Give Up Your Faith or Your Life?
Published on August 19, 2007 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Religion
Moving right along in Revelation 6 as we read about the 5th seal, we look at v9-11 to read:

9When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Here we see the persecution of the saints.

In the January 07 USA Today a poll was taken to reveal that 17% are persecuted for their religious beliefs while 14% are persecuted for their sexual identity. Interesting, given the high volume of press coverage given to those persecuted for sexual identity in comparison to those persecuted for religious beliefs.

Also in the current news are those being held in Korea. These are Christians being held with at least two having been killed already. Persecution continues today as it has for years, and it's only going to escalate. Just mention the name of Jesus among the secular and you get a very strong sense you've said something wrong. It's ok to use "God" but not the name of Jesus Christ.

For now Christians are tolerated at best, but in the future all nations will encourage persecution as the powers of hell will come fully against all believers. The martyrs seen here in this passage were killed for their worship of Jesus.

The opening of this 5th seal brings us to the middle of Daniel's 70th week. The timeline would look something like this:


Beginning............................Middle...................................End.

l______________________l__________________ l
1,2,3,4........................................5

Birth Pangs.....................Persecution


The Anti Christ is going to lead this persecution unlike any other time in history. The breaking of this seal removes whatever is restraining him now from unleashing total persecution against the world and Christ. "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way." 2 Thess 2:7

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thess 2:4

He now will be free to persecute Christians to the fullest extent. The abomination of desolation will now be fully realized here at this time when the Anti-Christ sits on the newly built Jewish Temple and declares himself God as he schemes, plots and seeks the death of those whose allegiance is to Jesus, the one he abhors. The penalty for not worshipping the AC will be death.

As his demand of worship intensifies so too will the persecution increase. Whether or not you believe in the pre-trib or pre-wrath rapture all believe that these martyrs do die for God.

Now to keep along with Matthew as we've done, we see this played out using verses 9-22 in his gospel. This section in Matthew, as here in Revelation, is after the first 4 seals were broken.

John sees the slain "sphazo" which means to butcher, slaughter (sacrifice) to; to maim (violently); kill, slay. This may be done to mimic the OT sacrifices as seen in Leviticus 4. John sees them under the altar as if they are sacrificed or paying the ultimate price with their lives. Paul mentioned in Philippians that he would be willing to pour himself out as a drink offering for God. He too would be martyred under the hand of Nero proving he literally meant what he wrote. He loved Jesus that much.

Two reasons are given here for the deaths of these martyrs. The first would be for the Word of God. Jesus was called the Word of God by John in his gospel. Maybe these martyrs were proclaiming just these last day events much like I am doing here.

The other reason given for their untimely deaths is for a testimony. Perhaps it was their personal witness. Perhaps they died for the Word of God and the call for all to repentence.

We see here their cry is passionate. We get the sense of urgency in their cries. They will be avenged with the next seal as we will see soon. As time marches on many more martyrs will join them. Their cry is not for themselves so much as it is for God to be exalted. They see and know that Satan himself is being exalted and they wish, as we all do, that God will be the one who is exalted by all.

We ask, "how long will you allow sin to rule on the earth?" During this time many will turn to Him waiting for His justice to finally be executed. To avenge is "ekdikeo" and means punishment and retribution.

God is holy and his holiness demands justice. They cry out for holy and truth here. Their cry is not for themselves but for God.

Those who dwell on the earth describes unbelievers. They are earth dwellers who settle down and remain. This world is their home as they have made it their home. We, as Christians, are foreigners and should be treated as such. We should not be comfortable here.

Stephen, the first martyr, before he died cried out for mercy and grace for those who were about to kill him. We are now in the age of God's mercy and grace, but a time will come when judgment begins. We read in Luke 18:7-8a:

And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? “I tell you that He will avenge them speedily

The white robe would symbolize the righteousness of Christ. They can now rest in Him. Their job on earth is finished. They can enjoy heaven and rest in God's timing. Man is moving ahead for a little while longer. God has a certain time limit. He knows the number of martyrs that will die and when finished the next seal will bring about His vengeance. It's not long now he says.

Persecutiion Has a Present Purpose

My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

Testing increases our faith. Peter says this testing molds us and builds us up as Christians. He said in 4:12:

Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy. If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people’s matters. Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter.

