To be honest?  Yes.  How does that make you feel? 

That's it.  We must do so for the sake of being good examples.  If we all left what would be left?  It's like we need to be missionaries in our own churches.  I do see tho, that alot of this has to do with the Pastor.  The stronger, meeker, humbler the Pastor who is a spirit led believer and daily feeds on the word of God, the greater amount of believers he will have in his congregation.  The reason for that is the more the scriptures are read and loved, the more the ones not interested will find another place to "worship"  and the stronger ones will be the Christians who genuinely are interested in the things of God. 

This is my pet peeve and quite bothersome to me.  In fact, when I grieve it's over this type of situation.  These filled up churches with pride filled believers and many times non-believers give Christianity a bad name.  I understand that I probably came on too strong in the beginning so your assumption about me was not unfounded.  Besides the fact that there are more people like you first described than there are honest faithful believers out there. So of course you would think that way.  I would too.   Most are only about externals not bothering to work on the internals. 

Ya, I probably do but it's more to do with my ferverent zeal for the things of God rather than being swamped in religion.  I usually find myself at odds with man-made religion having been involved in many diff groups out there.  My life scripture says alot about me...Jer 20:7-9. 

I do talk common language with non Christians as much as possible but can't help it in this forum when all walks are listening and chiming in.  I've got to go with the flow here.  So while I may talk dogma and scripture with Lula for instance others step up and ask questions.  I have to answer them accordingly.  As far as comfort level goes, the things of God are going to make non-believers uncomfortable.  That's the nature of the beast.  Conviction usually is quite uncomfortable. 

Well Mason, that's the nicest thing you've ever said to me...    But please, if you know anything about me...I'm not about religious dogma.  Can't stand it.  Approaches being diff is a good thing.  We can reach diff people.  Paul said he's all things to all people in order that he may be able to reach them. 

You don't speak of the grace and love of God?  Why not?  You say you're a minister but you NEVER speak about God?  What about the writers of the scriptures?  What if they didn't write about it?  How would we know these things?  How about the many wonderful Christian writers over the centuries?  Many wrote beautiful hymns communicating the grace and love of God to us.  Was that for their own glory?  I think not.  That's wrong thinking Mason.   So how do you communicate?  By doing good deeds?  Noble, but if that's your way how do others know for whom you are doing this for?  I don't believe in Christian passivity.  But I also don't believe we should be a pain in the butt either...so there's a fine line there.   

I had a hair dresser say something similar to me.  She said she only shows the love of Jesus to her clients.  When I asked her how they would know it was Jesus she was doing these things for she gave me a blank look.  She didn't know. 

I try my best not to make assumptions.  But like the best of us, we are all guilty of falling into that trap aren't we?  You're right tho, most of the time they are not correct. 

haha same here although I just figured you were cantankerous and loved to push my buttons. 

This is awesome.  You're an ordained minister?  Then why aren't you ministering?  Nothing can compare to the work of God.  It has eternal value and if he's called you into the ministry, you need to minister and use your calling for his glory. 

Have you been wandering away for a while Mason?  I am so sorry still about the loss of your beloved mother.  Words can't express that but as a believer you know this isn't the end.  That in itself is a comfort that nothing can compare. 

ha!  Now you're walking right into my trap!   The choice made by Adam and Eve was AFTER they were chosen by God for salvation.  Their choice was in obedience not in the spiritual birth.  Big diff.  They ALREADY had a relationship with God.  They walked, with him, they talked with Him and they enjoyed his fellowship.  What they did was disobey him.    After we become Christians we too, are free to obey or disobey but that doesn't mean we are no longer his children.  We are already born into his family as was Adam and Eve.  Salvation is God's sovereign choice.  Obedience is where our freewill comes in. 

You said that yourself, that you walked away and sinned against God for a while.  That doesn't mean you lost your salvation or that you're not longer in the family of God.  It just means you weren't being totally trusting and obedient.  Happens to the best of us.  Like sheep we wander at times.  He pulls us back like he's doing to you right now.  It's the same with Adam and Eve. 

Yes, he loved the world but that doesn't mean he chose everyone out of the world.   Besides all that to understand the full scope of the meaning you have to look at v14 about the serpent being lifted up by Moses in the wilderness.  Only those who looked at the snake and believed were saved.  So the question begs to be asked, why do some believe and some don't?  And why did Jesus say this..."I pray NOT for the world; but for them which you have given me; for they are yours."  17:9

Not only that he goes on to say he prays for the future believers that aren't EVEN BORN YET (v20).  These are future believers.   Why doesn't Jesus pray for the WHOLE world?  Why only some? 

