Give Up Your Faith or Your Life?
Published on August 19, 2007 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Religion
Moving right along in Revelation 6 as we read about the 5th seal, we look at v9-11 to read:

9When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Here we see the persecution of the saints.

In the January 07 USA Today a poll was taken to reveal that 17% are persecuted for their religious beliefs while 14% are persecuted for their sexual identity. Interesting, given the high volume of press coverage given to those persecuted for sexual identity in comparison to those persecuted for religious beliefs.

Also in the current news are those being held in Korea. These are Christians being held with at least two having been killed already. Persecution continues today as it has for years, and it's only going to escalate. Just mention the name of Jesus among the secular and you get a very strong sense you've said something wrong. It's ok to use "God" but not the name of Jesus Christ.

For now Christians are tolerated at best, but in the future all nations will encourage persecution as the powers of hell will come fully against all believers. The martyrs seen here in this passage were killed for their worship of Jesus.

The opening of this 5th seal brings us to the middle of Daniel's 70th week. The timeline would look something like this:


Beginning............................Middle...................................End.

l______________________l__________________ l
1,2,3,4........................................5

Birth Pangs.....................Persecution


The Anti Christ is going to lead this persecution unlike any other time in history. The breaking of this seal removes whatever is restraining him now from unleashing total persecution against the world and Christ. "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way." 2 Thess 2:7

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thess 2:4

He now will be free to persecute Christians to the fullest extent. The abomination of desolation will now be fully realized here at this time when the Anti-Christ sits on the newly built Jewish Temple and declares himself God as he schemes, plots and seeks the death of those whose allegiance is to Jesus, the one he abhors. The penalty for not worshipping the AC will be death.

As his demand of worship intensifies so too will the persecution increase. Whether or not you believe in the pre-trib or pre-wrath rapture all believe that these martyrs do die for God.

Now to keep along with Matthew as we've done, we see this played out using verses 9-22 in his gospel. This section in Matthew, as here in Revelation, is after the first 4 seals were broken.

John sees the slain "sphazo" which means to butcher, slaughter (sacrifice) to; to maim (violently); kill, slay. This may be done to mimic the OT sacrifices as seen in Leviticus 4. John sees them under the altar as if they are sacrificed or paying the ultimate price with their lives. Paul mentioned in Philippians that he would be willing to pour himself out as a drink offering for God. He too would be martyred under the hand of Nero proving he literally meant what he wrote. He loved Jesus that much.

Two reasons are given here for the deaths of these martyrs. The first would be for the Word of God. Jesus was called the Word of God by John in his gospel. Maybe these martyrs were proclaiming just these last day events much like I am doing here.

The other reason given for their untimely deaths is for a testimony. Perhaps it was their personal witness. Perhaps they died for the Word of God and the call for all to repentence.

We see here their cry is passionate. We get the sense of urgency in their cries. They will be avenged with the next seal as we will see soon. As time marches on many more martyrs will join them. Their cry is not for themselves so much as it is for God to be exalted. They see and know that Satan himself is being exalted and they wish, as we all do, that God will be the one who is exalted by all.

We ask, "how long will you allow sin to rule on the earth?" During this time many will turn to Him waiting for His justice to finally be executed. To avenge is "ekdikeo" and means punishment and retribution.

God is holy and his holiness demands justice. They cry out for holy and truth here. Their cry is not for themselves but for God.

Those who dwell on the earth describes unbelievers. They are earth dwellers who settle down and remain. This world is their home as they have made it their home. We, as Christians, are foreigners and should be treated as such. We should not be comfortable here.

Stephen, the first martyr, before he died cried out for mercy and grace for those who were about to kill him. We are now in the age of God's mercy and grace, but a time will come when judgment begins. We read in Luke 18:7-8a:

And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? “I tell you that He will avenge them speedily

The white robe would symbolize the righteousness of Christ. They can now rest in Him. Their job on earth is finished. They can enjoy heaven and rest in God's timing. Man is moving ahead for a little while longer. God has a certain time limit. He knows the number of martyrs that will die and when finished the next seal will bring about His vengeance. It's not long now he says.