Persecution Has a Future Purpose

The sifting of tares and wheat purifies God's believers. A non-believer will not be persecuted for the name of Christ. The church is filled with both tares and wheat. True believers will endure to the end but the non-believers will not be able to stand the heat.. Purging will occur. We read in 2 Thess 2:3:

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition

So a falling away will come first. How? Persecution. Those willing to die for God are the true believers. The rest will leave. "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us". 1 John 2:19

If persecution happened in your church, how many would stick around? What would you do? Would you be willing to die? Persecution is to be expected. Do you give up your faith or do you give up your life? Persecution is to be expected.

Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also." John 15:20

Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. Matt 16:24

Are you willing to set yourself aside? Are you willing to deny self? For the sake of Christ? Are you being persecuted? Or, are you ashamed of the name of Jesus? The two are related. We may need to be more bold in our witness. As we do so, expect persecution.

















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Comments (Page 2)
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on Aug 21, 2007
I seem to follow many of the Church Doctors interpretation. To me, the Apocalypse is a theological vision of the entire panorama of history. It underlines its religious dimension.


who are these Church Doctors? Also something to keep in mind....sometimes you can apply things to a certain topic but in reality there's only one interpretation. So while many applications can be made only one interpretation is correct. It's not mine or anyone else's as Peter spoke...rather it's scripture's.

but for him these last times have already begun. They began with the entry of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God made man into the world.


well I would agree with that Lula. I believe we've been living in the end times since the death of Christ...but these days we're discussing is the "very" end of the age as the disciples asked in Matthew 24. It's also called the Day of God's Wrath. The Day of Jacob's Trouble, The Day of the Lord, Judgment Day, etc.

Anyway, just thought I'd throw this in to soothe my "duh" moment embarrasment.


hahah that's ok.....we all have our moments don't we?

I once interpretted Revelation to be applicable to everyone's life - ie, the last days of a person.


hahahah never heard this one Jythier. You've been kind of quiet over there....not quite sure what you believe now. but I take it you've moved on from that huh?

on Aug 21, 2007
who are these Church Doctors?


They are Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Tertullian, St.Thomas Aquinas, (my favorite), Barnabas, and Athanasius.

on Aug 23, 2007
looking at the Throne of God and round the Throne, "were 24 thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four ancients (elders) clad in white garments with golden crowns upon their heads."


every ancient had 24 virgins;
every virgin had 24 cats.

how many were going to st yves?
on Aug 23, 2007

every ancient had 24 virgins;
every virgin had 24 cats.

how many were going to st yves?


True, but you're talkin' mythical fairytales and we're talkin' Sacred Scripture. Big difference at least to us.
on Aug 23, 2007
"but I take it you've moved on from that huh?"

Yeah, I read Revelations again and noted all the time sensitive things... the world war... etc.
on Aug 29, 2007
Sorry it took me a while to get back to this. We went on vacation, and then I forgot about this thread.

I'm sorry to hear that Ock. If that's the case, why are you here then?


Because as you later stated, I am a seeker, and I don't rule out getting information from anywhere - what true seeker would and expect to still keep their Seeker Membership Card™?

You quoted that I found revelations interesting, and that so did you, but you never answered any of my questions on it. So, here they are again.

On another note, I still find revelations interesting. Mainly because it continually references objects. Like white robes and seals and such. I mean no disrespect, but my mind is curious. Why would these people need robes? What is a seal? A seal on a scroll? What scroll? Where? Does God exist in a physical part of the universe somewhere surrounded by actual rolled up parchment with seals waiting to be broken?


You say if you don't know, you'll say so, but in the case of these questions, you didn't. Ok...I can wait for either or. You know and put up some answers or you don't and say so.

on Aug 29, 2007
"I don't rule out getting information from anywhere - what true seeker would and expect to still keep their Seeker Membership Card™?"

Good use of the ™.

But, I'm pretty sure you said that you didn't rely on other people for information - perhaps it may be inaccurate! I thought a true seeker only relied on himself, and his own thoughts.
on Aug 29, 2007
On another note, I still find revelations interesting. Mainly because it continually references objects. Like white robes and seals and such. I mean no disrespect, but my mind is curious. Why would these people need robes? What is a seal? A seal on a scroll? What scroll? Where? Does God exist in a physical part of the universe somewhere surrounded by actual rolled up parchment with seals waiting to be broken?


