Because that's the truth.  He's giving us facts.   Notice..the good (those are the believers)  the wicked (unbelievers).  The good will be rewarded.  The only way we are called good is because of Christ's righteousness not our own.  Remember when Christ said "who do you call good?"  Only God is good.  We are only good because of what God has done for us.  Not because we're better than the next joe. 

 In scripture there are five crowns to be given to believers at the time of judgment.  I've already been saved.  I've passed from death to life just as Christ said in 5:24 and many other places.  I know this for a fact and I claim it to be true. Otherwise Christ is a liar.    What I don't know for sure is the rewards I shall get.  I won't know until that day. 

 The born again Christian is predisposed to do good works the non believer is not.   The non-believer's works will not be good or accepted by God because he himself is not accepted no matter how noble his works are.  As Christians, our good deeds are NOT better than a non-believer's good deeds.  In some instances (many times), according to our ways a non-believer may have even better and nobler deeds than a Christian does. 

Don't you see all around you Lula, that non-Christians do very noble and good things?  What about them?  They don't believe in God but they are "good" people.  What about them? 

On the other hand, I've already shown you where a born again believer can get in sans good works by just barely making it as scorched with fire.  He was saved but none of his "good" deeds made it with him. 

We are NOT accepted because of our deeds.  We are accepted because of our supernatural birth.  We are accepted because we are royalty, in a sense.  We are children of the King. 

I have given you scripture after scripture along this whole thread yet all you've thrown at me basically is James 2.  You have yet to prove your case.  You completely ignored my posting #205 as you do everytime I post Eph 2:8-9.  Very telling Lula.  Especially in leiu of the fact you're not usually at a loss for words. 

You are believing RCC dogma, not scripture.  This is why I keep telling you that the RCC contradicts scripture.  You keep saying they don't but each and every time I show you, like in this instance, you ignore it. 

They went to Mass on Saturday night.  We went to church on Sunday.  So that wasn't the case. 

This is a hard one Leauki.  I'm thinking about Joseph.  God knew the suffering he would go thru ahead of time.  As a result of this suffering Israel lived and prospered.  Job was chosen to suffer.  Paul was set apart in his mother's womb and endured a lifetime of suffering so didn't most of the Prophets.  I'm thinking about Jeremiah, called the weeping prophet.  He too, said in his first chapter of his book how he was set apart in the womb.  He could never marry and have a family.  Isaiah was, according to tradition sawn in half. 

 Their primary job wasn't to suffer, but it did come with the territory.  But I do think, along with their hard lives, God gave them an extra dose of his spirit to get them through.  God never gives us more than we can handle. 

I read a quote this week that said something along the effect that suffering isn't the worst thing in the life of a believer, disobedience to God is much worse.  I think of Jeremiah 20:7-9 (my life verse).  I feel that same compulsion. 

Yes, I can agree with that.  God uses the enemy's natural hatred to punish Israel by allowing it to happen.  If Israel didn't turn away from God, things would have been much different.  God told the Jews many times his protection was conditional.  As long as they followed him and His ways they would be blessed.  Many times they put God to the test and God, as any Father would do, punished them by allowing the enemy to penetrate and  destroy Israel, even tho there was always a remnant that nobody could touch. 

Infidel: 

1.  Your point?  God uses nature all the time.  He created it afterall.  Why can't he use natural things?  He uses preachers to preach his word, not supernatural beings doesn't he?  He used a boat made by a man to save mankind.  Didn't he?  Jesus always used natural things to explain the supernatural.  He used wine, door, sheep, bread, water, etc in his explanations of supernatural things. 

2.  First of all everything gets filtered thru the hands of a loving God.  Nothing happens which he doesn't first allow to happen. 

When we go thru trials and tribulations as believers, sometimes it is hard to tell where it's coming from.  When we disobey God and his word, it's usally easy to see maybe we went outside his protection.  Other times, when we do our best, and try to follow him with the highest sincerity still things can go wrong.  We are told to examine our lives.  If we're wrong in our actions, then we need to get right with God and anyone we've offended.  Quite often we see things turn around and we know that was the problem.  

If we have examined ourselves and yet things still are hard for us we know God is allowing this to happen for a reason.  Satan can bring troubles into a believer's life,  (like in the case of Job) to try and destroy our witness.   If we get so involved in our suffering that the work of God in our lives takes a backseat, Satan feels vindicated.  The short book "Screwtape Letters" by C.S. Lewis is an excellent read on this.  He gives us a supernatural look at what happens behind the scenes based on the scriptures.  We are told in scriptures that our suffering develops perserverance and strength.  Each trial we go thru helps us for the more difficult one that is to come ahead.  The people who have gone thru the worst trials are the best ones to help others when they go thru difficult times. 

When or if I ever get cancer, I have many friends I've seen suffer through this disease who could help me.  They will be the first ones (after God) I would turn to.  They will be a great source of help and strength for me to carry on. 

Is that what I did in my answer to Infidel above Lucas? 

If you don't have something positive to say, or something to really add to the conversation, why do you bother?  Just to hear yourself speak? 

KFC,

I have no case to prove...just refute the one you are trying to make by your claims in your original article and by some of your remarks. You are the one claiming that salvation is by faith alone, so the proof text is upon you...but,  it can't be done  because "salvation by faith alone" is unScriptural. St. James 2 alone soundly refutes it and the Bible doesn't contradict itself. 