God loves those in the world that are his.  There is a diff between being his creation and being his child.  He gives birth to his children spiritually...and there's nothing we do to help in this birth just like there's nothing we can do in our physical birth.  That's what Nicodemus was trying to figure out in John 3.  How can we be born a second time?  Jesus answered and said it's only by the spirit of God.  That's why I gave you John 1:13.  It's not by our will, nor by our flesh.  It's all God.  Not us. 

no, that's just it.  It doesn't.  The scriptures scream out that we are dead in our sins.  What can a dead man do? 

Besides all that did you not read John 1:13?  What is your understanding? 

No, it's BELIEVE. 

 Do me a favor.  Read all of John 3 carefully and tell me..is it belief or choosing?  

No, you misundertood what I wrote there. What I meant to say is that I do not write or speak about the things that I willingly and happily do for others. To do so would be bragging in my viewpoint and would only serve me, not God. I am a firm believer in Jesus' example of doing for others as well as praying in the closet and not on the street corner.

Neither do I, but actions speak louder than words. Words are easy and for many are quite meaningless. For a non-believer, seeing the fruit has far more influence than hearing quotes of a scripture in which they don't believe. I wear a cross outside my shirt at all times. When I do a good thing for someone, it's there for them to see. It often prompts conversation (happened just today) and then the words are there, but it's the action that demonstrates the words. Christ didn't talk about sacrifice for our sins, he did it through action.

Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.

Actions speak louder than words. When one acts out of understanding of the Word, their very actions preach the Gospel.

Ooooooh, here we sorely disagree. We should not ever attend church (or do anything else) for the sake of being a good example. Never, ever. We attend church to worship God and to be in fellowship (yeah, I know, Christian-ese LOL) with our brothers and sisters. No other reason is legitimate in my opinion. Hypocrites do things to set examples, those of faith do them because they are right and good and because they truly want to do so.

I find great joy in worship, even in a church that I can see right off is on the wrong path. I have sat through many a service where I heard what I knew in my heart was wrong preaching, but even then I know that God knows my heart and it's Him that tells me when a sermon is off base. I've learned at least as much from studying those wrong track sermons as I have from the biblical ones.

Very true. Sadly they are the majority and they do indeed give all Christians a black eye. But we've had those sorts of churches all the way back to the earliest churches. Paul warned us against them. To be honest, I prefer to think of myself as a Follower of the Way than a Christian just because of those churches. It was the earliest name for us and I very much like it as I see it as more accurate. If I ever settle down and decide to open a church the name will be something along that line. I do consider myself a follower of the early church, a follower of the Way.

Saul spent a great deal of time, money, and effort trying to exterminate the Followers of the Way before his conversion. Seems a fitting name to me.

I undertand, but Christian-ese has been a pet peeve of mine for years

this line really did make me laugh out loud, mostly because it's at least partly true. I do enjoy challenging people as much as I enjoy being challenged. You can learn a lot about a person when you challenge their core beliefs, or at least what they claim are their core beliefs. Besides, what good is a forum if ya can't have a little fun with it. I believe a sense of humor is one of the greatest attributes of God with which we were blessed.

If anyone reading this doesn't believe that God has a sense of humor just do two things. One: look in the mirror. Two: study up on the platypus. I think I've proven my point.

Any Christian who can't laugh at themselves should perhaps re-examine their faith. We're all quite absurd and shouldn't take ourselves seriously.

I do. Daily. In the way that am called to do. Not in a church but one on one in truck stops, bars, stores, and such. We serve in the manner in which we are called. Some day I may tell you the story of how this former agnostic came to be called to ministry. Suffice it to say that my ministry is one more of the nature of a sniper and target of opportunity than of those we see and hear on tv and radio. God uses us as He sees fit.

Perhaps one day I will be settled and in a church building, in the meantime I minister in His church wherever it happens to be. And it's everywhere ya know.

Not really. I was angry and all for a few months. Mom passed away this past December. Even in my anger I still hadn't moved too far away. I always felt Him there, even when I felt more anger than anything. But He understands our pain even when we don't. The day, very recently, I finally realized that He was talking to me and calling me back to task I spent some time just sitting in my truck wiping away the tears. The final message was sent through a vagrant who needed nothing more than a kind word and a sandwich.