Hi Ock,
If you care to read some of KFC's previous Revelation articles, you'll find that most of these questions of yours are answered sometimes twice and thrice times over! I cut and pasted this one on the scroll from Rev. 5:1-7, Who is Worthy?

Apoc. 5:1 "And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals."

My notes call Apoc. 5:1-14 “the Vision of the Transfer of Power to the Lamb” and the scroll that “no one in Heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open” is the central unifying element of the entire first vision.

Right after giving us an almost unapproachable picture of the heavenly Throne Room, St.John, as you say, turns to the One on the Throne holding the scroll that evidently has things written on it front and back and has 7 seals.

The scroll is a piece of writing, so-called episthograph, a rolled up parchment or papyrus strip. The fact that it is written on both sides is a sign of fullness of content or wholeness Ezek. 2:9 and shows its richness. That there are seven seals stresses the hidden nature of the scroll’s contents.

Many agree with Origen who wrote that the scroll is the Old Testament which in its entirety points to Christ and His Kingdom whose true nature remains shrouded in mystery until the seals are broken. What was hidden in the OT was revealed in the Messiah. In any event the scroll which contains world history in its entire evolution as God’s salvation history is the property of the sovereign Lord but He intends giving it to someone else.

Everything in the picture now evolves around this scroll (or Book) and Him who is receiving it and will be made known and at the same time realized by Him who receives it.

The image of the scroll containing God’s hidden plans for mankind was used before by the prophet Daniel and also Isaias 29:11 who refers to a prophecy remaining sealed until the end of time. St.John uses the image to make the point that the End Time, the Last Days, have already begun with Christ so now he can reveal God’s plans.

It is stressed that absolutely no one, no science or ethos is able to look into the secret plan of God, even less realize it. St.John and everyone in fact, would have to know something of what is written on the scroll for if he knows God’s plans about the past, present and future, he will be able to console effectively and encourage loyalty to the anxious and distressed Church. Yet, no one is able to open the scroll and this is why he weeps.

on Aug 29, 2007
Why would these people need robes?


same thing i've been wondering (also the reason for my corruptive allusion to all those wives, cats, kits, etc. enroute to wherever in reply #18).

what need do spirits have for thrones, gold, robes or similar material goods?
on Aug 29, 2007
On another note, I still find revelations interesting. Mainly because it continually references objects. Like white robes and seals and such. I mean no disrespect, but my mind is curious. Why would these people need robes? What is a seal? A seal on a scroll? What scroll? Where? Does God exist in a physical part of the universe somewhere surrounded by actual rolled up parchment with seals waiting to be broken?


I think Lula is right here. You may want to go back and read when I first mentioned scrolls/seals in Chap 5. Remember this is a continued series. See if that helps. I take this literally. If it makes sense, seek no other sense. I believe these seals are unbroken waiting to be broken, yes. God is spirit. Heaven is his throne, earth is his footstool.

Why do they need white robes? God is comforting them here as he gives them these white robes. He's telling them they are found worthy to wear them, but it's not their righteousness that God sees but their righteousness that is found in Christ. When God looks at us, does he see his Son in us? There's significance with the white robes that run deeper than just a white covering. White as you know stands for purity. If you go back to Revelation 3:4-5 maybe this will help:

"Thou has a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white for they are worthy. He that overcomes the same shall be clothed in white rainment and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life but I will confess his name before my father and before his angels."

When we come to Christ, we too are made pure spiritually (washed in the blood of the lamb), a new creature. Our old life is gone, we are now new creatures in Christ said Paul, resurrected to a new life, leaving the old life behind. An example of this would be Jesus when he rose from the dead. If you look carefully at John 20 you'd see something interesting: Look at v4-5, 6, 7.

"So they ran both together and the other disciple did outrun Peter and came first to the sepulchre. And he stooping down and looking in saw the linen clothes lying...

"Then came Simon Peter following him and went into the sepulchre and saw the linen clothes lie.

"And the napkin, that was about his head not lying with the linen clothes but wrapped together in a place by itself."

