Our entire lives are a constant test. We are tested constantly in some fashion or another. Who among us lives a totally stress-free, perfect life? That is the very nature of life itself.

Very good and a very accurate observation (although I know it wasn't directed to me). This "testing" thing is a common theme among Christians, and somewhat inaccurate. Those of faith and those not of faith face the exact same trials and troubles in life. Sometimes those trials actually bring someone to faith (often in fact). I do not belive that God causes us those troubles, they are just a part of physical life on this little ball of dirt.

God does not test us. He does, however, watch over those of faith and gives us the strength to get through the problems of life with a sense of well being and peace that those without faith often lack.He can and does use those trials for our ultimate good although sometimes we can have a hard time seeing the good while in the midst of the situation.His assistance, through faith, grows our faith. The result is the same as they believe, but the nature is not.

Blaming God for the misfortunes that befall us and calling it a "test" is a misunderstanding of the nature of God, and is ultimately wrong thinking in my opinion.

You obviously don't understand the definition of the word selfish. The desire to do something for someone else, or to glorify someone else, is the exact opposite of selfish behavior.

Drives me nuts. Listen to the Christian radio station of your choice and you'll hear a lot of talk about money and finances. Entire ministries are built upon it. And people buy in to it, literally. Great business but lousy religion.

My grandfather once told me "Never trust a rich preacher"

God not only wants us to stand on our own two feet, but he expects it from those of faith. Those who aren't willing to work don't eat. He expects us to do for ourselves. Some Christians these days have a very wishy-washy view of what a Christian man should be...basically a wimp, but the bible tells us very differently. God expects a person to stand on his/her own, be strong, and do for themselves as well as for others. That requires strength and charactor. A true person of faith is very much on their own two feet, but without the pride and self-centeredness that is so common in the world.

I have a little different answer than KFC. In short, He doesn't. He simply gives us a choice. We can live a very full, rich life without ever believing in Him. He allows that without condition.

He also provides us the choice to believe in Him and to accept His grace in which case we are allowed to spend eternity with Him.

A being capable of creating an entire universe could certainly force his creation to do His will if he chose to do so, but instead He allows us to make our own choice about things. That's hardly making us dependent upon him now is it? He set up the universe so that it runs just fine whether we choose to believe in Him or not, so again we aren't dependent upon him from that perspective either.

He could have made us so that we had no choice but to live and behave in the manner that He would want us to do so and to love Him,  but in the end what would forced love and behavior really mean?  Even we as human beings can understand the difference between forced love and love that comes from free will.

All He wants is for us to accept His gifts to us and to love Him for who He is. Nothing more. The desire to be loved is pretty much universal among human beings and that's because we were created in His image, and as such He also desires to be loved. Many see Him as wanting to subjugate us but in reality He simply wants us to love Him. That's pretty easy to understand.

His nature is not so easy for us to understand because He isn't a physical beings like us and exists outside of what we know as our universe, but He provided us with enough information to at least get some understanding of His nature if not His substance.

If He created  us and everything we know He is essentially our ultimate father and as such we should love Him as we love our biological fathers. Again, hardly dependence, just relationship.

Naturally, because of my own somewhat sarcastic writing/thinking style I got it perfectly. It was sarcasm and he is obvilously of a Christian bent.

I was with ya right up to this point. God gives everyone the same choice. It's up to each to make that choice. God may well already know who will choose one way or another, but He certainly doesn't pick and choose them. That's just absurd and totally opposed to what we can know of His nature. God didn't give us free will just so He could decide who will accept His grace and who wouldn't. The very thought is both absurd and an insult to the nature of God.

KFC, my apoligies for the multitude of replies here. I thoroughly enjoyed this thread and couldn't help myself

God's nature in the Old Testament isn't so nice. Christ in the New Testament had a better nature.

The example of the thief on the cross who repented and was saved is fine as long as  death isn't quick.

A spiritual pissing contest.

Amen!  I agree. 

I believe he does.  He allows it which is the same.    Maybe you're getting it confused with tempting us?  God doesn't tempt us but he does allow testing for our own good.  I think of Isaac with Abraham going up that moutain.  Wasn't that a test of his faith?  How about Job?  God allowed Satan to test him which is the same as God doing it himself.  We see Paul in his writings saying such things as:  "we glory in tribulations also; knowing that tribulation works patience"  Or James saying: ""know this that the trying of your faith works patience."  It's done for our benefit to show us where we are. 

