I found the article distasteful--especially coming from someone who has repeatedly put down the Catholic church.

I'll ask again. Nobody seems to give me clear answers on this but I'll ask. When have I put down the CC?

I'll admit, as an ex Catholic, I've got issues but I've never put them down on forums such as this.

I can respect KFC's beliefs, it would be nice if she respected everyone else's,

BELIEF IN WHAT? SANTA CLAUS? Have I trodden on a deity here?

Like LW said.........NEWS FLASH.......he's not REAL.

I really think you need to get your thoughts and mind in order KFC. To say: "Satan already has the Jews blinded to Christ" infers that Jews are swayed from JUdaism by Satan.

well let me rephrase that. It's really God who has done this. He's allowed this to happen. Do you think I'm just making this up? Do you remember Jesus talking about the blind leading the blind? Do you remember Jesus weeping over Jerusalem because they would not accept him? Do you not know the scripture in John that said, "He came to his own and his own received him not? The reason? Blindness. They could not see. Where did this come from? Romans 11 is just but one passage among many:

1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"? 4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8 as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day." 9 And David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them. 10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever." 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

'll ask again. Nobody seems to give me clear answers on this but I'll ask. When have I put down the CC?

I'm not going to search for them all, but you implied that the Catholic Church does not teach the Word of God on Dr. Guy's blog:

have had other Catholics thank me for bringing them to the scriptures. They say I've given them a gift that can't be taken away. Now the question I never did ask them is why me? Why didn't they get this from the CC? My question to you is.... Have you ever checked out God's word to see if the CC is telling you the truth?

That same quote, by the way, implies that that Catholics are lost and need you to "save" them.

And after harping on and on about how the Catholic Church is wrong in her teachings (saints being one example) you say:

he Whore of Babylon is found in Revelation 17. Gog of Magog is found in Ezek. Two differnt things. And since this is not a thread on biblical prophecy we won't go there now......but I'll give you a hint on the whore...ok just to get you a thinking. A whore is someone unfaithful, a direct opposite of the bride of Christ in scripture. The church (faithful to Christ) is called the Bride of Christ. The False Religions are called the harlots because they are unfaithful to God. So the WHORE is the mother of all the Harlots. The Whore gives birth to the Harlots. For the exact scripture go to Rev 17. Maybe later we'll discuss this on another thread.

Now, the Catholic Church is wrong and doesn't lead you to Christ (according to you), but we aren't to think that you are saying that the CC is the Whore of Babylon?

Or what about the time that you decided to discuss the drinking problems of priests?

Most of the wine in those days was mixed with water. The children even drank this. There was no refrigeration as LW mentioned. It was pure wine mixed with water. Even in the CC they do this. My husband as an altar boy used to know which priests had the drinking problem by the amount of water put in the wine.

Do you honestly not realize how you come across? I'm sure I could come up with more, but I haven't the time.

BELIEF IN WHAT? SANTA CLAUSE? Have I trodden on a deity here? Like LW said.........NEWS FLASH.......he's not REAL.

Thanks for clearing that up BY YELLING. I was confused, I thought he was real. KFC, do you really not see how condescending you are being? St. Nick is a Catholic Saint (and is depicted in Catholic iconography as a Bishop) who was known for secret gift giving (as Cacto has already pointed out). SO, no, he's not a diety, but he is a saint. You compare a Catholic Saint to Satan and you wonder why people are offended?

Weirdness.

Tex, I love you babe...and I'm feeling the weirdness now too. God bless you and your whole family, especially your newborn, but I can't let this go...

Not only have I been insulted...I can let that go...but my faith, my family, and my traditions too. This by someone who loves to come across as pious...holier than thou...all in the name of God. Someone who implies that they are a better Christian than me...that I don't get it...that I am being misled by Satan, in the disguise of Santa...

If I object, this does not apply to me...only to the "Christian Community"...something that I obviously don't belong to (as implied by the poster)...something that I cannot accept...

Weirdness indeed!

Just a man who is hurting bad right now. And all alone.

I know that our friend is hurting, and I feel his pain.

But my belief system is under attack by someone who claims to be on my side - a fellow Christian. She is being a two-face in that she attacks in one breath, and claims that she does not in the next.