Persecutiion Has a Present Purpose

My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

Testing increases our faith. Peter says this testing molds us and builds us up as Christians. He said in 4:12:

Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy. If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people’s matters. Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter.

Persecution Has a Future Purpose

The sifting of tares and wheat purifies God's believers. A non-believer will not be persecuted for the name of Christ. The church is filled with both tares and wheat. True believers will endure to the end but the non-believers will not be able to stand the heat.. Purging will occur. We read in 2 Thess 2:3:

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition

So a falling away will come first. How? Persecution. Those willing to die for God are the true believers. The rest will leave. "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us". 1 John 2:19

If persecution happened in your church, how many would stick around? What would you do? Would you be willing to die? Persecution is to be expected. Do you give up your faith or do you give up your life? Persecution is to be expected.

Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also." John 15:20

Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. Matt 16:24

Are you willing to set yourself aside? Are you willing to deny self? For the sake of Christ? Are you being persecuted? Or, are you ashamed of the name of Jesus? The two are related. We may need to be more bold in our witness. As we do so, expect persecution.

















"

Comments (Page 4)
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on Aug 31, 2007
sounds more like a nightmare than heaven to me.


yall aint gonna be availin yourselves of your allotted ration of handsome virginal studs in betwixt walks up and down them gilded byways? hopefully it won't be taken as an indication of ingratitude.
on Aug 31, 2007
I, myself, am guilty of reading half way through a long post and hitting reply before getting to the end, though I try REALLY hard not to do that, so I'm not upset this was missed and unanswered. Still, I really want to know A) Have you asked yourself these questions, and what answers, if any, have you arrived at? Or maybe even C) does it say somewhere that I do not recall that questions like this should not be entertained or answered and that's why I'm not getting any throught from the collective "you" on it?

Is God and the throne and the angels and the scrolls and all these material objects mentioned existant IN the material universe, or is it outside. My thoughts put any God on the outside of the material realm which is why I have a hard time placing material objects near to him in my imagination. I admit that thought is purely instinctive. And further, if he IS in the literal material universe...anybody have any idea where? The objects, if they are literal, must have a coordinate. A robe exists where it exists. So does a scroll. (I can admit the "God is everywhere" thing - that in my own synthesis makes sense) but not physical objects that can be handed from one place to another which was the nature of my question.


Thanks.
on Aug 31, 2007

Is God and the throne and the angels and the scrolls and all these material objects mentioned existant IN the material universe, or is it outside.
My thoughts put any God on the outside of the material realm which is why I have a hard time placing material objects near to him in my imagination.

I admit that thought is purely instinctive. And further, if he IS in the literal material universe...anybody have any idea where? The objects, if they are literal, must have a coordinate. A robe exists where it exists. So does a scroll. (I can admit the "God is everywhere" thing - that in my own synthesis makes sense) but not physical objects that can be handed from one place to another which was the nature of my question.


To me, God is the First Cause, the One, Necessary and Perfect Being, the Designer and Orderer of the Universe (Cosmos), the Origin of life, the Supreme Lawgiver and the Ultimate Good.

Unbelievers confuse "being" viewed as a universal term with "Being" which Christians refer to God. God does not happen to exist like all created things, God IS necessarily and essentially. God told Moses, "I AM WHO AM", that is, I am the ONE BEING who alone exists of Himself and is Infinite in all perfections. God had no beginning, that is, He always was, He is, and He always will be. "Being" in reference to God is, therefore, not an abstraction, but implies the Fullness of All Reality and the Infinite Unity of all Perfections.

The God we worship is a Personal God, the Creator and Conserver of all that exists, Eternal and Unchangeable in His ALmighty Intelligence and Will, Just, Merciful, Holy. He can do all things.


