Figuratively, not literally. Since God chose them, does that mean they're his favorites?

God doesn't have favorites.  It says in scripture that he's really impartial.  And... what I gave you was literal, not figuratively. 

Figuratively you could say those chosen are his favorites because in our way of thinking that's how it seems,  but it wouldn't really be theologically correct.  I believe God is more objective than that. 

So he chose one group of people to suffer more than any other group? That's not impartial.

So when Christians are persecuted, they can get help from the Simon Wiesnethal Center?

"Wiesenthal," that is.

I wasn't able to edit my previous post. This really sucks.

Christians don't believe that Christ was the Messiah?

lula posts:

kfc posts: #81

St.John is clear, KFC. But your use of verse 24 doesn't help prove your assertion and unfortunate belief in "faith alone". 

You must ignore all of Jesus' other teachings that include works (obedience to God's commands) as a measure of one's acceptance with God...not the least of these occurs just 4 verses later v. 29, where Jesus says, "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out, --those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned."

This connection between faith of v. 24, and good works v. 29 is not a novel teaching...it's throughout Scripture...for those who have eyes to see. 

IQOFSPAM POSTS #94

IQofspam.

You are making the same mistake as KFC...read the passages that follow...in this case yes, 3:16 refers to belief, but this aspect of salvation is followed by v. 21, But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God." So, here what's the full teaching? Jesus doesn't emphasise those who believe, but "whoever lives by the truth". In fact, Jesus implies that that they have come to the light of faith precisely because they have been living in truth. Jesus is identifying intimately belief with works. Moreover, the works ie "whoever lives by the truth...have been done through God".

Belief is only one condition for obtaining eternal life and although Protestant theologians harp on these few passages....they do not make "sola fide" theology. Period.

kfc posts:

KFC, according to your interpretation of St. John 3,  the devils by believing are saved! Hogwash!

Anyone who believes they are saved by faith alone doesn't understand the central Gospel message. Both Sts. John and James reminds us that Faith in Christ by itself accomplishes nothing if it is not imbued with and completely by grace filled obedience to the Lord's commands (good works), that we love one another by concrete and sincere actions. 

Consider reading St.Luke 6: 46-49 about what Christ said about those who will be saved and those who won't be. 

Christ says those who come to Him ie have faith in Him must do more than merely hear His words if they want to be saved. They must DO them. It's not simply enough to acknowledge Christ as Lord and to proceed through life assuming you are saved simply because you believe in Christ is a big mistake.If that were not so then a man who believes that Jesus is the Son of God who came to earth to gain redeem all mankind, could go so far as to commit murder without fear of his soul's damnation.

Believing in God, in Jesus is a step, but not wholly sufficient in and of itself. WE MUST LIVE OUT OUR FAITH BY DOING THOSE THINGS WHICH HE COMMANDS US TO DO AND BY AVOIDING DOING THOSE THINGS HE COMMANDS US NOT TO DO.

In 2Thess. 1:8, St.Paul warns that when the Judgment comes, God will inflict "vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."

According to Christ, St.Paul and the other NT writers, this "obedience of faith" is centrual to the life of the Christian who hopes to be saved, and it's another way of saying we must live our life in the state of grace, which means obeying CHrist's commands and avoiding sin (ie doing good works), and clinging to CHrist's grace for salvation.

The Hebrew word for freedom used in the Torah is "hiruth". It derives from a root that means "inscribed". The connection is that those who accepted Torah (i.e. know the truth) have freedom.

I believe the pastor (Charles Stanley?) might have been referring to that understanding of freedom when he said it.

IQ #

cacto posts #83

IQ posts # 93

Upon reading the account, it seems to me the thief on the cross next to Jesus made a sincere confession of his guilt and accepted his temporal punishment...he didn't ask to be delivered from it, he was penitent for it.  He asked Jesus to remember him in Paradise....and for this, Jesus immediately remitted all his sins and promised him that he would be with Him in Paradise.

Of course they do.  Why would you ask this? 

I have no idea. 