Do you really expect me to ignore this?

Well I guess I accomplished what I set out to do. Are you thinking I didn't realize how you would react? You've all just gave me great insights into your hearts. I now can say I know you all quite a bit better because of this little article. Some of it ain't pretty at all. You really should listen to yourselves. I see alot of hate and anger thrown around here. It's ugly. Don't blame me for this.

Don't blame me, either...I'm just here for the PIE!!!

Shades

I noticed you are very selective in your pulling my quotes out. You seemed to leave out a few. One of course being that not only do I have very dear friends that are Catholic, including my best friend growing up but also almost all my relatives albeit now most are secular Catholics if that's even a term.

What I wrote on Dr Guy's blog did not offend him. I think I asked a fair question. I'm not a religionist. I think it's good to encourage others to think for themselves. What's wrong with that? I spent many years having the CC and other groups think for me. Bad mistake. When I stand before my maker my church or any other church will not be there with me. I will be alone with my God answering to him.

I didn't just decide to talk about the drinking problem of the priests. The priest comment was, in context of the article presented, an experience my husband had. This was not attacking the Church. I was giving an experience we had. Many things have been written here on JU on the ills of the CC. If you're going after these few comments I made (most of them things we expereienced) then to be fair you may want to go after the ones Dr. Guy was talking about that were in his face. I was not one of them.

You are assuming, because of someone else's accusation, that I believe the whore of Babylon is the CC. Again I ask, where did I say that? This is nothing but assumption on your part.

Saints? I defended the scriptures and showed quite clearly you do not have to be dead to be a saint. By doing so I attacked the CC? I can't help it. Some people get in trouble for telling lies. I get in trouble for telling or showing the truth. I'll work on that. But Keep in mind, friends always tell the truth to you.

I'm sorry if I offended you Shades, I certainly didn't mean to, but do you for one minute think I haven't been offended many many times here on JU for mostly just stating my opinion or POV as a Christian?

I did not compare a Saint to Satan. Did you NOT read all my comments? Again I'll say, this was something to think about. This is something Satan does. He distracts. He takes us away from Christ by putting things in our line of vision whether that be SC or the Easter Bunny. This was not at all about the physical...... but all about Spiritual Warfare. And we do have a battle going on whether you believe it or not.

I actually am surprised you wrote back. I'm impressed that you at least backed up your statements and quickly too I might add. Thanks for that.

Don't blame me, either...I'm just here for the PIE!!!

hahah, good stuff. Maybe I should have written about the history of pumpkin pie. Moral of the story here? Don't mess with SANTA.

have some whipped cream with that pie Gid.

But my belief system is under attack by someone who claims to be on my side - a fellow Christian

Belief system? It's Santa Claus!!! Not God people. Check this out:


Who is Santa Claus?
Children are taught that he is the person who performs miracles and wonders every Christmas Eve. He is able to create and deliver virtually any present any child can imagine. He can fly through the sky and deliver these gifts to billions of children all over the world - all during one night. And not just any old presents but exactly the ones desired by each individual child.

But Santa Claus is not just omnipresent, he is also all-seeing and all-knowing. He has the divine power of omniscience, and this not only on Christmas Eve but all through the year.

He sees you when you're sleepin'
He knows when you're awake,
He knows if you're been bad or good,
So be good for goodness sake ...
People imagine similar powers for their god:
You see me, whether I am
working or resting;

In addition, children are taught that Santa Claus is all-good and all-just; He rewards the good children and leaves the bad ones empty handed. Perfect goodness and justice are also attributes of deity. In other words, Santa is really a god who performs miracles by his own powers. To be sure, he is a kind of childish god. He is concerned only about children, and he brings childish presents. But that's the only sort of god who could have any meaning for the young child. Adults think of their deity as the creator of all things visible and invisible, but such an entity is beyond a child's comprehension. What children can relate to is a creator of toys and goodies. While grownups characterize their god as all-holy, all merciful, all-just, all-powerful, omnipresent and infinitely perfect, this conception is too vast, nebulous and remote to have any meaning for a little child. Children from 2 to 8 - the Santa Claus years - cannot grasp such a transcendent abstraction; they can only relate to a material being. Santa is such a god-in-the-flesh - a deity tailor-made for children.

