Scripture tells us clearly that Jesus established a kingdom on earth--the Church with a hierarchy, and the authority to speak for Him

nope, don't believe this, but we've been thru this before so I won't repeat myself...LOL. "My kingdom is no part of this world" takes care of that idea.

1) Mary and Joseph certainly knew the date and the shepherds did too. The shepherds were chosen for the greatest privelige of all of history---of being the first to know the Christ Child. St.Luke 2:10-12. In verses 16-18 we learn they talked about the birth and (2) the Romans kept the records of their censuses and the locals could have easily gained access to that and thus would have known when Christ was born. Both make perfect sense and could very well have happened.

No problem here Lula from me. Of course I believe all this. I'm just saying we don't have access to this anymore. You know as well as I that the date is not given in the scriptures. I think it's not really important. What is important is the birth...not the date of the birth. If you want to know more... read Josephus and "The Antiquities of the Jews" He was a first century eye witness to the burning of Jerusalem. His works are verifiable and have been used for many years as outside the bible documentation as to what happened historically. Josephus was a Jewish Historian. Besides even Jesus backed this up with his quote about nothing will be left even one stone upon another. Little did they know at the time what he was talking about.

And where does this hypothesis come from? (Protestant oral tradition?)

nope....scripture...you know me Lula. Read the second chapter of Acts and the last chapter of Romans.

Kelly asserts that Titus, the Roman general, brought all the imperial records including the censuses back to Rome after the destruction of Jerusalem

ok then where are they? I think your kelly is not credible. As I said before, show me some documentation that backs up what Kelly is asserting. For years I've read all sorts of stuff on this and there are no records that were left behind. Today the Jews really don't know what tribe they're from as a result of this. Some may have an idea by their last names (like Levi) but they can't prove it because the geneology that was very important to them was lost in that fire of 70AD.

Lately I've come up with this metaphor;
Santa is the Christian "God"
and the Bogeyman is Satan.

You wish, hope and pray for the things you desire,
and get these things from Santa or God,
IF
you've been nice and not naughty.

The Bogeyman/Satan waits until you're unawares to punish you...people can't sleep out of their superstitious fears of both of these mytholgical figures.

I've never thought to "demonize" Santa the way that is suggested here,
but Christians never cease to amaze me in their inane suggestions.
All one can do is laugh...
and run like bejeezus away from them to higher grounds of sanity.

LULAPILGRIM POSTS:
Scripture tells us clearly that Jesus established a kingdom on earth--the Church with a hierarchy, and the authority to speak for Him

KFC POSTED on Jan. 15 nope, don't believe this, but we've been thru this before so I won't repeat myself.... "My kingdom is no part of this world" takes care of that idea.



There are 2 kingdoms of God. one in Heaven where His saints (the Chruch Triumphant) are enjoying life everlasting and the other kingdom on earth (the Church Militant) who are fighting the good fight as St. Paul said. When I say that "The Church" is the kingdom of God on earth, I mean the Church is the realization on earth of God's kingdom, the final fulfillment of which is in eternity.

God rules in the midst of His people. The Gospel's tell us that Jesus went all about Galilee preaching the Gospel of the kingdom. St. Matt.4:23. He was teaching a reality that was part of the Messianic hopes of the Jews. In the OT, much was written to the expectation of the Messiah that would save Israel. Many hopes centered on the glorious kingdom the Messiah would establish. when Christ spoke of the kingdom of God or the kingdom of heaven, He was using language familiar to His Jewish hearers. In His teachings, Christ was careful to free the idea of the "kingdom" of a nationalistic hopes of the people. To do this, He often emphasized the heavenly aspect of the kingdom and its interior religious character.

Let's consider what Jesus taught about "the Church" and "the Kingdom". Like the reign of God, the kingdom is spiritual and will be perfected in "the last days". It is not a political kingdom, "My kingship is not of this world." St.John 18:36. Yet, His kingdom is planted in this world. Christ shows it to us as something visible, a community called together by Him of which He is the Good Shepherd. St.John 10:11-16. In one of His parables the kingdom is likened to a mustard seed, which tiny at first, grows until it becomes a large shrub or tree in which the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches." St.Matt.13:32. To explain the kingdom, He told the parable of someone who sows good seed in a field. At night an enemy comes and sows weeds. In the kingdom, both the good and evil are allowed to grow until the harvest. For everyone must have abundant opportunity to be saved. St.Matt. 13:24-30. He also said that the kingdom is like a net let down into the sea. The net gathers all kinds of things, good and bad. At the judgment, the angels will separate the good from the bad. And Christ makes clear that there will be a judgment. St.Matt. 13:47-52.

From these and other parables, we see that the kingdom of God on earth is a visible one. It can be recognized by us and it contains good and bad people. It exists side by side a hostile kingdom which works against it. The growth of the kingdom will be slow but certain. In it, the Word of God must be sewn and cultivated. It will bear fruit in different measures in different hearers, and will even fail to have any effect on some who hear it. St. Matt. 13:3-23. The kingdom must be in contact with the world, must be in the world but not of the world and like a leaven convert and transform it. St.Matt. 13:33.

The Church was made in reality a visible Church when Christ sent the Apostles to preach the kingdom in His name. He made it evident that their work was His. "And they went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it." St. Mark 16:20. The early growth of the visible Church is traced in the Acts of the Apostles and in the Epistles. It's established reality is celebrated in the work of the earliest Fathers, like St.Ignatius of Antioch for one.

You know as well as I that St.Paul portrays the Church and its relation to Christ is that of a Bride that Christ loves deeply. So much so He loved the Church "that He gave Himself up for her." Eph.5:25. Through His gifts, sacraments, He cares for her and makes her holy, "having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word" Eph. 5:26. The Church.....in splendour without spot or wrinkle or any such thing....holy and without blemish." Eph.5:27. The Church is the faithful Bride of Christ. Yes, it's necessary to distinguish between Christ's loving presence and His promises to be with her until the end of time and her sinful members all. By virtue of Christ's never failing love, she is a faithful spouse, ever teaching the truth, and the source of all His saving gifts by the power of the HS.

The Church is not only dear to CHrist, she is made one with Him as His Mystical Body. Christ often identified Himself with His followers, with His Chruch. He sent His discoples to preach in His name. "He who hears you, hears me...he who rejects you rejects me." St.luke 10:16. Of St.Paul who had been persecuting the CHruch before his conversion, CHrist asks, Why do you persecute Me?" I am Jesus whom you are persecuting." Acts. 9:4-5. At the Last Supper, Christ spoke of the intense unity that makes Him one with those united to Him by faith and love to Him. "I am the vine, you are the branches." St.John 15:5. The vine and the branches are one living reality, KFC. St. Paul developed the teaching on the Mystical BOdy and we have discussed some of this on other threads. Eph.4:4-5, 1Cor. 12:27; 1Cor. 12:28; 1Cor 13; The Holy Eucharist in a special way brings about the unity of Christ's body. "The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of CHrist? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of this one bread." 1Cor. 10:16-17. This is precisely through our union with CHrist that we become members of one another in the CHurch. Rom. 12:5. I could go on as there is a whole theology on this.

The signs or qualities of the Chruch of being one, holy, catholic and apostoloc are seen as a sacrament, that is, a sign of Christ and His presence. At the same time this at best is seen as a paradox because the Church is made up of human members with imperfections that sometimes cause grave scandal....and woe to them that cause these scandals. We are sinners and we are the Church...and yet, the Chruch is holy only becasue she is of Christ and with Christ and through Christ until the end of time.