Give Up Your Faith or Your Life?
Published on August 19, 2007 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Religion
Moving right along in Revelation 6 as we read about the 5th seal, we look at v9-11 to read:

9When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Here we see the persecution of the saints.

In the January 07 USA Today a poll was taken to reveal that 17% are persecuted for their religious beliefs while 14% are persecuted for their sexual identity. Interesting, given the high volume of press coverage given to those persecuted for sexual identity in comparison to those persecuted for religious beliefs.

Also in the current news are those being held in Korea. These are Christians being held with at least two having been killed already. Persecution continues today as it has for years, and it's only going to escalate. Just mention the name of Jesus among the secular and you get a very strong sense you've said something wrong. It's ok to use "God" but not the name of Jesus Christ.

For now Christians are tolerated at best, but in the future all nations will encourage persecution as the powers of hell will come fully against all believers. The martyrs seen here in this passage were killed for their worship of Jesus.

The opening of this 5th seal brings us to the middle of Daniel's 70th week. The timeline would look something like this:


Beginning............................Middle...................................End.

l______________________l__________________ l
1,2,3,4........................................5

Birth Pangs.....................Persecution


The Anti Christ is going to lead this persecution unlike any other time in history. The breaking of this seal removes whatever is restraining him now from unleashing total persecution against the world and Christ. "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way." 2 Thess 2:7

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thess 2:4

He now will be free to persecute Christians to the fullest extent. The abomination of desolation will now be fully realized here at this time when the Anti-Christ sits on the newly built Jewish Temple and declares himself God as he schemes, plots and seeks the death of those whose allegiance is to Jesus, the one he abhors. The penalty for not worshipping the AC will be death.

As his demand of worship intensifies so too will the persecution increase. Whether or not you believe in the pre-trib or pre-wrath rapture all believe that these martyrs do die for God.

Now to keep along with Matthew as we've done, we see this played out using verses 9-22 in his gospel. This section in Matthew, as here in Revelation, is after the first 4 seals were broken.

John sees the slain "sphazo" which means to butcher, slaughter (sacrifice) to; to maim (violently); kill, slay. This may be done to mimic the OT sacrifices as seen in Leviticus 4. John sees them under the altar as if they are sacrificed or paying the ultimate price with their lives. Paul mentioned in Philippians that he would be willing to pour himself out as a drink offering for God. He too would be martyred under the hand of Nero proving he literally meant what he wrote. He loved Jesus that much.

Two reasons are given here for the deaths of these martyrs. The first would be for the Word of God. Jesus was called the Word of God by John in his gospel. Maybe these martyrs were proclaiming just these last day events much like I am doing here.

The other reason given for their untimely deaths is for a testimony. Perhaps it was their personal witness. Perhaps they died for the Word of God and the call for all to repentence.

We see here their cry is passionate. We get the sense of urgency in their cries. They will be avenged with the next seal as we will see soon. As time marches on many more martyrs will join them. Their cry is not for themselves so much as it is for God to be exalted. They see and know that Satan himself is being exalted and they wish, as we all do, that God will be the one who is exalted by all.

We ask, "how long will you allow sin to rule on the earth?" During this time many will turn to Him waiting for His justice to finally be executed. To avenge is "ekdikeo" and means punishment and retribution.

God is holy and his holiness demands justice. They cry out for holy and truth here. Their cry is not for themselves but for God.

Those who dwell on the earth describes unbelievers. They are earth dwellers who settle down and remain. This world is their home as they have made it their home. We, as Christians, are foreigners and should be treated as such. We should not be comfortable here.

Stephen, the first martyr, before he died cried out for mercy and grace for those who were about to kill him. We are now in the age of God's mercy and grace, but a time will come when judgment begins. We read in Luke 18:7-8a:

And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? “I tell you that He will avenge them speedily

The white robe would symbolize the righteousness of Christ. They can now rest in Him. Their job on earth is finished. They can enjoy heaven and rest in God's timing. Man is moving ahead for a little while longer. God has a certain time limit. He knows the number of martyrs that will die and when finished the next seal will bring about His vengeance. It's not long now he says.