Santa Claus can be traced back for four centuries in the U.S.:

1600's: The Puritans made it illegal to mention St. Nicolas' name. People were not allowed to exchange gifts, light a candle, or sing Christmas carols.
17th century: Dutch immigrants brought with them the legend of Sinter Klaas.
1773: Santa first appeared in the media as St. A Claus.
1804: The New York Historical Society was founded with St. Nicolas as its patron saint. Its members engaged in the Dutch practice of gift-giving at Christmas.
1809: Washington Irving, writing under the pseudonym Diedrich Knickerbocker, included Saint Nicolas in his book "A History of New York." Nicolas is described as riding into town on a horse.
1812: Irving, revised his book to include Nicolas riding over the trees in a wagon.
1821: William Gilley printed a poem about "Santeclaus" who was dressed in fur and drove a sleigh drawn by a single reindeer.
1822: Dentist Clement Clarke Moore is believed by many to have written a poem "An Account of a Visit from Saint Nicolas," which became better known as "The Night before Christmas." Santa is portrayed as an elf with a miniature sleigh equipped with eight reindeer which are named in the poem as Blitzen, Comet, Cupid, Dancer, Dasher, Donner, Prancer, and Vixen. Others attribute the poem to a contemporary, Henry Livingston, Jr.
1841: J.W. Parkinson, a Philadelphia merchant, hired a man to dress up in a "Criscringle" outfit and climb the chimney of his store.
1863: Illustrator Thomas Nast created images of Santa for the Christmas editions of Harper's Magazine. These continued through the 1890's.
1860s: President Abraham Lincoln asked Nast to create a drawing of Santa with some Union soldiers. This image of Santa supporting the enemy had a demoralizing influence on the Confederate army -- an early example of psychological warfare.
1897: Francis P Church, Editor of the New York Sun, wrote an editorial in response to a letter from an eight year-old girl, Virginia O'Hanlon. She had written the paper asking whether there really was a Santa Claus. It has become known as the "Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus" letter.
1920's: The image of Santa had been standardized to portray a bearded, over-weight, jolly man dressed in a red suit with white trim.
1931: Haddon Sundblom, illustrator for The Coca-Cola ™ company drew a series of Santa images in their Christmas advertisements until 1964. The company holds the trademark for the Coca-Cola Santa design.
1949: Johnny Marks wrote the song "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer." Rudolph was relocated to the North Pole where he was initially rejected by the other reindeer who wouldn't let him play in their reindeer games because of his strange looking nose. The song was recorded by Gene Autry and became his all-time best seller. Next to "White Christmas" it is the most popular song of all time.
1993: An urban folk tale began to circulate about a Japanese department store displaying a life-sized Santa Claus being crucified on a cross. It never happened.
1997: Artist Robert Cenedella drew a painting of a crucified Santa Claus. It was displayed in the window of the New York's Art Students League and received intense criticism from some religious groups. His drawing was a protest. He attempted to show how Santa Claus had replaced Jesus Christ as the most important personality at Christmas time.




The Theology of Santa
Santa, as taught to most children, has most of the attributes of God:

He is virtually omnipresent. He can visit hundreds of millions of homes in one night.
He is omniscient. He monitors each child; he is all-seeing and all-knowing; he knows when they are bad and good.
Although not omnipotent, he does have great powers. He can manufacture gifts for hundreds of millions of children, and deliver them in one night -- each to the correct child.
He is all-good and all-just. He judges which children have shown good behavior and rewards them appropriately. Bad children are bypassed or receive a lump of coal.
He is eternal.
He rewards good and punishes bad behavior.

However, there are negative aspects to Santa's behavior that can damage a child's self-esteem:

In practice, children are not rewarded with gifts according to their behavior; they receive presents according to the amount of money that their parents are willing or able to spend on them at Christmas time. A child may receive little or nothing from Santa because his/her parents are poor. Unfortunately, the child has probably adsorbed from the media and their friends only bad children get nothing from Santa. He/she might begin to look upon themselves as a bad person. This may well damage their self esteem.
Most children in Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Jehovah's Witnesses or some other faith traditions do not receive gifts from Santa. But when they go to school, they see that their Christian contemporaries have been given presents. They might feel that they are less worthy than their friends, or that their religion is inferior to Christianity. To protect from this kind of mental development, most of the Non-Christian Parents should think some alternatives.