Thanks. I know where she is now, and for that I am grateful and joyful. It just took some time to get past the loss and personal guilt.

I saved this one for last. I've picked on you a lot and I have to admit I've enjoyed it (although I have felt a little guilty at times). Not for any sort of mean reasons but because I've enjoyed your responses. I just wanted you to know that I am not coming from any sort of hateful angle at all. We disagree on some details, but we are children of God and as such are family, as is Lula and all others who believe and trust in God. I can be a bit harsh at times but my intent is not at all evil. Sometimes we all need someone to be harsh with us, myself included.

Besides, pushing buttons can be a great source of amusement

Nope, totally misunderstood. God gave them a choice for a reason. They lost all of God's grace when they chose to disobey, which God knew they would eventually do. Their salvation came only when Jesus died on the cross, as was God's plan from the beginning. Their very existence and the choice they were given was to set the stage to show us that we need to choose between God and Satan. That is the whole point. God knew the whole plan from the beginning.

All people are presented with the exact same choice that was presented to Adam. Choose God or choose yourself. It all leads to that ultimate choice.

Both of those statements are actually quite true. Salvation is indeed God's sovereign choice, and He chose to provide it through Christ. Everyone who chooses to accept God's grace through Christ does have the choice to obey or not, but those who choose not to obey also choose to not accept that grace, they have only claimed to do so. To accept God's grace means to obey.

No I didn't. I said I was angry with Him for a while before He showed me I was actually angry at myself. Not the same thing.

Those who choose God over self. Not everyone will. That is not election but a recognition that not everyone will choose rightly.

Same answer as above.

Wrong wrong wrong. God loves all of His creation. He longs for every single human being to make the right choice although He knows many won't.

Instead of focusing on John 1:13 how about coupling in in context with John  1:12? Makes a difference because there the choice is laid out for you. Taking lines out of context will always lead you astray.

The correct text would be: Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— ¹³children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

Thus stating that those who CHOOSE to receive His grace are born again of God.Verse 13 is a description, verse 12 is what caused them to fit that description. Read the text as a whole, not as individual verses with their own singular meanings.

You must always take scriptures in context. When taken as a whole the word "choose" is what they present to us, from beginning to end. Taking verses out of context will always lead one to a wrong belief.

If you read John 3 carefully you'll find it's all about making a choice.

A choice is given.

All this debating about who God chose. Wasn't that the Jews?

Quite right. It was Israel that God chose to communicate the message of a single god and eventually salvation through Christ. That was the one true example of election. He chose a group of people to communiccate His message, and enabled them to prosper in order for that message to be delivered. Anyone who claims to be a Christian must also claim relation with Israel as God chose them as the ultimate vehicle of His message of salvation.

Oy, vey! Talk about tests! Makes you wonder why they're his favorites. With a supreme being like that for a friend, who needs one for an enemy?

I undertand completely. Does seem kinda harsh. Gotta love that whole Hilter thing eh?

Maybe "chosen" doesn't mean "favorite"?

Well said.

Pretty good Mason.  I agree with alot of it.  But they didn't lose grace, they lost their position.  Big diff.  Paul wrote "where sin abounds grace abounds even more."  God never runs out of grace.  God covered them when they realized they were naked before God.  The sacrifice made there in the garden bringing death into the world would point to the eventual substitute sacrifice for the world at a later time.  For now he covered them with the blood of the sacrifical animal.   A life for a life. 

Yes.  and guess what?  We would all choose the wrong choice. We would all choose self.  Everytime!    "There is none righteous, no, not one.  There is none that understands, there is NONE that seeks after God.  They are ALL gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is NONE that does good.  No, not one. "  Romans 3. 

So while I agree with you I disagree with you at the same time.  Pretty cool huh?    It has to be God Mason.  Has to. 

ok

But look at what I underlined. It doesn't say "which have chosen me" does it?    In election it works like this...The father chooses.  The Son redeems.  The Holy Spirit Seals.  All in scripture found many times.  You can see some of this in John 17.

"as many as you have given him (Jesus)."  v2

" have manifested your name to the men which you gave me out of the world; yours they were, and you gave them me" v6

"I pray not for the world, but for them which you have given me."   v9

"...keep through thine own name those whom you have given me" v11

"...those that you gave me I have kept..." v12

"Father I will that they also whom you have given me be with me where I am;"  v24

not once anywhere does it say anything about choosing, nor does it anywhere else in scripture.  Again, the Father chooses.  The Son redeems. 