Persecutiion Has a Present Purpose

My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

Testing increases our faith. Peter says this testing molds us and builds us up as Christians. He said in 4:12:

Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy. If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people’s matters. Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter.

Persecution Has a Future Purpose

The sifting of tares and wheat purifies God's believers. A non-believer will not be persecuted for the name of Christ. The church is filled with both tares and wheat. True believers will endure to the end but the non-believers will not be able to stand the heat.. Purging will occur. We read in 2 Thess 2:3:

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition

So a falling away will come first. How? Persecution. Those willing to die for God are the true believers. The rest will leave. "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us". 1 John 2:19

If persecution happened in your church, how many would stick around? What would you do? Would you be willing to die? Persecution is to be expected. Do you give up your faith or do you give up your life? Persecution is to be expected.

Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also." John 15:20

Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. Matt 16:24

Are you willing to set yourself aside? Are you willing to deny self? For the sake of Christ? Are you being persecuted? Or, are you ashamed of the name of Jesus? The two are related. We may need to be more bold in our witness. As we do so, expect persecution.

















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Comments (Page 5)
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on Sep 03, 2007
You talking to me or Lula? She's the one that said it.


well I was talking to you. I was responding to #52 but I guess it was Lula who started it all. I missed her posting and only replied to what you wrote.

Actually, yes. I would be interested in what YOU can come up with.


Well sometimes I do give my opinion that is strictly my own, but I do honestly say it's opinion not fact when I do so. There are so many opinions out there. I have to say, I'm more interested in truth and facts than opinion.

My opinion generally is in line with the historic Christian Faith because I believe the historic Christian Faith had the truth. I have had many experiences in my life that have lined up with this faith as well. So it's not just coming up with something out of just any book Ock. I actually have had something interesting happen this week that I will probably write about soon. I can't right now for time sensitive reasons. I

t's the same God that I read about in the bible that works in my life as well. His word has been proven to me time and time again. Why wouldn't I go to it for my every need? When we want to talk to God we pray. When we want to listen to God we read his word.

The Word of God like I've said before makes more sense than anything this world has to offer. Of course I take great stock in what it has to say as well as the many Christians of yesterday, today and tomorrow. His word feeds and waters our souls.

I want to understand


What do you want to understand Ock?

I don't expect you to believe that based on the words. You'd have to be my neighbor and see who I really am. Not the guy that pushes buttons here on these forums. A very few have stayed with me long enough on these blogs to see that Ock is an onion with many layers, and underneath this top curmudgeonly, caustic, sarcastic, and every once in a blue moon insightful, layer is someone willing to die for everyone's right to exist.


This is true. I can say some of the same. It's sometimes hard to convey our true personalities via a blog site. It's hard for me anyways. I could say the same about dying but it would be more in the spiritual realm. Jesus said "there is no greater love than one willing to die for another." Many people have come to the faith because another took their place in death, including the one we worship. The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the faith.

I came to encourage you and others to strengthen your beliefs with something besides what other people tell you


And that's what I do as well. I am NOT a follower Ock when it comes to mankind that is. I am the world's biggest skeptic. I don't take to things easily. God got ahold of me and showed me who he was and I heard it loud and clear. It's God I'm following, not men.

Something that comes from deep inside your own living mind.


My mind has been transformed by God himself Ock. My mind is not conformed to this world. I've exchanged the things of this world for what God has to offer. And one of these things he's offered (you won't like this much) is his word. I believe absolutely (have tested it) that his word is truly quick and powerful and has the ability to change lives and reach the deepest darkest heart. I've seen it. I've experienced it. I know it.

I hope with my explanation that you will see that there is a method to my madness and will accept this apology.


Of course. I'll try to look harder for your method....lol.

Use of the word "God" in the previous paragraphs is not meant to invite the typical images that anthropocentrism have wrought in us humans over time. And using the gender specific pronouns is only done for the ease of the discussion.


What typical images might you be referring to? I'm also taking it that you are a believer that God could/might be a "she?"