There are many opinions on what we should teach children about Santa Claus: (Am I not allowed to have one?)

Santa Claus is an important part of childhood: Carleton Kendrick, Ed.M., LCSW believes that "all children have the right to be fascinated and enchanted by the nurturing, age-old myths and fables of their culture. Santa Claus, and yes, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy engage a young child's sense of wonder." He implies in his essay that parents should originally teach their children that Santa exists. He suggests that when the children develop doubts about the reality of Santa, that the parents refrain from admitting the truth. Rather, they should stand by to support their kids when his/her "fantasies and myths grudgingly give way to more mature, confusing realities."

Belief in Santa Claus is dangerous: The Rev. John Eich suggests that teaching a child about Santa can backfire. "When a parent says 'Yes, there really is a Santa Claus and his reindeer can fly,' he is no longer playing a game. The parent is lending his personal authority as a parent to the myth, giving it the ring of truth." When the child later finds out that there is no Santa Claus, then she/he might also doubt other parental teachings.

From Engineering Prospective:

1) No known species of reindeer can fly. BUT there are 300,000 species of living organisms yet to be classified, and while most of these are insects and germs, this does not COMPLETELY rule out flying reindeer which only Santa has ever seen.

2) There are 2 billion children (persons under 18) in the world. BUT since Santa doesn't (appear) to handle the Muslim, Hindu, Jewish and Buddhist children, that reduces the workload to to 15% of the total - 378 million according to Population Reference Bureau. At an average (census) rate of 3.5 children per household, that's 91.8 million homes. One presumes there's at least one good child in each."

Teaching about Santa as a myth: Parents can teach the historical legends associated with St. Nicolas. They are great stories which discuss the importance of generosity and sharing even if they are based on events that never happened. At the same time, parents can teach Santa Clause as a modern secular/cultural myth. Children can still enjoy the story without actually believing that Santa exists. Families can still pretend that gifts arrived from Santa. Since the child has always considered Santa to be an imaginary person, he/she will not be disillusioned at their parents when their friends tell them that Santa does not exist.


A lesson for today
Parents should be aware that fostering a belief in the Santa Claus of today may backfire later. A child looks to parents to furnish everything--food, comfort, courage, and truth. When a parent says, “Yes, there really is a Santa Claus, and his reindeer can really fly,” he is no longer playing a game. That parent is lending his personal authority as a parent to the myth, giving it the ring of truth. What happens later to a parent’s credibility when the child finds out that the story isn’t true? Maybe the other things a parent has said about safety, moral values, right or wrong aren’t true either.

If you once believed in a man who knew what you were doing, who had amazing abilities, and who gave you nice things, and he turned out to be a fake, why should you believe in another man who knows what you are doing, has amazing abilities, gives you nice things--Jesus Christ? If you get burned once, why get burned the second time? Wouldn’t it be better to be honest with our children right from the start, and teach them the difference between truth and make-believe?

Some people love Santa Claus so much that they forget about Jesus. Some churches burn the present day Santa Claus in effigy. Both extremes are too much. It’s better to remember the real Nicholas, who can serve as an example of how to really keep Christmas.

Don’t think “Look what the world is coming to.” Rather think “Look who’s coming into the world!” A little girl was once asked, “What is a saint?” Thinking of the heroes of faith who are pictured in stained glass windows she answered, “A saint is someone who lets the light in.” That’s how we best perhaps can use the myths about Santa Claus. Let’s use them to let the “light in,” Jesus Christ the light of the world. Let’s keep Santa Claus always kneeling at the manger of his Savior and ours. Link: http://www.rumela.com/events/christmas_santa.htm

Well I guess I accomplished what I set out to do.

And what exactly was that?

This article for crying out loud was just to make you THINK. That's it. Give me your insights but please leave your insults behind.

Pretty hypocritical I'd say, if you'd expect us to just sit here silently while you demean our families and our traditions.