I don't disagree but I'm taking a diff slant than you.  Not of us left, to our own, would make the right choice.  Again what can a dead man do?  "

It's pretty clear in John 17 that Jesus made a distinction between believers and the world. It's very clear that he's declaring his love for those who have been taken out of the world by the father who chose them out. He's only praying for and concerned for those whom the father has given him thru all eternity.   All are God's creation, but not all are called sons of God. 

we don't choose, we "receive" it as given.  It doesn't say choose there. It says we receive.  Big diff and I'm sure you, if you take a moment to think about this will have to agree.   V13 is a description of v12.  Yep.  Got that.  Agree.  But it's very clear that the new birth is supernatural.  Go a bit further in Christ's discussion with the learned Nicodemus and you'd see that Christ said the Holy Spirit comes and goes as it wishes (chap 3).  You never know when and who it will land on.  Again, it's not by our will or our flesh.  It's God who does the choosing, not man. 

Now if you go to James 1:18 you'd see James say the same thing when he said:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." 

It's all about God's will, not ours.  He is the cause of our regeneration.  In Hebrews 12 it says that Jesus is the "author and finisher of our faith."  How do you reconcile these things with man's choosing God especially when it says we are saved by grace thru faith? 

you're talking to the Choir here Mason.  I'm all about context, context, context. 

no it's about belief. There's a difference.   The quote in blue you gave here:

is a true statement about belief. It's true.  Whoever believes has eternal life and whoever rejects doesn't.  The question is how do we come to belief?  How do we revive ourselves?  If we are dead in our sins how can we regnerate ourselves?  You know how a generator works right?  It gives life to an otherwise dead object to get it functioning properly. 

 Can you regenerate yourself?  Can you give birth to yourself?  Are you familiar with Lydia?  If you go to the 16th chapter of Acts you'd see that the "Lord opened her heart" so she could believe.  The same with Paul on the road to Damascus, the Lord opened his eyes.  They were both dead in their sins.  That's why Christ said "let the dead (spiritual) bury the dead (physical)." 

Nowhere in scripture will you find us being told to choose God.  Nowhere.  We can't in our sinful state. 

If you get a bible and look in the back under the concordance (some bibles are better than others) and look under the words, chosen, choose, chose etc you'd see quite clearly that it's God who does the choosing, not us.  If it were up to us we wouldn't choose God. 

Yes, it's quite clear that God chose Israel.  But his MO hasn't changed.  I know where you're coming from Mason and I can completely see why you believe what you do.  It's easier to explain in some ways but remember our ways are not His ways.  He chose us in the same way he chose Israel.  You see the same language consistent throughout Old and New Testaments.

In the OT the Jews were considered the wife of Jehovah and later were called up on charges of adultery for whoring after other gods.   In the NT the church is called the bride of Christ.  In the OT the Jews were called his kingdom of Priests and in the NT the Church is given the same distinction.  To be sanctified means to be "set apart."  Just as the Jews were sanctified for God, so too are the Christians today.  There really is no difference. 

Well I don't either.  I have two ministries here in my transplanted state that I'm sure you know nothing about.  I'm not hiding it, but there hasn't really been a reason to expound on it either.  I remembered once when I was a newlywed young mother I happened to read an article in the local paper about another young family who got burned out of their home.  Somebody was looking for donations.  I went around my home and bagged up whatever I could spare, not having much myself.  I managed to fill a big plastic trashbag with towels, sheets, and whatever I could at the time.  I even remembered giving away a very nice afghan that I loved thinking I should sacrifice something valuable to me.   I remember not telling anyone, not a soul about it because I only wanted God to know.  Not even sure if I told my husband. 

While we shouldn't do things for bragging rights sometimes it might be good to let others know about a particular need even letting them see that you're participating to encourage them to do so as well. 

he did both.  He talked quite a bit about it before doing it.  In fact some got angry when he said he was heading to the cross.  He spoke about his temple being destroyed and in three days would raise it up. The Pharisees got mad.   He told his disciples he was going to die and Peter tried to stop him.  Remember that?   Both words and actions are important.  If you just do actions without the words, then how will one know?  How will it be anything diff than just a humantarian act?  Sometimes, a word isn't necessary but often it's good to use words to explain why you do what you do. 

If Jesus just died on the cross and never said a word, what would we think?  Let me tell you...We would think he was just another common criminal who got on the wrong side of the Romans. 