To know God, To know You, and for You Both to know Me


This is good. I have a saying that I like that goes..."live in such a way that those who know you, but don't know God will come to know God because they know you."






on Sep 04, 2007
Lula:
On what basis do you come up with the notion that there must be other vehicles for salvation?


I said I believe there must. Not that there must. Subtle difference.

And I outlined why. I don't think we're alone in the universe, and I don't think Jesus and the gang did a road show to all planets with sentient life, and I don't believe salvation requires a specific dogma. The reason I believe this, which is the crux of what you're asking me, I think, is that all sentient life everywhere deserves an equal opportunity to experience "salvation" for the sole reason that they didn't ask to be here.

Words without deeds are dead, so I hear. Can a person take actions with no words involved? I think so. *Think,* mind you, not know. Why do I think that? Well, because I make what you would perhaps consider a mistake. I transpose my idea of love and compassion and tolerance and understanding onto God, and then I imagine that if it's God, it must be even more than I have transposed. To break that down into simpler terms, whatever I might have compassion for, God must surely have more. And whatever I am tolerant of, God must surely be more tolerant, etc...etc...etc...

Going farther, with this in mind, if I see a person, born into abject whatever negative situation you might imagine, fall susceptible to the very basic and proven tenants of behavioral psychology and then as a result become less than stellar human beings - to include whatever definitions YOU might ascribe to that appelation - such as accepting Jesus, etc... - I may not like it, but I understand it, and I don't feel condemnation for that person. How much more forgiving and understanding must God be given my aforementioned transposition explanation?

To break that down into simpler terms, if I light a fire, and I throw a piece of paper into that fire, I am not upset when the paper catches on fire and burns. It makes perfect sense to me.

KFC:
What do you want to understand Ock?


Everything. I have put my soul on the line, and in a big way. I feel having a brain is a gift. I don't trust the greater part of mankind to tell me something that is true (the skeptical thing you mentioned) and I see lots of reasons to suspect I haven't been told the whole correct story about the beginning, the middle, or the end based on the meddling of humans and their continuing nature to care more about control than truth.

Now we could argue ad nauseum about why you think the word in the Bible are all true just how they are, and I think we both know that would get us absolutely nowhere. Suffice it to say, if and when an afterlife occurs for me, I am willing to put my soul on the line for one reason. Because I don't want to get there and have the almighty (or a representative) ask me the following question. "What do you think I gave you a brain for?"

You say you don't follow, and that you've seen things in your life that showed you that the word you read is true. And what happens next is I ask you for an example, and you tell me one, and I say "I don't see how that proves anything about that word." Not that I am saying it does NOT have anything to do with it, but truth requires proof, and proof requires lack of coincidence, and that brain I was given keeps saying "It could be a coincidence." And here's why.

You take a look at good things that have happened and ascribe it to the fact that you try very hard to live by those words. And I could say "Hey, I drove home today, and didn't get into an accident, so it must because I'm doing something right (aside from paying attention to the road). I realize this is an extreme example, but I hope you get my point. Today I read in a publication the Navy music program puts out every month that we were mourning the passing of a certain flute player, who right before she was about to graduate from the Armed Forces School of Music, was killed. (It didn't say how - just "accidental injuries.") It went on to say that she was a member of certain churches, and was a girl scout. Seemed to be, from the write up, a stellar member of the Christian society, and BOOM. Gone. Is this an indication that she wasn't living the words the right way? Maybe. But I see it as a coincidence.

Why? Because of the whole free will thing. The reason God doesn't have an office on Park Avenue is because we have to go it alone to prove we get it. Any influence whatsoever has the potential to skew thought processes that might not otherwise have occurred without said influence. Of course, the bible is full to the brim with such skewing. The Lord in Genesis directed peopel this way and that, to take actions this way and that, making these and those promises. If nothing else, it indicates he knew the furture results of these things. But it seems a little heavy handed. (to me) Aka it makes no sense (to me). So when you ask "What do you want to know," the answer is I want to know why these things do not make sense to me. Not so I can convert, but because I have a brain, and if nothing else, I will not go to Pearly Gates (or Obsidian ones) and be asked "Why didn't you think? I gave you a brain" and I'll stake my soul (and have) on the belief that my effort at synthesizing all of my life's experience into an answer that coexists without conflict with what I observe is an ACTION that trancends any word that could be put to it. If I'm wrong, I will happily admit it at that time and suffer whatever I have to suffer for it.