I am quite with you here on this Mason.  Most of the time for me tho its TV preachers on TBN.  I can't stand it.  There are some good preachers that do preach on money from time to time and that's ok as long as they are talking stewardship and not health and wealth like we see on TV..."send me your money and God will bless you with great wealth"...balony.  There's alot in scripture on money because how we spend our money says alot about who we are but it shouldn't be the main thing either.  There's nothing about the Christian and tithing in the NT...that's just a hint right there. 

Your grandfather is wise.  He would like my husband!!  As a CPA he made very good money.  He left the profession and took a very very deep paycut to go into the ministry even selling his lucrative business.  His briefcase was even held together with a bungy cord.  When the church offered to buy him another, he protested and said his case worked just fine.  He does wonders with bungy cords and duct tape. 

Well said Mason. 

ahhh ok.  I'll look at him from that pov then.  Thanks! 

We'll have to agree to disagree on this point.  This is an old debate one of which I'm quite familiar.  I believe to say that we have freewill "in our salvation" is to take the sovereignty of God away from him.  I believe scripture is quite clear as Jesus said "You did not choose me, I chose you."  He also said we can do nothing (even choose him) unless the Father ordains it first.  All the writers in both New and Old Testaments seem to affirm this starting right from the beginning with his choosing of Israel or even further back with his choosing of Adam and Eve to be our first parents. 

no problem Mason.  I'm glad to see you here. 

Not the same at all. He does allow it, but does not cause it. Quite different. To say He is testing us would imply He is causing it to happen to us, which I argue is simply not the case at all. He can and does use it for our ultimate good, but again that's not the same as testing us.

As for Abraham, actually Abram at the time, yes God did test him directly, but the fact that it was a rare and singularly important situation is exactly why it was worthy of writing about. One can not infer from that singular situation that God regularly tests each and every one of us.

The same with Job. In that singular situation God was actually making a point to Satan, not Job. God knew Job's faith although Satan didn't. That was, in the end, a lesson to Satan himself. Remember, God created Satan too and despite his betrayal and sin, God loves Satan too just as He loves all of His creation, even those who sin against and reject Him, as is proven ouot in Christ's sacrifice for us. Many Christians have a difficult time with that concept, but God does love all that he created.

I agree with those, but perhaps the difference is in interpretation/understanding. Again, these are the normal and expected tribulations of life and not inflicted upon us by God as some sort of test. The world itself tests our faith on a daily basis. That's what they refer to here. Blame the world for your troubles, not God who gives us the strength to survive them and come out better on the other end.

Yes, I know. It's a common misconception (IMHO) among certain Christians. I do understand where you come from here, but I have to say that you're simply flat wrong. How unfair would it be to offer salvation to all of mankind and then exclude many, many people on whim? Hardly a Godly position.

When Jesus said that He chose us, he did not mean he selelcted certain people to be saved, He meant that He made the choice to provide the sacrifice needed to provide the path to salvation.  He didn't have to do that, He chose to do it, willingly. The same is true of the Father ordaining it first. That has nothing to do with choosing certain people over others (talk about ego!) but rather that the path to salvation itself, and Christ's sacrifice on the cross, was ordained by God. I realize my words won't change your thinking on this, and that's ok, I just ask that you consider them thoughtfully and in the light of how egotistical such thinking truly is. It goes back to how some Christians use their religious ideas to set themselves up as "better" than other people. "God chose me to be saved so I must be better" is the true root thought here although many don't even realize it and would deny it unless they spend some true thoughtful time examining this idea.

There isn't a single person on this planet that God doesn't love or that God wants to hand over to Satan.  Pick the worst, most wretched person on the planet and know that God loves that person too. Nothing would make Him happier than having that person accept the gift of Grace and change their very nature.

Peace.

He does cause it by allowing it and even bringing it upon us at times.  When Christ was tempted in the desert (by Satan) did you not notice that he was first led by the Holy Spirit to go there?    You mention that the world tests us.  Yes.  Agree.  But I also agree God tests us as well or using our enemies to do so as part of his testing.  God always uses people to do his will both for good and bad.  God does test (prove) the faithfulness of the people to Him.  Let me give you some not so "rare" examples. 