God is outside the world, yet God is the FIRST CAUSE of it. It is most comforting and consoling that God lovingly created Heavens and earth for His own honor and glory and for our eternal well-being. I am not my own but God's, for He keeps me from the abyss of nothingness by the exercise of His perpetual, all-abiding care.

Creation emphasizes the complete distinction between God (the spiritual) and the matter and force of the universe (the material). God is not part of material "things" and in no way identified with material "things". He is an Absolute and Transcendant Being, utterly over and above all His finite creation, but at the same time Immananet in the universe which He has made out of nothingness. "In Him, we live, and move and are." Acts. 17:28.

His Presence, His Power, His Activity, are at all times and all places necessary, not only to sustain finite life, but to make there every activity possible. A Creator who is not at the same time a Conserver is unthinkable.

Creation tells us of a Divine Person who loves us with an Infinite Love and craves our love. The FIRST CAUSE is a Personal God for an impersonal FIRST CAUSE is self-contradictory. The highest thing on earth we know is human personality, intelligence, volition, and self-consciousness. The FIRST CAUSE, as Creator of human personality, must have INtelligence, Volition, and Self-COnsciousness, for IT could not give what IT does not possess.


on Aug 31, 2007
Is God and the throne and the angels and the scrolls and all these material objects mentioned existant IN the material universe, or is it outside. My thoughts put any God on the outside of the material realm which is why I have a hard time placing material objects near to him in my imagination. I admit that thought is purely instinctive. And further, if he IS in the literal material universe...anybody have any idea where? The objects, if they are literal, must have a coordinate. A robe exists where it exists. So does a scroll. (I can admit the "God is everywhere" thing - that in my own synthesis makes sense) but not physical objects that can be handed from one place to another which was the nature of my question.


Well the only way I can think of answering this is from scripture. Scripture speaks of a third heaven. We see three heavens in scripture.

One is by day (clouds, blue sky, sun)
One is by night (stars, moon, galaxies)
One is by faith (where God's throneroom is)

Paul spoke about going up into the third heaven hearing strange utterances and things he couldn't write about. Many believe this is when he was stoned and left for dead.

As far as material objects have you ever read the last two chapters of Revelation? You'll see many material objects found in heaven, including a river, a tree with much fruit, gates, foundations, a city, etc.

on Sep 01, 2007
and craves our love


I never understood this, and I probably never will, even if you try to explain it. He started out (according to KJB) by putting his babies next to a hot stove and then thrashing them for touching it. Do you put your babies next to hot stoves? Would you have anything but gutwrenching guilt when they burned their little hands or would you kick them out of the house? Or would you rationalize that it wasn't your fault because you told them not to?

Have your older children ever turned right around and done something you told them not to which had really bad results? What did YOU do next? Did you say "I'll forgive you, but only if you do X, Y, and Z?" Have you cut off completely friends or other relatives that you've had because they did something you warned them not to?

The thing I can't get my head around with all this fire and brimstone talk is that you both claim we're God's children, and that he has an infinite and abiding love for us, yet you'd both be far more understanding and compassionate for the mistakes your own children make (and so would I) than this guy is. And don't tell me "He is! As long as you ___fill in the steps required to earn it___." Is your love for your children not unconditional? Mine is. Is God's love equally unconditional? Not even remotely close. Unconditional means without ANY conditions, and there are conditions aplenty required to not burn forever. This is something I cannot understand. In fact, I hope that my only understanding of it ever is, either while alive or after death, that it simply wasn't ever true that God's love is not unconditional. And if I have any faith in anything, I have faith in that.

Be well.
on Sep 01, 2007
I never understood this, and I probably never will, even if you try to explain it. He started out (according to KJB) by putting his babies next to a hot stove and then thrashing them for touching it. Do you put your babies next to hot stoves?


You start out by saying, it's no use to explain it because your mind is closed anyway. At least that's how it appears Ock.