So this answer is getting long, and it's probably rambly, because I hold a lot of the stuff I think in my head in three dimensions. A Logic Tree which has many branches (that's two dimensions) and then the branches have branches (three dimensions) and so on and so forth ad infinitum. Paper (or blogspace) is two dimensional. It's hard to write about and convey my meaning.

What typical images might you be referring to? I'm also taking it that you are a believer that God could/might be a "she?"


I'll start with the last part first. It's a shorter answer. I do not ascribe a gender to an all powerful deity. And that leads into the first part. Because doing so is anthropomorphic which you probably understand is the tendency of humans to give God human characteristics - including gender. It makes him easier to relate to and is a classic trait of human psychology that seems to be in every human earthling. Someone once wrote something to the effect of (I forget who) that if humans had thumbs growing out of the top of their shoulders, then the pictures of god painted onto cave walls would have thumbs growing out of his shoulders.

As for Anthropocentrism, it, like morphism, is the tendency humans have had, quite documented (ask poor Galileo and Copernicus), that always leads them to believe we're at the center of everything. It started with the earth being the center of the solar system. Then when that was wrong, it was that the solar system was the center of the galaxy. Wrong again. Milky Way is the center of the universe then? Doubt it. But anthropocentrism plays into all religions quite nicely. We also want to believe we're at the center of our chosen deities attention, and meaning, and of all existance, and I don't find that any more plausible than that the earth is at the center of the universe.

That's enough for one day.

Cheers.





on Sep 04, 2007
I'm more interested in truth and facts than opinion.


BINGO!

We can get opinions 24/7...and that's OK...but opinions only go so far. They won't necessarily give inner peace and joy and they won't lead to eternal life in Heaven.

The Truth and nothing but the Truth---is God's Truth...and God's written Truth is found in Sacred Scripture.
on Sep 04, 2007
What do you think I gave you a brain for?"


God's more concerned about the heart Ock. He does want us to love him with our whole heart, soul and mind, but it's the heart he's after, not the intellect.

and that brain I was given keeps saying "It could be a coincidence." And here's why.


after a while, it's clear the things happening are NOT coincidences. I've gone that route (being the big skeptic myself).

Have you ever read "The Case for Christ?" It was a best seller and still sells well. You can get it at Walmart. It's written by Lee Strobel who was an editor for the Chicago Times. He was an atheist. His wife became a Christian and he saw great changes in her. So she challenged him one day to investigate God and his word like he did murders for the newspaper. So he did. He started looking at the evidences, like the eyewitness evidence, the circumstantial evidence, corroborating evidence, etc. He flew all over the country (because he had connections) and started interviewing the best in their perspective fields (using his mind) and by the end of it was convinced that the bible is truly the word of God, and became a Christian in the process. He spent most of the book playing the devil's advocate, trying to call things coincidences when he realized he no longer could.

But it seems a little heavy handed. (to me) Aka it makes no sense (to me). So when you ask "What do you want to know," the answer is I want to know why these things do not make sense to me.


I try not to quote scripture to you Ock but can you bear with me as I give you a good answer here? The reason it doesn't make sense to you is you do not have the mind of Christ. We can't understand heavenly things unless we're heavenly minded. That's what Paul was talking about when he said:

"Be not confromed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is good and acceptable and the perfect will of God." Romans 12:2

"Be renewed in the spirit of your mind." Eph 4:23

"......we have the mind of Christ." 1 Cor 2:16b

In this world it gets busy and crazy and it's confusing. The best thing to do is look up. Imagine yourself in a forest. All you see are trees and you're lost. You're confused. If you look up you can see an opening. It's the same spiritually. For a better outlook......uplook!









on Sep 04, 2007
BINGO!


yes, Lula....BINGO to you as well.