Whenever anything is mentioned so many times like this it gives emphasis to the subject matter. God is telling us something here. What?

These clothes left behind belong to the old world. He left them behind. He had no use for them anymore.








on Aug 30, 2007
this:

God is comforting them here as he gives them these white robes. He's telling them they are found worthy to wear them,


is in clear disagreement with this:

God is telling us something here. What?

These clothes left behind belong to the old world. He left them behind. He had no use for them anymore


and vice-versa.
on Aug 30, 2007
"Then came Simon Peter following him and went into the sepulchre and saw the linen clothes lie.

"And the napkin, that was about his head not lying with the linen clothes but wrapped together in a place by itself."

Whenever anything is mentioned so many times like this it gives emphasis to the subject matter. God is telling us something here. What?

These clothes left behind belong to the old world. He left them behind. He had no use for them anymore.


Many believe this burial piece of linen is the famous relic , the "Shroud of Turin", that seems to have real blood and bears the image of someOne.

on Aug 30, 2007
Why would these people need robes?


same thing i've been wondering
what need do spirits have for thrones, gold, robes or similar material goods?


In the Apocalypse, the visions are laden with symbolism which is at the same time the essence of apocalyptic language. In most cases these things stand for something that St.John wants to get the reader to understand.

Somtimes, as we'll see later, the symbols were kind of like secret codes becasue he wrote the Book of Revelation during a time of intense persecution.

The 24 who were seated around the GOd's Throne wore white garments which to some indicates that they have achieved leverlasting salvation (3:5) and the golden crowns stand for the reward they have earned (2:10). Or they could stand for their prminence among among the Christians who have been promised that if they come out victorious, if they fight the good fight and remain faithful, they too will sit near Christ's Throne 3:21.

on Aug 30, 2007
Many believe this burial piece of linen is the famous relic , the "Shroud of Turin", that seems to have real blood and bears the image of someOne.


Many also believe it's Leonardo da Vinci in a photographic experiment. But for some really weird reason, it's not allowed to be examined. Strano.

I take this literally. If it makes sense, seek no other sense. I believe these seals are unbroken waiting to be broken, yes. God is spirit. Heaven is his throne, earth is his footstool.


And he's got a trunk full of white robes and some scrolls with seals that will be broken. Okie doke. Got it.

Many agree with Origen who wrote that the scroll is the Old Testament


Citation, please. Not of those agreeing, but where Origen says this. I take it you have an English language translation of Hexapla lying around somewhere? Or at least what's left of it since most of it was destroyed? Or was it in one of the other works?

on Aug 30, 2007
In the Apocalypse, the visions are laden with symbolism which is at the same time the essence of apocalyptic language. In most cases these things stand for something that St.John wants to get the reader to understand.


C'mon. If you want someone to understand something, do you type it like that?

You know, I went back and read both of those Chapter 5 posts, and all the responses. There isn't anything in there where anyone explained, once, twice, or a gazillion times answers to the questions I asked.

I did notice one thing of interest, though. Lulapilgrim telling KFC that if she saw some hint of a secret rapture in there, it's because she wanted to.

The more I read you guys talking back and forth, the more it looks like you're both doing exactly that; reading into them exactly what you want to see.

And KFC, if you really are taking these things literally, then why do you add your interpretations...example:

The white robe would symbolize the righteousness of Christ.


No..."literally," a white robe is a white robe. It symbolizes...a white robe.

Jythier:
But, I'm pretty sure you said that you didn't rely on other people for information - perhaps it may be inaccurate! I thought a true seeker only relied on himself, and his own thoughts.


A true seeker takes all accounts of everything from everywhere and then uses his/her own mind to synthesize them into something which makes sense. And I see that these two, Lula and KFC, are trying to do that. But I'm looking hard, and I see nothing to synthesize. You never know when someone is going to say something that YOU with YOUR thoughts can synthesize - unless you just slap at your ears screaming La La La La at the top of your lungs.

What thoughts would you have if you had absolutely NO sensation from birth? Answer: None. Input from eye, nose, skin, tongue, ears - synthesized by the brain into thought is required to experience existence.

C'mon J. You can jab at me better than this. Don't make the mistake of thinking me a fool. You know I'm not, and throwing words in my face just makes you look like one. Disappointing.
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