KFC,

First of all, I would like to point out that Santa means saint, and using that as an argument in the opening paragraph only made me want to not take the rest of the article seriously. Sure, it grabs the attention, but the wrong kind. Wouldn't you be incensed if someone wrote an article and they started out by saying that if you rearranged and substituted letters in the word Bible, you get the word Libel?

Second, of all the families that I know, the ones who are religious did a good job of making Christ, not Santa, the focus of Christmas. The families who focused on the secularism surrounding December 25 were not very religious anyway, and were "Christmas and Easter" Christians at best. Granted, that's anecdotal evidence, but my point is that you don't need to villify Santa to decry secularism. People ignore God the rest of the year too, so why make Santa your villian? And it's their fault, not Santa's.

Third, you say that this was meant to be humorous, and I think that it has failed in this intent. To me, it sounds like rhetoric, and rhetoric isn't a great way to reach out ot people. Rhetoric gets the people who want to hear what you're saying. It doesn't get the people who need it. This article brings up a serious topic in a glib manner, and as far as I can see, all it's managed to do is start a flame war.

You asked someone else if they believed in Satan. Does it really matter? Humans are fallible, whether or not there is someone with cloven hooves and horns and a pitchfork tempting us. Blaming the devil, or demons, or anything other than the actual culprit is a cop-out. But God loves us anyway.

Isn't that what we are doing when we tell the children that SANTA is coming? Are we not deceiving them? I do know many that refuse to do this....and I say kudos to them. They are going against mainstream and usually that is a good thing.

I've read up to this quote and stopped reading to reply to what you've written here.

As a Christian I have to disagree with you. This is the problem that misrepresents what Christianity is all about. It isn't what you are making it out to be at all!

I agreed with you when you stated that when your children were young, you let them celebrate Christmas but you still reminded them of what Christmas was really about. I applauded that because I do the same with my children.

Why do we grown ups forget that we were once children who enjoyed the mystery of what being a kid is all about? Of what goodness stands for and what that means? When everything that was done wasn't twisted and made to look like it's the 'devil's' work? What's that all about?

Santa Claus or Kris Kringle or whatever he's called all over the world is known to be a good person, a kind and loving and thoughtful representation of what so many of us are not. The idea of him is exactly because he does what he does for the children of our world, God's angels. The idea of Santa helps children who are sick, who are too poor to have anything, gives hope to so many. Why and how could what he represent be turned in such a way as to compare him to satan?!

If anything Santa Claus represents what God's teaching is, of hope, kindness and love. These are the things to remember. These are the things that pershaps your son now grown has forgotten.

Nothing worse than an insult guised as humour.

I was raised Catholic, and consider myself a Christian. When I look at things in life I ask myself, does this action increase goodness/happiness, or decrease it?. Is it a positive thing, or a negative thing. Does it accomplish the goal that it sets out to? Does it solve a problem, or work towards solving a problem?

Or is it just a bandage - a way to "manage" a problem, so that it continues rather than gets cured?

Santa and gift giving was in integral component to my upbringing, and I resent the "holier than thou" attitude that is expressed here. It smells of hate, not the love that Jesus is supposed to represent.

I see no harm in Santa. To me, he represents goodness - something that we need more of in this world. I see gifts exchanged as acts of love. And I see a general increase in kindness at this time of year, even at the malls. All good things that Jesus would approve of.

But if you or anyone else feel better about yourself or superior to me by pissing on my parade, go right ahead. I will not judge you - you can take it up with God on the day that you get to meet him. Perhaps you can convince him of your noble intentions. Just make sure that you lower your nose enough so that you can see him eye to eye. You wouldn't want God to think that you are a snob or anything. Besides, the air is probably thin enough up there already!

"I see no harm in Santa. To me, he represents goodness - something that we need more of in this world. I see gifts exchanged as acts of love. And I see a general increase in kindness at this time of year, even at the malls. All good things that Jesus would approve of."

But you have to understand that KFC believes that hell is going to be full of charitable people with lives full of good works. She doesn't believe how you live gets you to heaven. KFC would see nothing so sinister as something that taught you how to live a holy life but didn't give it to you in terms of her brand of salvation.

I hate to break this to you, kids, but Santa Claus IS NOT REAL. Neither is Satan.

So long as there is one person who would rather believe in fat red strangers accosting small children with gifts than believe in what's actually real, so long as people are more gullible than questioning and so long as people willingly argue the minutiae of what is, after all, history's most successful viral advertising campaign then yes, Sabrina, there is a Santa Claus.