on Sep 04, 2007
And I outlined why. I don't think we're alone in the universe, and I don't think Jesus and the gang did a road show to all planets with sentient life


but we can't know Ock so why bother going there? Nothing has been found thus far so that's all we can go on. As far as I'm concerned there could or could not be. It's pretty equal here. In the long run does it really matter?

and I don't believe salvation requires a specific dogma.


me either. Not dogma, only belief. That's all God is asking. Believe and follow me he says. That's it. I'm not much into the man-made religion thing. I do believe God wants us to assemble together but I think many times we tend to go overboard with all sorts of creeds and pillars and such and we end up too "churchy". Jesus just said, follow me.

and I see lots of reasons to suspect I haven't been told the whole correct story about the beginning, the middle, or the end based on the meddling of humans and their continuing nature to care more about control than truth.


I actually agree here with you on this. I get angry sometimes with "religion" because I too think people are NOT being told the truth. I agree quite often it is about control and power and money. Truth takes a back seat in alot of churches today. That's why I stress one needs to search out a really good "bible believing" church regardless of denomination. Are they in there, pulling out the truth? Or are you going to church on Sunday to feel good? Are you being taught fairy tales or the truth of God?
on Sep 05, 2007
God's more concerned about the heart Ock. He does want us to love him with our whole heart, soul and mind, but it's the heart he's after, not the intellect.


With respect, KFC, have your brain removed, and then tell me what your heart thinks. Your heart is a muscle. It pumps blood. That's all it does. Things that people "feel emotionally" that they call "feeling with their heart" is still the brain.

Have you ever read "The Case for Christ?" It was a best seller and still sells well. You can get it at Walmart.


Well, I have no access to Walmart in Italy, but I do have access to Amazon.com where I get all my books. And since what I've been "preaching," if you'll forgive the use of the word, is that thought should be a synthesis of many inputs, as opposed to one input, (though I know you believe it's all you need, and maybe you're right, but maybe you'll indulge me here.) I will happily read and discuss "The Case For Christ." Will you read and discuss "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" by Julian Jaynes? I can almost assure you you WON'T find it at Walmart, though. It's not an anti-Christian book. I have no use in that kind of discussion. I'm not an atheist or a Dawkins fan or anything like that, and wouldn't be so base as to just - for each pro-Christian book you throw at me, to throw an equally anti-Christian book at you. Not at all. Jaynes' book is just another theory on Consciousness that he devolped while working with epileptics. And another title, this one having almost nothing to do with religion, but which still causes me to think - no specific thing - just to think is a classic work: "Godel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas F. Hofstadter.

In this world it gets busy and crazy and it's confusing. The best thing to do is look up. Imagine yourself in a forest. All you see are trees and you're lost. You're confused. If you look up you can see an opening. It's the same spiritually. For a better outlook......uplook!


Perhaps I should state here that I do have this as a default answer. I remember when stationed in San Diego, which was a very trying time in my life, I would go out on the back deck of the building I worked in, which was on the beach, and look up, but with my eyes closed (meditatively) and let the energy pour in to galvanize me against the things that were happening in my life then. But I don't believe that feelings like these relieve me of the obligation to constantly inquire (which you may have noticed by now )

but we can't know Ock so why bother going there? Nothing has been found thus far so that's all we can go on. As far as I'm concerned there could or could not be. It's pretty equal here. In the long run does it really matter?


For me, it matters, because if discovered, it would then be a truth. And a truth that would question current "salvational" topics. And I consider this truth to be a high possibility - just statistically speaking. Just because I cannot see something physically, including God, does not mean I'm going to blind myself to its possibility. I will at *least* say "What if..." and then play out the logic to see where it goes and how it could be integrated into any doctrine.

I have no doubt that the Bible is well written to support itself. This could be for two reasons. It's either exactly what you say it is, or it's psychologically well crafted by men. And there's some really good stuff in there. Most of it, I try to live. But there is some of it that reek of "human control" or "people management," if you will, by the social construct that were the priests of the day. That's the part I do not trust.