There are also believers who are wicked....who prefer to remain in unrepentent sin and if they die with that stain upon their soul, then they will be judged accordingly...they will not attain Heaven for the wages of sin is death.

When a "born again" Christian believer dies, his soul is immediately judged...and based upon his good or evil works (his obedience or disobedience to God and His commands), he will be either rewarded with entrance into heaven or denied and condemned and sent to Hell.

Good works are obedience to God and His commands, prayer and almsgiving in love of God and neighbor...so there is no getting into heaven if a born again believer does no good works....

The being scorched with fire is attaining salvation but first by being purified by fire (that's Purgatory for us Catholics).

To each their own; though the point behind my comment turned out true. If you don't want me to say what I feel/think, then you might as well blacklist me. Not trying to beligerant, but if it's on my mind...then I'll likely say it. 

You and I and all the rest of mankind have been redeemed, but not saved (justified)...as that's an ongoing process that ends when we die.We pass from the sentence of death by orignal sin to new spritual life when we are baptized, something that can never be undone.

Justification is not a one time act of God. It begins at our Baptism when we are infused with sanctifying grace, which eliminates original sin and makes us heirs to Heaven. So our justification or salvation begins at a certain time and continues throughout our life with God continually giving His grace (to us Catholics by the 7 Sacraments). A person gains grace as he lives out his Christian life in obedience to God and His commands. As grace increases, justification increases and the person becomes more righteous in the eyes of God. 

If the person commits grevious sin and remains that way unrepentent, then God removes His grace from the person's soul, and justification ceases.This is what St. Paul meant when he said some will be "cut off".

God also gives more grace to one person than another...this is a mystery why and who He chooses to distribute grace in unequal measure. In the final analysis, a person can be baptized and yet, have been so wicked in life that there is no grace present at the end of his life and then he will remain unjustified and be condemned for eternity.

Since you chose to use non-scripture, so will I. I suggest Mark Twain's "Letters from the Earth." http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/twainlfe.htm

The "fact" that Adam and Eve's sin was gaining knowledge, I think that says it all.

He chose them above other people because he loved them. Sounds like favortism to me.

Can you please give the entire verse, or tell me which post it's in?

infidel posts:

Adam and Eve's sin was mainly that of Pride, thinking as the serpant Satan suggested they could be as God themselves (Genesis 3:4-5)..and thus they sinned again disobeying God's command not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil.

Let's get the teaching in full context...

St.Paul's teachings are clear that he believes the individual person is not immune from falling away from the faith. In Romans 6:12-13, he addresses baptized Christians saying, "therefore, brothers, we have an obligation---but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live."

The dying here is the same as that in Romans 6:23, "for the wages of sin is death". Then comes Romans 11:22 when St.Paul wrote to the Gentile Christians..."Consider, therefore, the kindness and sterness of God:sterness to those who fell; but kindness to you, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE IN IN HIS KINDNESS. Otherwise, you also will be cut off."

My emphasis showing the provisionary clause.

But even though they ate the fruit, they didn't really become the same as God. They only gained a knowledge that only God (and probably Satan) had. I think it was God who tempted them because he's the one who put the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden and told them they couldn't have any. Satan only played on their natural curiousity.

Very true. Therefore it doesn't matter if someone is religious or not.

Right, it doesn't.  However more verses say that works are not necessary than the few there are in James 2.

How is it that those few verses refute a dozen others?  Wouldn't the dozen refute the few?  Isn't it more likely that those few were misinterpreted, rather than the dozen?

You act as though James 2 alone proves your point.  It doesn't - there are more verses that say works are NOT necessary.  Chances are that those few in James 2 were just misunderstood.

James 2 doesn't say that works are necessary for salvation.  It says that works justify faith.  It says that faith without works is dead - in other words, faith without works is not faith.  It doesn't say the works save you.  It says that the works are what prove you have faith.  Just look at verse 14:

Note the word "claims."  Can such faith save him?  No, because it isn't faith at all.  Faith is evidenced by works, works prove you have faith, but works are not necessary for salvation.

People can go to church their whole lives and not be saved.  They claim to be saved, but have no works to authenticate that claim.  That doesn't make the works necessary.

Very good IQ.  You spoke well and accurately.  I can't seem to get Lula past James 2. 

fine Lucas, mock on.     If that's all you have to offer...so be it. 

It's not about religion but about relationship.  If you don't have a relationship with God, now, here on earth, how do you plan on spending eternity with him?  God either knows you in the sense that you're family or he doesn't.  The same way you don't let strangers into your home now, the same holds true for God's eternal abode.  If we don't have a relationship with the God of the universe now before we die than we can't really expect to live with him forever after we die either. 

well in a way I guess you're right.  From our POV that's how it does look.  He chose them out of love.  When he choses any of us, it's out of  great love for us.  But his "favoritism" knows no bounds.  It transends color, ethnicity, sex,  condition, etc.  He isn't looking for any special person to bring into his kingdom.  He asks only that we follow him after he taps us on the shoulder. 

says what?  Where did it get them?  Since when is a working  knowledge about sin a good thing? 

Lula said:

Don't believe one word of this Lula.  I notice not one thing is backed up with scripture either.  This is all RCC dogma.  Not biblical.  You're getting bad information, not biblical information.   Your cut off interpretation is not biblical either.   Infidel, take notice. 

No Satan tempted them.  He's called the tempter.   God doesn't temp us into evil. 

That's like saying the car in your garage is only a temptation for your 15 year old.  So when he takes it for an unauthorized spin, it's really your fault for having it just sit there.