KFC:

First, let me say that you are completely avoiding the fact that St. Nick is a Catholic Saint and thus part of the traditions of the Catholic Church. The original article talks about Santa (St. Nick) and Satan being the same. You can not honestly tell me that you can't see how this is offensive to some, can you? Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but you've had quite a few people tell you that it is, and you keep coming back with "don't mess with Santa." That's not it--it's don't disrespect traditions that people hold dear by saying they are in bed with the devil.

Second, my assumptions about the Whore of Babylon were all my own. If you do not think it is the CC (which seemed pretty clear to me the first time you wrote it), please fill us in on who you think it is--that would end the entire saga.

Third--I apologize if my comments were selective--I could go through all your comments, but the general way that they read to me (and maybe this isn't how you intended it, but this is how it came across to me) is that you were once lost, naive, misguided and Catholic, but now you see the light and know better than all us Catholics.

I attended a university with strong ties to the Baptist church--you are not the first (nor I imagine the last) "Christian" who likes to explain how the Catholic church is wrong. During my undergraduate years I was told I was going to hell for being Catholic to many times too count (and, also that Catholics weren't Christians).

I don't remember ever personally being rude or insulting to you -- though I have disagreed with you on occassion. Usually I avoid your threads -- it's not what you say, but how you say it. You believe that you are right and that everyone else is misguided, that you understand God and that the rest of us just haven't seen the light yet. You even went so far on this thread as to judge whether or not we were kind or considerate people (based, as far as I can tell, on the fact that we don't agree with you).

As far as I'm concerned, God gave me two tasks-- to love God and to love my neighbor. As long as I try my hardest to get those two things right--everything else should fall into place. How I (or anyone else) choose to accomplish those tasks is a personal decision.

If you point was simply to reminds us why we celebrate Christmas, that point could have been made in a much different way. Comparing Santa to Satan will alienate far more people than it will convert--as this article clearly shows.

All that said, I hope you and your family have a wonderful Christmas however you choose to celebrate it.

did not compare a Saint to Satan.

Santa Claus and Satan are the same being!

If you (or your son) did not intend to compare Santa and Satan--then please explain this line.

This article for crying out loud was just to make you THINK. That's it. Give me your insights but please leave your insults behind. Pretty hypocritical I'd say, if you'd expect us to just sit here silently while you demean our families and our traditions.

how do you figure? This just doesn't make sense. I said....give me your insights? How does that translate into my asking you to sit here silently? No, I just asked you leave your insults behind. Your opinion is very welcome. I never asked you to be silent.

Shades,

I appreciate your tone and your honesty. Thank you for that.

First, let me say that you are completely avoiding the fact that St. Nick is a Catholic Saint and thus part of the traditions of the Catholic Church.

There are many myths and urban legends surrounding Santa. I've found many diff accounts on him over the years. I am not even remotely tying the CC and SANTA together at all. Some stories have the CC picking him up as a saint well after his fame. I'm not even entirely sure there ever really was a REAL St. Nick. Are you? Please believe me. I'm referring to the mythical Santa, not any historical figure and certainly this is not a veiled attempt on my part to jab at the CC.

This is from Wikpedia

Santa Claus is an example of folklore mythology which adults know is fiction, but which is sometimes presented to children as fact. Other prominent examples are the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny. He now forms an important part of the Christmas tradition throughout the Western world and Japan and other parts of East Asia.

Santa Claus is a variation of a Dutch folk tale based on the historical figure Saint Nicholas, a bishop from Myra in Asia Minor (the greater part of modern-day Turkey


nothing in the body of the original blog here remotely is going after the CC.

If you do not think it is the CC (which seemed pretty clear to me the first time you wrote it), please fill us in on who you think it is--that would end the entire saga.

I've already told Baker who was pushing for me to do so already that it's not that easy. Revelation is a very deep book with deep truths that cannot be so easily defined in such a venue. It wouldn't be fair to any here or myself, nor would it necessarily be wanted. This is not the place. And to be honest, while I have taught the book of Revelation in my studies it's so detailed with explanation I couldn't do it justice here. I have jokingly said I should start with Chapt 1 and just go at it.