Believe and follow me he says. That's it. I'm not much into the man-made religion thing. I do believe God wants us to assemble together but I think many times we tend to go overboard with all sorts of creeds and pillars and such and we end up too "churchy". Jesus just said, follow me.


Well, that's been my point all along. Suppose you're in Atlanta going to New York City on foot. There is a "best way" to get there. And you set off down the road. Years later, I happen to be in Atlanta and want to go to New York on foot. I also follow this best way. Of what consequence is how we discovered what the best way is? That's been my point all along. Believing in the way for the sake of the fact that it's the RIGHT way.

I actually agree here with you on this. I get angry sometimes with "religion" because I too think people are NOT being told the truth.


Even a cursory look will show how many people in the history of the world have been killed, raped, tortured, etc...in the name of some God or other. I have often believed that if there really is a Satan, then organized religion is the clearest proof of him. Nothing has ever done more to divide brother from brother.

Ciao.


on Sep 05, 2007
Hi Ock,

So, you write from Italy. One day I'd love to go there and visit all the Catholic sites. That would take quite some time!

On what basis do you come up with the notion that there must be other vehicles for salvation?


I said I believe there must. Not that there must. Subtle difference.

And I outlined why. I don't think we're alone in the universe, and I don't think Jesus and the gang did a road show to all planets with sentient life, and I don't believe salvation requires a specific dogma. The reason I believe this, which is the crux of what you're asking me, I think, is that all sentient life everywhere deserves an equal opportunity to experience "salvation" for the sole reason that they didn't ask to be here.


RE: your idea that we aren't alone in the universe. I agree with KFC, We can't know. So, why bother putting that unknown context into the real one of living one's life here on earth?

everywhere deserves an equal opportunity to experience "salvation" for the sole reason that they didn't ask to be here.


Ock, everyone HAS an equal opportunity to experience eternal salvation.

God made everyone and loves everyone equally. Strange though it may sound, He's given everyone the means to attain salvation. Religion in man may be natural or supernatural. It may be personal or social or both. The Natural or Moral law was written on our heart. Man may be conscious of the existence of God, feel his responsibility to God, be just and loving to his fellow man, without ever leaving the jungle, so to speak. That is natural religion. It is obeying the things the conscience of man tells him are right and wrong.

That's why the Church could say, "GOd, the beginning and end of all, can be known with certainity from the works of Creation by the natural light of human reason.

on Sep 05, 2007
Jesus just said, follow me.


Quite true. And He established a Church to teach without error how to follow Him..and from His Chruch came the Good Book.
on Sep 05, 2007
OCK POSTS:
I don't believe salvation requires a specific dogma.


KFC POSTS:
me either. Not dogma, only belief.

I think many times we tend to go overboard with all sorts of creeds and pillars and such and we end up too "churchy". Jesus just said, follow me.

I get angry sometimes with "religion" because I too think people are NOT being told the truth. Are you being taught fairy tales or the truth of God?


ock posts:
I have often believed that if there really is a Satan, then organized religion is the clearest proof of him.


You two, very interesting indeed.

There is a big difference between revealed religion and false religion and irreligion.


I've already mentioned natural religion. Supernatural religion of the highest order, religion proclaimed by God is called revealed religion. It's organic and both physical and social.

It's based upon defined principles that are ever in harmony with right reason. There are many organized religions in the world, but only one of them can be the true, organic Divinely instituted religion. God, the Author of religion, is Truth, and Truth in one and indivisible. That organic religion when contrasted with hundreds of other religions or sects, is not a mere organization, but rather a living, indestructible, Spiritual Organism, the Body of Christ. 1Cor.12:27.

Religion, being the principle that binds man to God embodies the obligation to worship God as God commands to be worshipped, if we know that He has so commanded. Catholics, being assured of the Divine authenticity of their religion, submit their wills to the will of God by hearing the Chruch. St.Matt. 18:17 that the Son of God established over 21 centuries ago. The Chruch "against which the gates of Hell (have not prevailed, and) shall not prevail" St.Matt. 16:18.

Revealed religion elevates the soul, by cultivating his conscience which is that inward sense that enables him properly to distinguish good from evil, right from wrong, and prompts obedience.