Let me ask you this...do you take the stove totally out of the house so they won't get burned? Or do you tell them NOT to touch it and if they do, they learn from it? Keep in mind these children you are talking about are fully grown adults with very intelligent minds.

If you tell your child to NOT go in the street, yet he does anyway, should he be "thrashed" (your words, not mine)for his own safety.

If your child rebels against you, do you just ignore it because punishing him would mean you didn't love him?

I have a 10 month old baby in the house right now. I have not completely taken everything out of the house so he won't get hurt. I watch him, very closely, sometimes even from a distance. Sometimes he falls. I don't always prevent the falls..but he learns from those falls.

The word "no" is used quite often in rearing children. It doesn't mean they will always listen. Sometimes facing the consequences are the only way we learn.

I love my sons unconditionally, but it doesn't mean I don't hold them accountable for what they do against me. The two do not have to be mutually exclusive you know. In fact disciplining them shows my love for them.

You only discipline the child you love. You don't discipline other's children.






on Sep 02, 2007
Well it's fair that you responded as you did, KFC, because the thing I quoted that I didn't understand is not what I went on to talk about. I do not understand whay God craves ANYTHING. Including our love. It points to lack of self-esteem, which for God, is of course, utterly ridiculous.

crave /kreɪv/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kreyv] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, craved, crav·ing.
–verb (used with object)
1. to long for; want greatly; desire eagerly: to crave sweets; to crave affection.
2. to require; need: a problem craving prompt attention.
3. to ask earnestly for (something); beg for.
4. to ask (a person) earnestly for something or to do something.
–verb (used without object)
5. to beg or plead (usually fol. by for).

You start out by saying, it's no use to explain it because your mind is closed anyway. At least that's how it appears Ock.


I could say the same thing about you, KFC. If what I or others in the world say doesn't fall into your neat little description of religious doctrine, then you rule it out. When I asked questions earlier, your response (very predicatbly, by the way) was "Well the only way I can think of answering this is from scripture." Do you even have a brain? Do you think of anything on your own or are you just an automaton who takes input where every page of the bible is a punchcard that runs through your default programming?

It isn't my mind that is closed, but yours. And yours is closed by direction of the scriptures you read. No matter what gets told to you, or suggested to you, or proposed to you, if it doesn't fit in with what you already think or see written in the good book, it's the work of a "closed mind." Is it even possible you're wrong? Are you SO sure of yourself that no other viewpoint has any merit?

Then whose mind is closed?

Let me ask you this...do you take the stove totally out of the house so they won't get burned? Or do you tell them NOT to touch it and if they do, they learn from it?


The latter. And once they have learned, I am satisfied. I don't tell them "Well, it's really nice that you've learned, but unfortunately you're going to have to leave now. Sorry kids. I love you, and all, but you didn't pay attention, so you're done. Good luck. Out there."

I could respond to all of the examples you've given, (and if you ask, I'll be glad to), but I think you've missed the point. The punishment doesn't fit the crime. God is not this fire breathing jerk who is going to damn you for ALL ETERNITY for the mistakes that you make over the course of less than 100 years - even if one of them is that you don't believe Jesus is real. I have greater faith in the love of my God, and I refuse to believe the things you propose. Your God is intolerant of his children's failures, and is relentless in his destruction of the ones that don't measure up. My God understands that people try to do well, but do not always succeed, and He (in a rare capitalization of a pronoun by Ock) understands why. In short, my God is way more loving than yours by miles, and that SHOULD be impossible the way you describe him.

on Sep 02, 2007
If you take Jesus out of the equation, you take God's mercy out the equation. When God's mercy is out of the equation, all that's left is judgement. That's why Jesus is so important.

Some Isrealites once took the cover off the Ark of the Covenant, and 50,000 of them DIED because of it. The cover was also referred to as the 'mercy seat'. When taking the mercy away, people die.
on Sep 02, 2007
If you take Jesus out of the equation, you take God's mercy out the equation. When God's mercy is out of the equation, all that's left is judgement. That's why Jesus is so important.


