My point is: Stop worrying about other people's souls.

That ALL religions are anti-knowledge. I don't care what the knowledge is.

It's not all I have to offer and you know that KFC. In fact, I've offered quite a lot more that has been constructive than I have that has been mocking.

Be well, ~Alderic

Note: Edited for coherency.

[

You can't just go from Romas 6 and make a connection with chapter 11.  In Chapter 11 he's talking specifically about the purpose of Israel's rejection.  It has no bearing on Chap 6 at all.  It's like you're making things up Lula.  Context, context, context. 

Chap 6 has nothing to do with 11.  Chap 6 is all about the principles of sanctification of the believer.  Chap 11 is saying the whole reason the Jews rejected the message of the gospel was for the Gentiles to come into the faith. It's a diff subject.  Had the Jews not rejected Jesus then there would be no RCC.  Paul continues and warns them about pride saying if God didn't spare the natural branches (the Jews) take care you Gentiles that you don't get cut off like they did because of pride. 

That's it.  You're telling Infidel something totally untrue when you put the fear of the RCC's teachings into him.  That's what the RCC has done to you Lula. Read the passage in its full context.  Paul's telling the Gentiles not to be highminded and to be careful that their pride doesn't  do them in.  I don't think this is a coincidence that this is written to the Romans as the pride of the RCC is huge as we see by your writings time and time again.   

If God set aside Israel for their unbelief, He could do the same to Gentiles for their pride. 

who's worrying?  Christ told us not to worry.  I don't "worry" about other people's souls.  It's not my area.  God takes care of souls, not us.  One of my sons is not acting like a believer.  I don't see any godly fruit in him at all.  But I don't worry, I just give him to God.  I trust God knows what he's doing. 

that's balony and a fallacy you picked up somewhere.  Some of the most intelligent people in our history and most of our Scientists of yesteryear were all people of faith.  God never told us to leave our minds at the door.  He gave us a mind, and expects us to use it.  I could say the same about non-Christians.  They're not using their brain when it comes to the things of God, so it's just really a double sided argument that will take us nowhere. 

I would have to agree with you. (See, no mocking. )

As per his statement, I would have to say that my observation (or "belief") is that religion is more about perception of the world, or desire for answers of what doesn't make sense. In a way, it could be likened to a saftey blanket.

Be well, ~Alderic

IQofSpam posts:

Amen....and that the Bible doesn't contradict itself says it all. St.James is God inspired as the rest of Scripture and St.James 2 (God's truth) squarely refutes Luther's 16th century doctrine of "salvation by faith alone".

While you and KFC may quote some isolated passages that seem to hold up Luther's "faith alone" doctrine, if fact, when when they are taken in full context and put together with the rest of the Gospel, they refute Luther's novel idea. "Faith alone" is not what Christ taught and that's why it's unScriptural.

IQOFSPAM POSTS:

Again, and this is paramount...the Bible doesn't contradict itself and it's sure not about a numbers game. Those dozen other verses when taken in full context support St. James 2.

I act as though St. James 2 alone proves my point becasue it does. It devestates Luther's doctrine of justification by faith alone and that's why it's so promblematic for Protestants that want so to hold on to that belief. That's also why Luther wanted to throw out St.James of the NT canon when he threw out the 7 Old Testament books that we discussed on your thread.

 "Justification by faith alone" brazenly contrasts what God requires of us as laid down in Scripture. St.James 2 has 26 verses. He teaches that faith alone is dead without good works (which is obedience to God and His commands).There is no misunderstanding what he teaches. It's a rather simple read.

And verse 14 finishes with the question ..."Shall faith be able to save him?" Which St.James doesn't leave unanswered...verse 20 "But will thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead."

Verse 24 says that works are indeed a necessary component for salvation..."Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?"

KFC POSTS:

If you are a truth seeker, then why would you want to get past St.James 2?

The Bible doesn't contradict itself..yet Luther's doctrine of "justification by faith alone" contradicts what God requires of us as laid down in Scripture...in this case St. James.