But man, if Santa is getting this much of a reaction can you imagine what would happen if I got into such a deep subject as the book of Revelation? I know people like controversy and I know I do stir the pot some. I admit I like people to think about things, and converse it, but I never mean it to be condesending or ugly. If I come across that way, I'm sorry. Where I'm from we think it, we say it. The only mincing we do is in pie. I don't pussyfoot around, and I tell it like it is. Some people like that, and some don't. Usually, I hear from the ones that don't.

While you (from your handle) may be a "grey" person, I tend to be very black and white. That's how I think, that's what I see. As a Christian, I believe that's what God wants.

one more thing regarding the judging thing. Jesus never told us NOT to judge. He wants us to make RIGHT judgments, that is, not in hypocricy or malice. When I said what I said, it was the fruit I was seeing. I can't judge hearts. Only God can. What I can see is fruit. Just take a scroll up and look. Sick? Pathetic? Wierd? Need Professional Help? I'm not judging their "root"....I'm judging their "fruit" and that's a totally fair thing to do. Jesus said "by their fruits you will know them" and "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks."

Otherwise if we don't how are we to know when "to dust off our sandles and walk away?"

Santa isn't getting this much of a reaction, YOU are. You aren't making people "think". People have heard this idiotic stuff for YEARS, KFC. We've for YEARS heard that Santa is wrong, Harry Potter is "witchcraft" and should be removed from school libraries.

Our reaction isn't because that we are touchy, or because we have some kind of subliminal guilt. Our reaction is because, frankly we HATE your perspective and would like to purge it from our culture. That sounds strong, but it's true.

I don't hate you, but I sincerely, from the bottom of my heart hate what you are. I hate the way you've perverted your mind to think so unnaturally. I hate the way you can validate barbarity and hatefulness and call it holy.

So, when you get reactions like this, you interpret it as persecution that was prophesied. Maybe it is. Maybe Jesus knew that people couldn't handle His doctrine and would become latter-day pharisees.

4 days to christmas and a jolly time it twill be!

Baker,

Well maybe some have. Not all have. Just because you're familiar with all this doesn't mean everyone else is. I'm sure you see people all the time, as I have, that keep traditions and believe certain truths but have no idea why or give it much of a thought. Just because......

Our reaction is because, frankly we HATE your perspective

speak for yourself only please. Don't say we; say you. I know how this works. I've heard differently off site more than once that what I say is good whether they believe it or not; agree or not agree with my methods. Sometimes things just need to be said. I'm definitely not tickling your ears. That's actually a good thing whether you know it or not.

I don't hate you, but I sincerely, from the bottom of my heart hate what you are

I don't hate you either. And from the bottom of my heart......honestly Baker, I'm concerned for you. Absolutely. I don't have any such hate here. No matter how mean you are, no matter how much you hate what I say, I don't feel the same. Years ago, I wouldn't have given you the time of day. Years ago, I may have thought......"well he'll find out" and "hell is truth seen too late." I don't feel like that now. God has put something in my heart that only could have come from Him.

hate the way you've perverted your mind to think so unnaturally.

see this is it in a nutshell. I am unnatural. That insult you gave me I take as a compliment. I think of Paul who said this:

"But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Cor 2:14

"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit. If so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now itf any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his." Rom 8:9

I don't think from a physical perspective anymore. That's a good thing. There were so many warnings given out...Jude gave this one to believers:

But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. Be merciful to those who doubt; snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear--hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

Maybe Jesus knew that people couldn't handle His doctrine and would become latter-day pharisees.

I couldn't be more non-Phariseeic. I'm not a religionist. They were. They were so concerned for their own elevation and welfare, they distanced themselves from the common day people. They were of the elite. You cannot describe me this way at all. I have two homeless people and two elderly ladies with no family coming to my home for Christmas dinner. I don't see the Pharisees doing that. I am actually very against the Phariseeic preachers/snobs out there. How many times have I spoken on that? If you want to call me a Pharisee because I believe in the literal word of God....than yes, I'm guilty but that wasn't the definition of the Pharisees in scripture.

Also if I were a Pharisee (another insult coming from you) I would never let my kids read Harry Potter, (moot point because they are now grown) but like I said above I wouldn't forbid it but would have discussion on it. The Pharisees wouldn't agree with me here.

JEN

You are the cat's meow!! May you have a very blessed peaceful Christmas.