My but this did turn into a massive pot of very hot curry!

KFC and her family are allowed to think how they want and what they want and they are allowed to voice those thoughts too.

I can see the point her son has made, for the CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY - Santa detracts from the celebration of the birth of Christ and he has said as much. They believe it is time for the christian community to bring a bit of Christian reality back to their christian children..... a fair comment.

For me the idea of Santa is okay - but I have never really enjoyed Santa as a child nor an adult.

I see Santa as someone who was hijacked by the MARKETING community of the world to get honest folk to spend thousands of dollars and pounds each year giving expensive gifts that today mostly only mean something if they cost a lot. Among a lot of families it is a competition to see who gives the biggest and the best lets not forget the most expensive present to their kids - all encouraged by the Marketing Fundis of this world. Financially Santa devastates a lot of struggling families every year.

As a person who is not a Christian - I see Christmas as a pain in the ass holiday that causes a lot of pain and unhappiness to a lot of lonely people out there - the suicide rate each Christmas is just dreadful.

The reason as I see it (for the suicides) is because Christmas is supposed to be a time for friends and family to gather and share a loving time together and lots out there do not have friends and family to gather with to share and exchange gifts. Santa is a part of that problem - being the gift bearer.

I do feel that the response to this thread has been a bit extreme, but it has made interesting reading seeing all the heated views.

For those that are not Christian - Santa is a fun jolly and kindly man that is christmas personified.

"KFC and her family are allowed to think how they want and what they want and they are allowed to voice those thoughts too. "

And when someone asserts that you are a satan worshipper, or abets satan worship, I figure you have the right to offer retort, don't you? Heck, I think anyone that didn't expect vehement retort would be a tad out of touch with reality.

"I hate to break this to you, kids, but Santa Claus IS NOT REAL."

Says you. Prove a negative for me.

We've got people who believe God killed all the firstborn of Egypt. We've got people who believe Bush plotted 9/11. We've got people who don't believe there was a holocaust, who believe in the Loch Ness Monster, who believe that they are the reincarnation of famous people, that they are kidnapped by aliens and anal probed nightly.

In the wide scope of idiotic beliefs, I don't see Santa Claus being all that destructive. If our table is big enough for vividly colorful people who ponder writing by the light of burning children, I think there's room for jolly saint nick.

Baker

And when someone asserts that you are a satan worshipper, or abets satan worship, I figure you have the right to offer retort, don't you? Heck, I think anyone that didn't expect vehement retort would be a tad out of touch with reality.

from the article

Christ. Instead of praising the birth of our Lord, we instead worship the red-stained fattened figure of Santa Claus.

I do believe the article is written from a christian viewpoint and to the christian community not the public at large - the operative word being "our". I did not get the feeling that he was addressing the general public and calling them satan worshippers.... I see it as a pointing out of a pitfall to the christian community.

In the wide scope of idiotic beliefs, I don't see Santa Claus being all that destructive. If our table is big enough for vividly colorful people who ponder writing by the light of burning children, I think there's room for jolly saint nick

I agree - on the outside of the christian community - the world at large, the fat and jolly man is welcomed. For the christians he is a detractor.

"I did not get the feeling that he was addressing the general public and calling them satan worshippers.... I see it as a pointing out of a pitfall to the christian community."

Contrary to KFC's definition (which we've gone over in detail in the past), there are a wide array of other people with conflicting beliefs who consider themselves to be Christian, including me, believe it or not. I wouldn't even mind it so much if this were some heartfelt plea to give up the practice. Instead it is just a matter-of-fact "Oh, Santa is really Satan, but if you wanna go ahead and let your kids be idolaters, no worries".

That's the part about KFC that has always infuriated me. If I believed the things she did I don't know how I could ever sit there and so comfortably live with the world going to hell. I definitely couldn't walk through a store, seeing pictures of "satan" everywhere and just happily go about my business while children were being brainwashed.

I don't believe that, so it isn't an issue for me. How she can believe that so many of us are so far outside what she considers to be God's will and destined for hell and yet be so, well, smug and satisfied about it, I don't know.

Contrary to KFC's definition (which we've gone over in detail in the past), there are a wide array of other people with conflicting beliefs who consider themselves to be Christian, including me, believe it or not.

Does the practice of Christianity not vary from Christian community to community?