Religion is a friendship founded upon man's obligation to love his neighbor for the love of God. Simply put, what friendship is between man and man, religion is between man and God, an unseen though real freindship which outwardly manifests itself in human acts, in unselfish service.

Religion is the basis of individual and social morality, therefore domestic infelicity, intemperance, economic injustice, dishonesty, crime, etc. increase to the degree that man departs from its precepts.

Religion strengthens the will of man and thus enables him tofight the moral battles of life, and to win.

The Catholic Church's sole purpose is to help guide mankind to eternal salvation.
on Sep 05, 2007
If Catholics are the Church, why do they go to Mass while the rest of us go to Church? Eh? Answer me that!
on Sep 05, 2007
With regards to Lula, this is a one sided converstion. I feel quite sure that there were plenty of Lulapilgrims damning Galileo to house arrest for suggesting the world was round, as well. The catholic church does not have the best reputation for calling the correct shots. So should I, the average Joe, suddenly put all history of Divine LACK of authenticty behind me and listen if you or other Catholics say "Yeah, but that was then and this is now, and we have it all figured out now?"

Western Christian biblical references "Psalm 93:1", "Psalm 96:10", and "Chronicles 16:30" include text stating that "the world is firmly established, it cannot be moved." In the same tradition, "Psalm 104:5" says, "[the LORD] set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved." Further, "Ecclesiastes 1:5" states that "the sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises."

Galileo defended heliocentrism, and claimed it was not contrary to those Scripture passages. He took Augustine's position on Scripture: not to take every passage literally, particularly when the scripture in question is a book of poetry and songs, not a book of instructions or history. The writers of the Scripture wrote from the perspective of the terrestrial world, and from that vantage point the sun does rise and set. In fact, it is the earth's rotation which gives the impression of the sun in motion across the sky.

By 1616 the attacks on Galileo had reached a head, and he went to Rome to try to persuade the Church authorities not to ban his ideas. In the end, Cardinal Bellarmine, acting on directives from the Inquisition, delivered him an order not to "hold or defend" the idea that the Earth moves and the Sun stands still at the centre. The decree did not prevent Galileo from discussing heliocentrism hypothetically. For the next several years Galileo stayed well away from the controversy. He revived his project of writing a book on the subject, encouraged by the election of Cardinal Barberini as Pope Urban VIII in 1623. Barberini was a friend and admirer of Galileo, and had opposed the condemnation of Galileo in 1616. The book, Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, was published in 1632, with formal authorization from the Inquisition and papal permission.

Pope Urban VIII personally asked Galileo to give arguments for and against heliocentrism in the book, and to be careful not to advocate heliocentrism. He made another request, that his own views on the matter be included in Galileo's book. Only the latter of those requests was fulfilled by Galileo. Whether unknowingly or deliberate, Simplicius, the defender of the Aristotelian Geocentric view in Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, was often caught in his own errors and sometimes came across as a fool. This fact made Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems appear as an advocacy book; an attack on Aristotelian geocentrism and defense of the Copernican theory. To add insult to injury, Galileo put the words of Pope Urban VIII into the mouth of Simplicius. Most historians agree Galileo did not act out of malice and felt blindsided by the reaction to his book. However, the Pope did not take the public ridicule lightly, nor the blatant bias. Galileo had alienated one of his biggest and most powerful supporters, the Pope, and was called to Rome to explain himself.

With the loss of many of his defenders in Rome because of Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, Galileo was ordered to stand trial on suspicion of heresy in 1633. The sentence of the Inquisition was in three essential parts:

* Galileo was required to recant his heliocentric ideas; the idea that the Sun is stationary was condemned as "formally heretical." However, while there is no doubt that Pope Urban VIII and the vast majority of Church officials did not believe in heliocentrism, Catholic doctrine is defined by the pope when he speaks ex cathedra (from the Chair of Saint Peter) in matters of faith and morals. While Church officials did condemn Galileo, heliocentrism was never formally or officially condemned by the Catholic Church, except insofar as it held (for instance, in the formal condemnation of Galileo) that "The proposition that the sun is in the center of the world and immovable from its place is absurd, philosophically false, and formally heretical; because it is expressly contrary to Holy Scriptures", and the converse as to the Sun's not revolving around the Earth.[30]
* He was ordered imprisoned; the sentence was later commuted to house arrest.
* His offending Dialogue was banned; and in an action not announced at the trial, publication of any of his works was forbidden, including any he might write in the future.[31]