From Luther's doctrine of "justification by faith alone", all the Protestant sects that developed since teach that same thing.It shouldn't suprise you that Luther rejected "good works" before you did.

KFC WRITES:

You've been set free from the doubt of not knowing by Luther's doctrine....and you've been deceived. "Faith alone" is none other than security or guarantee of salvation which is the main topic of your article (which yes, I have read probably more times than anyone on this thread!).

One who can be persuaded that merely believing (faith alone) satisfies all the requirements for salvation passes from the category from "lost" to that of guaranteed "saved". Through a series of deceptions you've been led to put your faith in Luther's version of Scripture and in the promises of Luther. The "faith" in which the Protestant speaks, the faith of all those sects, is not a firm belief in Scripture (evidenced by St. James 2) but a firm belief in Protestant invented doctrines ie "Justification by faith alone" or "once saved, always saved".

The Protestant program is to accept Jesus as your personal Savior --and then believe that by this personal faith is by what you are saved....without daily effort on your part, without obedience to His laws and commands, (without good works)! I do not wish to impugn even by implication your sincereity, but you are the victim of a hoax.....following Luther to the "T"!

IQOFSPAM posts:

Yes, people can go to church their whole lives and not attain everlasting life in Heaven. It's called dying with unrepentant sin on your soul.

Same is true of so called "born again" believers....they also can claim to have Jesus as their personal Savior, and take the altar call, etc. but, if they die with grevious unrepentant sin on their soul, then they too won't pass into the Heavenly gates. 

God will give everyone his due according to his good or evil works (sin). Rom. 2:3-11; Ps. 61:12; Prov. 24:12.

"Shall we sin, because we are not under the (Mosaic) Law, but under grace? God forbid." Rom. 6:15.

The doctrine of "Faith alone" is falsified Christianity.

on and on and on Lula.  You keep repeating yourself instead of adding anything new.  So you can stop now.   You've probably said something to this affect at least 50 times thinking that settles it.  What you're doing is going on the attack instead of backing up what you're saying.  Do you think by saying the same thing over and over it's going to convince anyone? 

Not once have you addressed my comments in #205.  Not once.  Again, I point this out to you.  Why? 

KFC WRITES:

LULA POSTS:

KFC POSTS:

It's important to repeat because "justification by faith alone" is preaching a false doctrine and you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge it.  

I did in # 209 and then charge you with contradicting your initial statements in your article. 

First you write:

and then you write:

How can good works be evidence of your faith and yet be chaotic and complicated at the same time? This is contradictory and inconsistent thinking and that's because you are starting by claiming that "Salvation has to be by faith alone" which is a false premise.

You try to prove your assertion that salvation is by faith alone upon one Scriptural verse or another, but it doesn't work because Scripture, coming from God, is consistent and always perfectly consonant with the truth....(as I was telling IQ). That's also why I kept pointing out St. James 2 teaching, but it has fallen on deaf ears I guess.

In 205 you write:

Note the highlighted part of what you wrote. The reason why I didn't debate these passages is becasue I have never claimed that salvation is by works alone, but have always claimed that along with divine faith, good works are a component of one's salvation.

You evidently think these passages satisfy your "justifcation by faith alone"; "once saved, always saved" and "assurance of salvation" doctrines when they clearly don't as has been pointed out many times over. The reason being they are all unScriptural doctrines of Luther or some other Protestant Forefather, not of Christ.

Here, St.Paul was teaching the Gentile Christians about Pharisaical attitudes of boasting of one's works before God thinking that becasue of them, God owes him. Boasting attempts to place God in position of being obligated to give payment back for the work performed. This is self-righteousness that isn't right becasue no one can put God in obligation to save him. This instead is an offront to God and God will be offended and He will not save them.

St. Paul also warns the Gentiles about boasting in reference to God's rejection of the Jews whom he compares to branches that had been cut off. He tells the Gentile believers in romans 11: 18-22, "....do not boast over those branches....they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by your faith. Do not be arrogant but be afraid...otherwise you also will be cut off."

This is similiar to his teaching in Ephesians where St.Paul mentions grace in opposition to "boasting".