I'm not taking anything out of the equation, and I'm not putting anything in it. What I said stands. I am more forgiving than your god is. And you are, too! You don't really believe that, do you? Maybe you do.
on Sep 02, 2007
His love is surely unconditional.

It's the same for you that it was in the Garden of Eden for Adam and Eve. There's one thing. One thing that they weren't suppose to do, one thing that you have to do. Satan tells you, "If God is so forgiving, why can't you not believe in Jesus and still be forgiven? You won't die." So you refuse to believe, to do the one thing that God said you have to do to be forgiven. You removed mercy from the equation. You will be thrown out of the Garden as surely as they were, unless you believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins. Unless you believe that, mercy HAS been removed from your equation. All you will find is judgement. It's up to you.
on Sep 02, 2007
I do not understand whay God craves ANYTHING. Including our love. It points to lack of self-esteem, which for God, is of course, utterly ridiculous.


I know for absolute surity that there is NO scripture that says God "craves" our love. Where are you getting this from?

God has many attributes, love, wisdom, mercy, judgment etc. All have to be met equally. The reason we are even here in the first place is his great love and mercy for us. You have it backwards. It's not that he craves our love. It's his desire to love us. The scripture is "we love because God FIRST loved us."

"Well the only way I can think of answering this is from scripture." Do you even have a brain?


YES, and that's the reason I DO go to scripture. You know I could very easily say the very same thing to you Ock. The reason you DON"T go to scripture is because you DON'T have a brain. But where is that going to get us huh? I believe the beginning of wisdom is the reverence and knowledge of God.

It isn't my mind that is closed, but yours. And yours is closed by direction of the scriptures you read. No matter what gets told to you, or suggested to you, or proposed to you, if it doesn't fit in with what you already think or see written in the good book, it's the work of a "closed mind." Is it even possible you're wrong? Are you SO sure of yourself that no other viewpoint has any merit?


Well you know what Ock? This word of God will be around long after you and I are dead and buried. So why wouldn't it make sense for me to go to it? It has stood the test of time and is more logical than you or I will ever be in both our lifetimes. I can give you my opinion, till the cows come home. So what? Is that what you want? My opinion? Do you just want me to give you anything I can come up with? I just happen to belive my opinion means squat in the whole scope of eternity.

The latter. And once they have learned, I am satisfied. I don't tell them "Well, it's really nice that you've learned, but unfortunately you're going to have to leave now. Sorry kids. I love you, and all, but you didn't pay attention, so you're done. Good luck. Out there."


well that's not how it was Ock. You say you are a seeker but honestly all I'm seeing here is a mocker.

God is not this fire breathing jerk who is going to damn you for ALL ETERNITY for the mistakes that you make over the course of less than 100 years - even if one of them is that you don't believe Jesus is real


well then you'd better be right.

Your God is intolerant of his children's failures, and is relentless in his destruction of the ones that don't measure up.


Not my God. He is a very patient, longsuffering and forgiving God. So this is NOT the God I worship.

I have greater faith in the love of my God, and I refuse to believe the things you propose


that's fine Ock. I would just ask that you consider "testing" the spirit of your God. Your strong word of "refuse" speaks volumes.

Who's the close minded one here?

my God is way more loving than yours by miles, and that SHOULD be impossible the way you describe him.


What's the name of your God?












on Sep 02, 2007
A friend sent me a devo today and this tagged at the end and I thought it good to tag on here.

One last thought... Searching sinners will always find a seeking Savior.

"For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." Luke 19:12

"And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13

on Sep 03, 2007
I know for absolute surity that there is NO scripture that says God "craves" our love. Where are you getting this from?


You talking to me or Lula? She's the one that said it.

So what? Is that what you want? My opinion? Do you just want me to give you anything I can come up with?