Tomb of Galileo Galilei, Santa Croce
Tomb of Galileo Galilei, Santa Croce

After a period with the friendly Ascanio Piccolomini (the Archbishop of Siena), Galileo was allowed to return to his villa at Arcetri near Florence, where he spent the remainder of his life under house arrest, going blind and dying from natural causes on January 8, 1642. It was while Galileo was under house arrest when he dedicated his time to one of his finest works, Two New Sciences. Here he summarized work he had done some forty years earlier, on the two sciences now called kinematics and strength of materials. This book has received high praise from both Sir Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein. As a result of this work, Galileo is often called, the "father of modern physics".

Galileo was reburied on sacred ground at Santa Croce in 1737. He was formally rehabilitated in 1741, when Pope Benedict XIV authorized the publication of Galileo's complete scientific works (a censored edition had been published in 1718), and in 1758 the general prohibition against heliocentrism was removed from the Index Librorum Prohibitorum. On 31 October 1992, Pope John Paul II expressed regret for how the Galileo affair was handled, as the result of a study conducted by the Pontifical Council for Culture.[32]

Galileo Galilei was opposed greatly by the Protestant reformers including Martin Luther, John Calvin and Philip Melanchthon, all of whom at one point condemned heliocentrism.


Wiki on Galileo

Where there's smoke, there's fire. I thought fire was what we're supposed to avoid?
on Sep 05, 2007
Will you read and discuss "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" by Julian Jaynes? I can almost assure you you WON'T find it at Walmart, though. It's not an anti-Christian book. I have no use in that kind of discussion. I'm not an atheist or a Dawkins fan or anything like that, and wouldn't be so base as to just - for each pro-Christian book you throw at me, to throw an equally anti-Christian book at you. Not at all. Jaynes' book is just another theory on Consciousness that he devolped while working with epileptics.


Now this is interesting to me Ock. I'll take your word for it that it's not anti-Christian because I'm not interested in Christian bashing books. You read one, they're all are the same. But this does peak my interest. My son is working on his Ph.D in Neuro Science (Science of the brain) and epilepsy is his interest. He's actually trying to work on a cure for this. I'll ask him first if he's heard this book/author.


I didn't know you were in Italy. So yes, get Case For Christ and we'll discuss. Every chapter starts with a murder and how a murder is investigated. These murders were/are well known and very well documented. Probably murders he covered while working for the Chicago Tribune He does make you think (using that ol' brain) so I think you'll really like it. Not preachy at all either.

I have no doubt that the Bible is well written to support itself. This could be for two reasons. It's either exactly what you say it is, or it's psychologically well crafted by men


exactly and that's for you to find out. I found out by reading it/studying it that there's no way mere men wrote this group of books bound together as one. No way. But I can tell you this till I'm blue in the face, it's really gotta be you who figures this out, but it's only by the spirit of God this will happen. Until then, the bible makes no sense.

But there is some of it that reek of "human control" or "people management," if you will, by the social construct that were the priests of the day. That's the part I do not trust.


me either. I grew up Catholic Ock. It sounds like you may have too? I'm no longer Catholic (to Lula's dismay) but I too have distrust of many organized religions as a result of what I've seen over the years.

We must not let Satan throw obstacles in our way to make us turn away from God. We must go around those obstacles and continue our way to the cross.






on Sep 05, 2007
If Catholics are the Church, why do they go to Mass while the rest of us go to Church? Eh? Answer me that!


I can tell you why Catholics go to Mass, Jythier.

But I don't know you'll have to ask whomever "the rest of us" is why they go to Church and not to Mass.
on Sep 05, 2007
Have to go around that giant roadblock called 'religion' before you can start following Christ... it gets in the way of faith.
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