I have a friend here who washes houses.  He uses every opportunity he can to invoke God's name to let others know his love for God.  It may be just a little "God has blessed me" statement.  If it opens up to something else, so be it.  If not, same thing.  He lets the spirit lead.  That's what we are to do. 

You've got to give room for the diff gifts.  For one preaching is as natural as breathing for another it's excruciating.  We are all in some form of fashion tho told to preach the gospel.  We are all told to "go and tell" and to be ready to explain "the reason for the hope that lies within us."   Actions are very important.  So are words.  Without preaching how would one understand the gospel? 

Christ instituted the church for two reasons.  First and foremost, as you say, to worship God.  Second and almost as important to edify one another.  Part of that edification purpose is to set good examples.  There's nothing wrong with that.  I didn't say we should go to church solely to set a good example.  It goes with being a good edifyer.  Paul said "follow me as I follow Christ."  He was saying he's doing his best to set a good example, good enough for us to follow him as he follows Christ. 

I can't believe we are really in that much of a disagreement here.  Do you really?  There are many Christians staying home.  I don't think they are setting good examples nor do I believe they are being obedient.  Christ loved the church and gave his life for it.  He wants us to fellowship one with another the same way a mother loves to see her children come together once they have grown and moved out of the house. 

We've been talking about starting a new church here and calling it "The Cross."  That's it.  Not "The Cross Church" or "Church of the Cross."  But just..."The Cross."   The thought being that when someone says where do you go to church you would reply,  "We go to The Cross."   Also, we're thinking the entry way would be a very large cross.   So to get into the building you would have to enter via the cross.  Nobody gets in unless they go "thru the cross."  

We've seen and been to so many "First Baptist" and "Second Baptist" churches (one in every town around here)  we even thought of calling our new church "The Last Baptist Church" just for kicks.  Another name we came up with was "The church of the Wretched."  That might get some notice as well.   We are not conventional by any means. 

mine too but not sure if we're speaking the same language or not.  I call it religiousity.  I run into that quite a bit especially down here.  Didn't get it so much up North as here.  In the north, they're more honest. There's not as many churches and even those are not well attended.  The ones going are probably going mostly for the right reasons.   Here it's all about being religious but not having a clue about what it means to be a true blue Christian.  They've got all the actions and words nailed down, but they seem empty inside.  It's all about prayer meetings, baptisms, church functions and membership.  Who cares what the bible says. 

Yes.  Me too.  Remember this when we discuss the issue of freewill/election.  My prior conversations with those of the freewill persuasion usally always results in them being very angry that I can't see their freewill position.  Almost everytime.  And it's not that anyhow.  I can absolutely see what they are saying.  I just can't reconcile that with the scriptures.  I don't think it's anything to get angry over.  It's certainly not a salvation issue.  There are good Christians on both sides of the fence.  In my opinion, it's almost as if they have to believe they were somehow instrumental in their choosing God.  Quite often they have loved ones that are not born again, and their relationship with God depends on man's freewill not God's election for the reason their relative can't see the light. 

ha!  That's what I say!  You've got that right.  This is coming from one who used to be quite serious.  Now I'm learning it's not about me anyhow, so let go and let God right?  Enjoy every moment of that gift of another day. 

Yes, even on the internet!  But I guess I was surprised because while you write about bars, and truck stops and knitting I had no idea.....

I would love to hear it.  Absolutely.   Sounds interesting. 

Of course God understands.  I mean afterall he made us and knows exactly what we're made of.  Anger is all part of the grieving process.  I love how he uses the simple things and people to speak to us.  When he does, it's like a jolt.  We know exactly where the message is coming from.  He knows exactly how to get our attention. 

Well that's good to know.  And honestly Mason, at least I feel with you, even in those times of your pushing my buttons, that I'm having an intelligent conversation with someone.  Can't say that about everyone around here..

Agree.  Even the harshness speaks of love.  It all has to do with what motivates us.  A father disciplines his child because he loves them.  I say hard things sometimes not to be mean but to challenge one to think about what they're doing. 

It doesn't.  It usually means to "appoint" or to "select."  It can also mean to "ordain." 

In Eph 1:4  where the doctrine of election bulks large the word for "chosen" in the Greek is "eklego" and means "to pick out, choose."   This word occurs 21 times in the NT and is regularly translated in the KJV as "choose" 

The adjective derived from it, eklektos, is translated "elect" 16 times and "chosen" 7 times.  Thus the idea of election is definitely involved.