Actually, yes. I would be interested in what YOU can come up with. Pretend you were born on an island in a remote part of the ocean with enough food and water to sustain yourself, and you had to figure it out without the book. In fact, part of that is my point. You quote lines about seeking. Why not write me something about why it's important to seek without quoting lines? I would find the thoughts of your own mind far more personal.

What's the name of your God?


Is this a real question? Let me run you through my close minded logic one more time - for old time's sake.

1. The universe is huge. That's an understatement. Because of my few tidbits of gathered scientific knowledge here and there, I believe there are others out there.
2. And I don't look at the Jesus story as if it's a road show put on by a group of actors. If those others out there need to be "saved" then there must be other vehicles for it.
3. If that is so, then I can extrapolate there may be ONE group of others out there with nothing to go on but their thoughts.

My God is their God and has no name because he/she/it is a concept in our minds (since we think about it without labeling anything, such as a Bible or the words of other members of Mankind, as *necessarily* true). We are educated guessers, and we delineate ourselves from others by admitting to that fact. I suppose if I wanted to invent a religion, I could, but I don't. I want to understand. Totally personal between me and Him. In fact, we (He and I) talk about it all the time. He's very real to me. I'm willing to be wrong. I'm very ready to be sorry. In fact, being sorry for the wrongs I do is a part of my very survival - I don't expect you to believe that based on the words. You'd have to be my neighbor and see who I really am. Not the guy that pushes buttons here on these forums. A very few have stayed with me long enough on these blogs to see that Ock is an onion with many layers, and underneath this top curmudgeonly, caustic, sarcastic, and every once in a blue moon insightful, layer is someone willing to die for everyone's right to exist. Both those I agree with and those I do not. I believe these things because of the thoughts I put together, synthesizing everything I observe with my senses. It makes logical sense without a book to go by. I feel it important to come to these conclusions in this way, and I realize it may not be everyone's cup of tea. I do wonder, of two people - one who brings God understanding that he gleaned from everyone telling him what to think, and the other bringing to God his understanding that he meditated his way to, which will be Cain, and which will be Abel? Able will be Abel - if you believe in that parable - because Cain knows, and Abel knows he doesn't know, but seeks to - which is MY interpretation of the Jeremiah quote.

I don't say this in any way to try and get you to agree. I'll take it easy for a bit, because it isn't my intent to be so arrogant and obnoxious that that is all you can see - and I am now a bit fearful that you think I come here solely to mock (as you have said twice now). I came to encourage you and others to strengthen your beliefs with something besides what other people tell you. Something that comes from deep inside your own living mind. Something that only one entity ever needs to know you think, and to know that you DO think. If you can suspend what you think *I* think for a few moments, can you accept these things I've said (just in this paragraph - I don't expect you to accept it all)?

In closing, minus the disclaimer at the end, I'd like to humbly and sincerely apologize for giving you the idea I was mocking you or anyone. I hope with my explanation that you will see that there is a method to my madness and will accept this apology. That method can be summed up pretty simply in this short phrase: To know God, To know You, and for You Both to know Me.

As a disclaimer I'll say two things. Use of the word "God" in the previous paragraphs is not meant to invite the typical images that anthropocentrism have wrought in us humans over time. And using the gender specific pronouns is only done for the ease of the discussion.
on Sep 03, 2007
"Craves our love"---I'm the one who first said it in #48.
I wrote:
Creation tells us of a Divine Person who loves us with an Infinite Love and craves our love.


It's Christ who craves our love. Why? Becasue He came to save us and He knows that it is through true love of God and our neighbor which He summed up as the new commandment that we are saved.

on Sep 03, 2007
And I don't look at the Jesus story as if it's a road show put on by a group of actors. If those others out there need to be "saved" then there must be other vehicles for it.


Ock, all that you've written in these lastest posts are written in true modernist fashion. Agree or not, it truly is "religion" according to Ock.

On what basis do you come up with the notion that there must be other vehicles for salvation?



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