairs which no-one can number, because you just numbered them.
on Sep 13, 2007
Actually Jay. I was a dye in the wool pre-trib person for years. I'm still not totally out of those woods yet, but this pre-wrath theory here makes a good lot of sense to me now espeically when you take Matthew 24 and hold it side by side as you read this. So I'm still learning and when I look around at what's been happening I'm starting to think we could very well be in the very beginning stages of the tribulation.

One can't really be dogmatic until after it happens. But it's all in there. We just need to dig around for it.

I tried to make them as short as I can, but there's so much in each section to cover.

I'd probably be a lot more controversial, and less wise. When I get controversial, I tend to get things very wrong (as you probably noticed).


hahahah by the looks of it around here, I'm not so wise. I'm too controversial. But hey, I look at the prophets like John and realize he was so controversial he lost his head. So I guess I'm not that bad yet. Last I checked it was still attached.



on Sep 13, 2007
They think your head's so big it wouldn't fit in the gallows...

Regardless, I don't know what to think about the Rapture. I thought 'come out of the Tribulation' refered to the people who were saved but died during the Trib, which does not necessarily mean a rapture before or during this passage.
on Sep 13, 2007
I know I'm going to be in for it aren't I?


Yup, and by your own doing. That's because the Rapture theory is extra-Biblical and you must dubiously interpret Scripture to fit whatever your particular persuasion of the theory is..

But it's all in there. We just need to dig around for it.


Oh, KFC, it promises to be a fun discussion.   



on Sep 13, 2007
I still can't believe you're only 23!!! I thought you were much older.


Me too. I think perhaps becasue of the maturity of his thinking, I imagined him somewhere in the early 30's. I'm impressed that he is 23...just keep up the good work, Jythier.

I definitely take exception to Lula saying that 144,000 is also a great multitude which no-one can number.


OKay, Jythier, I'll try to explain further. From what I can tell, St.John writes the Apocalypse much along the same lines as Daniel. And what we see over and over again in apocalypitc language is that in one vision, he'll describe an event or a scene and then in a later vision, he'll decribe the same scene but with much more detail. Remember, just as Daniel, St.John's visions were BIG, REALLY BIG ON SYMBOLISM.

That's how I view the two scenes of the interlude in Chapter 7.

In 7:1-8, the 144,000 is described as the complete number of warriors (symbolic of a huge multitude vs. KFC's literal interpretation)that God has chosen. This enumeration of 144,000 seems small compared to the world's numbers but who with God's might and protection will prevail.

In 7:9-17, the second part of the interlude, St. John is shown what I think is the same multitude “clothed in white robes” at the throne of God. After they had battled victoriously, with God’s help and protection (seal), through all the ordeals and tribulations of the earth, arrived at their final goal...eternal life in Heaven.

The second part of the interlude compliments and finishes the first part. The symbolism of 144,000, meaning a complete number, is completed and realized in its fullest and final sense with the promised deliverance of eternal life in Heaven.
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