For example - when I was involved with Rhema - I was told demons were all around us and to be careful etc. I was told that the childrens toy "My Little Pony" and the tv shows "Smurfs" and even the "Carebears" were all Satanic....especially the rainbows (how perverted was that!) yet when I went to a lesser known church and joined their community I was told that was all rubbish and to put it aside.

So yes there are conflicting beliefs and there will always be arguments about them between the communities - which is a sin in itself - being judgemental of one another. This is perhaps where many Christian communities fall short of practicing Christs word - they become so encased in their beliefs or understandings they have added on - they start to judge others and when they do that - God goes out of the window of the church and he sits outside on the step of the church waiting to be let back in.

You and KFC have some really good discussions that make for some really interesting and enlightening reading, but you both (from the christian view) have to stop judging one another and even denouncing one anothers beliefs.....mind you I should not be saying this - it will take away some of the spark that makes it interesting between the two of you. (picturing the two of you in the same room together having a debate - whew, that paints a picture)

I hate to break this to you, kids, but Santa Claus IS NOT REAL. Neither is Satan. argument solved.

I don't believe in the first, but I believe in the second. I ALSO believe, though, that many Christians give Satan FAR too much credit.

BUT...

While I didn't find this article particularly humorous, I didn't find it offensive, either. First of all, we're pretty dang sure December 25th isn't the birthday of Christ anyway, so Santa can have the day. Second, I want my punkin pie, and if I've got to indulge the fat guy, so be it!

I want my punkin pie,

hmmmm yummy! Over here in the UK they only use pumpkin for halloween displays - you suggest to the folk over here that they eat the pumpkin and they look at you like you just stepped off the moon!

They have no idea what they are missing by not eating pumpkin -- hmmm pumpkin fritters ! yummy!

I do believe the article is written from a christian viewpoint and to the christian community not the public at large - the operative word being "our". I did not get the feeling that he was addressing the general public and calling them satan worshippers.... I see it as a pointing out of a pitfall to the christian community.

EXACTLY.....good job Jen. You saw something many failed to see.

While I didn't find this article particularly humorous, I didn't find it offensive, either

This was my take as well, but then we're on the same page for the most part so I'm not surprised. Like I said earlier HE wanted me to put it under humor because of the wording.

I hate to break this to you, kids, but Santa Claus IS NOT REAL.Neither is Satan.argument solved.

cute LW, but you know that I know that Satan is REAL. If you think he's not, then I would say that's because your light has not shone upon him. He is working undercover under the cloak of darkness.

I remember once when I broke my tooth and took it into the dentist. She showed me the crack in it. I couldn't see it. She said "Let me put it under the light." This usually is not seen unless it's revealed by light."

That's the same with Satan. We all know who the light is.

Does the practice of Christianity not vary from Christian community to community?

while some of the traditions could vary not the essentials. The essentials are what binds us together and makes us Chrisitans.

I was told demons were all around us and to be careful etc

as Christians we're told that "He who is in us is greather than he (Satan) that is in the world."

While I believe there are demons all around us, I also believe there are angels as well, so we don't need to live our lives in fear.

Instead it is just a matter-of-fact "Oh, Santa is really Satan, but if you wanna go ahead and let your kids be idolaters, no worries".

you really need to take a chill pill. I think also you need to put your big boy boxers on. This is really getting ridiculous.

You tend to attack people's beliefs, and then act surprised when people defend them or attack yours in return.

I just read this. When have I attacked anyone's belief? This is written by one that never fails to call me ugly names? Who's attacking whom? Com'on Baker. Or are you finally admitting following Santa is a belief that can take us away from the true meaning of why we are celebrating Christmas in the first place? Have you yet to go out and ask your neighborhood children if they even know who Jesus is? I'm telling ya. I'll bet dollars to donuts just about all the children know Santa, but do they know Jesus?



When have I acted surprised at anyone attacking my belief? Quite the contrary,seems to happen to me quite frequently here on my own site. Believe me, I'm not surprised Baker.

"I just read this. When have I attacked anyone's belief? "

Telling people that they are abetting satan worship isn't attacking their beliefs? That's your problem. NOTHING you say is ever an "attack", but about everything anyone says about your beliefs is.

My opinion is you've lost the true meaning of JESUS'S teachings and are more tied up in doctrine. You don't care that kids might read this and be torn and confused about their beliefs. I've warned mine about you and folks like you, so I'm not worried, though.

I guess it would be fitting if bears charged out and ate kids for being idolaters to Santa, lol.