Interestingly, St.Augustine taught on these teachings of St.Paul about boasting and the primacy of God's grace. He quoted from the Old Testament which reveals similiar truth...for example, Ecclesiasticus 1:30, "Do not exalt yourself or you may fall and bring dishonor to yourself. The Lord will reveal your secrets and overthrow you before the whole congregation becasue you did not come in the fear of the LOrd, and your heart was full of deceit." 7:5 has it that "Do not assert your righteousness before the Lord."

The Council of Trent taught infallibly that we must reject a presumptuous self-confidence before God.

As far as your quotes from Titus 3:5 and 2Tim. 1:9, they have to do more with predestination and we've already discussedour respective positions on that.

THAT'S YOUR ANSWER???  That's not what the following scriptures are saying. Where is that "component" here then?   For good measure I'll repeat them again here:

It's pretty obvious Lula and I can give you hundreds more btw...but it's pretty obvious that works have NOTHING to do with our salvation, forget about if they're alone or not. 

Can you NOT see that these scriptures (along with the whole of the Old and New Testaments) tell us that salvation is God's work not ours?  Being saved by HIS mercy and grace means we did nothing to deserve it.  Nothing.  That's what mercy and grace are all about.

 Works come AFTER salvation.  We don't work FOR salvation.  We accept it and then get to work.  Simple.  You're making this way too hard,

That's funny, that's exactly what I thought after reading your reply to my last post.

Not to sound rude, but I would appreciate it if you would at least read what I write before commenting on it.  You completely missed the point.

lula posts:

lula posts:

kfc posts:

Who made up that rule? If it were you who had done that you'd claim that "Scripture interprets Scripture" (which has me grinning from ear to ear!). of course, St. Paul's teachings in ch. 6 can be pulled forward to ch. 11. that's what makes their impact so great. And besides, the Scriptural passages which teach that our salvation is not certain until our last breath is demonstrated throughout the NT and shows the reader this consistent and overwhelming message.

Sin is sin whether it's the Jews or the Gentiles or we Christians today.

You don't appreciate the depth of the verse that says "the wages of sin is death" and tying that in with all the rest of Scripture...it even goes right to the end with the Book of the Apocalypse...21:26, "There shall not enter into it (heaven) anything defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie..."

Just like evil works (sin), being "cut off" by God is spiritual death KFC. Put that with St.John 15:6, "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into fire and burned."

I notice that your translation conveniently leaves out the word "such" before the word "faith" in said verse.  It is amazing how much a single word can alter the meaning of a sentence.

I imagine this comes from the Douay Rheims translation?

KFC,

Ay..yi...yi!

Salvation is not here on earth...salvation is after we've died, been judged and entered the heavenly gates....

How can works come after that?

You have the timing and order of things mixed up. 

I agree and never said we do.

"not of works, lest any man should boast", by 'works" here St.Paul understands anything whatever that man performs of himself alone, independently of the grace of God. Here, boasting of one's self is to be excluded at all costs. Anything and Everything that we do should be in the name of the Lord for His glory.

Now, with this and 249, I've responded in depth to Eph. 2:8-9. But now read the next verse 10 and see that it says, "for we are God's work, created in Jesus Christ for good works, which God has prepared beforehand in order that we may walk therein."

So, Yes, good works which are obedience to God and all His commands (all done for His glory) are necessary for attaining eternal salvation. Bad or evil works which are sin which remains on our soul unrepentant will send us to Hell.

The burden to be obedient to God and all His commands is upon us and god gives us the necessary graces to perform them well, if we accept His gift.

Scripture is clear that everything about salvation is a gift, including the mental capacity of divine faith and the power to do good works that please God...Phil. 2: 12-13, Eph. 2: 8-9.

This is how good works are indeed a component of salvation. From Eph. 2:8-10, we can only conclude that both faith and good works are necessary for justification...put that together with St. Jame's 2:24, "Do you see that by works a man is justified: and not by faith alone?"

And we see that without any contradiction whatsoever, both faith and good works must be involved with attaining salvation.

I was referring to your post # 238.... which I responded to in depth in my post 246.