He didn't choose the Jews to make them suffer.  He chose the Jews so they might be witnesses for him.  He chose them out of love.  They were supposed to be a light to a darkened world.  When they chose to disobey they suffered.  Adam and Eve had it made in the garden.   When they disobeyed, they had consequences.  These consequences led to their suffering.  Whenever we do something we shouldn't we pay the price.  We always reap what we sow.  That can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on our actions. 

I never said there wasn't a connection.  I said you're not saved by your good works.  That's totally diff.  How many times have I said your works are evidence of your faith?  How many times have I said works and faith work together?  That still doesn't make one saved by one's works.  In fact, scripture clearly teaches against this..

"For by grace are you saved through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God; NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast."  Eph 2:8-9.  

I keep giving you this but you choose to ignore it.  Why?  Because to accept this is going to ruin your "saved by works theology." 

just for good measure here's another:

"NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, BUT according to his mercy HE SAVED US, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."  Titus 3:5

How about yet another:

"Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS but according to his own purpose and grace which was given us in Christ Jesus BEFORE the world began."  2 Tim 1:9

It's very very clear, for those with eyes to see, using your own words Lula.  Now take what you gave me and try to reconcile what I gave you.  Personal salvation is not acheived thru good deeds but thru the cleansing of the new birth which is supernatural.   Salvation is God's gracious work, not a reward for man's worthwhile acts.

Very good Leauki!  Although he wasn't speaking of the Torah specificially but the whole counsel of God which would include the Torah. 

no, the devils believe, yes, but their belief is not a saving belief.  There's a diff.  Many people believe in God but don't have a saving belief in God.  Big diff. 

That's what James was speaking about in 2:19.  If their belief did not produce good deeds it was no better than the the belief of the demons. 

kfc posts #81

This is another passage Protestants like to hang their hat upon that supposedly assures them of guaranteed salvation by "faith alone".This doesn't mean one's salvation is a "Done deal".The Lord will bring into glory all those who believe in Him and have stayed faithful to Him and His commands. 

So, once again it's not FAITH ALONE. Rather, it's faith plus good works (obedience)...Period.

True...but we don't know we are saved until we actually pass through the Heavenly gates which are narrow. 

We can lose faith which is a gift from God and we can lose grace by continued unrepentant sinning. Faith is the beginning of salvation . Faith is an element of human volition which recognizes and acknowledges God's grace and so it's the first element that establishes our relationship with God. We are all sinners but Christ didn't take upon Himself the guilt and punishment required of man for sin, sin Hell is the ultimate punishment for sin. rather, Christ became the propitiatory sacrifice in order to appease the wrath of God against sin. In this way, by His death on the Cross, He redeemed all mankind, opened the gates of grace and makes it possible for all to be saved.

Through grace God gives each one He expects the believer will exercise that grace by continuing to believe God despite circumstantial experiences of life.

Yes, Christ and St.Paul preached against legalistic works (of the Old Law), but that is not to confuse those with good works through obedience to God and His laws.

So..this is where your grave misunderstanding of what good works are should end.

Just like Abraham, the individual must please God by his faith and obedience. If he doesn't then he can't be saved. God is the sole judge of whether we please Him...and here, saying you are absolutely sure of your salvation; that it's a "done deal",  you have already judged yourself and deemed yourself worthy! 

Because you harbor a grave misunderstanding of good works, your analysis and criticism of the Catholic Church is wrong. The Church has been ever faithful to Christ's teachings and can't teach error in matters of faith and morals on CHrist's promise to be with her until the end of the world.

Good works are obedience to God's commands, prayer and almsgiving.

Then you should reread your own article again! You wrote:

KFC writes: 

The whole point of your article and comments is your shoring up your belief that you are saved by "faith alone".

It was humanity that chose the Jews to make them suffer, not G-d.

They suffered not because G-d wanted it but because of what other peoples did when the Jews had let their defences down, with their best defence being faith. It wasn't G-d punishment for disobedience when Jews suffered, it was the natural cause of events for people who lose faith.

Those who made and make the Jews suffer are not G-d's agents but their own. They do not act out G-d's will, they merely use an opportunity created by Jews losing faith in their Protector.

The Jews were already slaves when G-d chose them.