Moses says to the people:  "God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that you sin not."  Ex 20:20

David said to God:  "Examine me, O Lord, and prove me; try my reins and my heart."  Ps 26:2...and

"You have proved mine heart; you have visited me in the night; you have tried me, and shall find nothing; I am purposed that my mouth shall not transgress."  Ps 17:3

Job said in the same language as above:  "when he has tried me, I shall come forth as gold."  23:10   Job was speaking about God, not Satan. 

I have given much thought to this topic...more than I can tell you.  I've searched the scriptures labourously for years.  I was a freewiller, when I first started and now am convinced in the total Sovereignty of God.  I think that most Christians start out with the freewill thinking.  The deeper you study I believe the more you can't help but see election by God in the scriptures. 

It's not that God "chose me so I must be better" but "wow, I can't believe God chose me. Why me?"  But if you do the choosing yourself can't you say what you just accused the election thinkers as thinking?  Couldn't you say... "I must be better because I chose God.  So if I can do it, anybody can.  What's wrong with them?"   Choosing God in itself is a work.  Ephesians 2:8-9 is quite clear that it's all God not us, so that we can't boast.  If I chose God, then I could boast.  If he chose me, no boasting can be done because it wasn't my work.  It was his. 

What's your understanding of John 1:13? 

agree, but he loves his own even more.  Heard a sermon about that this very morning.  We're all wretches for that matter.  That's how we all start out.  I think the more wretched, the better chance of coming to salvation to tell you the truth!  It's the ones who think they're good that are in the most trouble with Him. 

who said anything about being fair?  God isn't fair.  If he were, we'd all be goners.  To be fair is to give us our just desserts.  Who said anything about him offering salvation to all of mankind?  Did he?  Yes initially but we dropped the ball.  Now he's plucking us out of the sea of life because we "all have gone astray."  Our choice is ALWAYS to go our own way, left to ourselves because of the sin which blinds us.  So I can say the same as you Mason...that you are "simply flat wrong" when you take the scriptures into account and leave opinion out of it.  It's a hard teaching, I know.  That's why we have to put our feelings and opinions aside in order to get at the truth. 

Grace and Peace to you Mason.  Without Grace, we would have no peace! 

That is exactly the point. If one could sum up the ministry of Jesus in a single word it would be "choose". That was the whole point.

That is essentially the meaning of John 3:16.

That is a blatant insult to God. He is absolutely fair. He knew when He set the rules that we couldn't possibly live up to them and so gave us the means of salvation. We first had to learn that we couldn't possibly live up to them before we could accept the gift of grace He offered to us. It's up to us to simply accept that gift. He won't force it upon anyone as that would be meaningless.

Nonsense. Which is better and more meangingfull? A person who chooses to love you or a person whom you choose and then make sure loves you? Obviously the person who makes the choice to love you is far more meaningful. BY your way of thinking God could have simply MADE everyone love and obey Him. Right from the beginning He gave us a choice starting with Adam and Eve. That is the clue that tells us He always gives us a choice and is the whole point of it all. We choose to love and obey or not. Been that way from day one.

Why do you think the whole Eden story is there in the first place? It was meant to show us that we have the choice to make. It was made full by Christ's sacrifice on the cross. The whole "election" idea is a perversion and only supported by misinterpretation of out of context verses. God made us as we are, including giving us the ability to choose between right and wrong. He knew what He was doing. He didn't want robots, He wanted people who willingly come to Him and love Him.

Even your own stance that God tests people would bear out the fact that we have a choice. One can choose rightly or wrongly, otherwise what would be the point of testing? Election simply defies both scriptural accuracy and common sense. I don not believe that God is unfair or so cruel as to create people just to be condemned. Jesus would certainly not have suffered what He did as part of a cosmic practical joke. The idea is absurd. "For God so loved the WORLD" not "For God so loved PART OF THE WORLD".

One can find justification for the election idea in scripture if they try hard enough, but in the end it goes against the scriptures when examined as a whole. When one looks at the bible from beginning to end the word "choose" screams out of it. It really is the whole point in a nutshell.