if you're referring to the group abducted by the taliban, they're presumably heing held in afghanistan.

Of interest to me is that one of the definitions of "persecute" is "to annoy or bother consistently." That's pretty broad and open to interpretation. My comments to you now, and in the past, may have annoyed or bothered you. Have I persecuted you? Your lack of individual thought, and by that, I mean thought that is generated from within, without reference to anything except your own material, annoys and bothers me - quite consistently. Have you persecuted me? Oh please.

In a grander sense, persecution means, basically, to make someone's life a living hell because of what they believe in. Including death. But persecution has been practiced by the Christian church for...*looks at watch*...pretty close to forever. Does being "right" make it okie dokie to persecute? Or is one of those white robes set aside for Galileo and Copernicus?

On another note, I still find revelations interesting. Mainly because it continually references objects. Like white robes and seals and such. I mean no disrespect, but my mind is curious. Why would these people need robes? What is a seal? A seal on a scroll? What scroll? Where? Does God exist in a physical part of the universe somewhere surrounded by actual rolled up parchment with seals waiting to be broken? Something about that seems odd, but I admit, the mind of ANY God, regardless of which is chosen, is beyond me to understand.

Is your fascination with revelations a result of being way past ready to see everyone punished that doesn't measure up? I know you'll say it's because you're ready to see Jesus come back and make everything okie dokey, especially since you're likely sure you've got a nice house waiting for you in heaven, and THAT house won't have pesky neighbors, thieves, and whores nearby. Nor OckhamsRazors that pester you on your blogs, for that matter, because I'm also sure you're quite convinced that I'm not one of the Most Chosen by his majesty.

When you read the things I say, you might be offended. And truthfully, I don't intend to offend - for the record. I don't believe anything you say. But I don't DISbelieve anything at all, to include what you say. I simply don't know, which I call being honest with myself. I'm just intently curious, from a psychological standpoint, about the answer to all of the questions I've asked, and many more besides. I hope you receive it that way.

After the breaking of the fifth seal, the Throne room is changed into a celestial temple with an altar. Here, St.John sees all who gave their lives for the Lord God. The fifth seal reveals all the OLd Testament marytrs from Abel to Zecharias St. Matt. 23:35-37; Heb. 11:35-40. and the Christian marytrs of all eras. St.John sees them under the altar.

There souls are awaiting the final resurrection, but why are they under the altar in Heaven? What does this signify? This is at first a reflection of the OLd Covenant Temple. The heavenly altar was like the altar where the burnt-offerings of animal victims were offered to God and their blood flowed under the altar. The OT taught that the life of a creature was in its blood. Lev.17:11. St.John sees the New Covenant sacrifices, the Christian marytrs under the heavenly altar becasue they had been slain for God's word and for the witness they had borne. They were very close to God and their death had been a most acceptable offering to Him. Phil.2:17; 2Tim 4:6.

Some of these marytrs were killed during the intense persecution of the Sanhedrin and Nero, some of them lion bait for entertainment in the Coliseum. But from a heavenly perspective their earthly loss of life was a Christian sacrifice. In reality, their lives were not lost, but preserved under the altar in Heaven. Their sacrifice had eternal significance in GOd's heavenly Kingdom.

The presence of the marytrs in Heaven shows that when man dies his soul receives its reward or punishment immediately. GOd's judgment on each soul begins to take effect the moment he dies, although it is not until the resurrection of all the dead that it will have its full effect, on body as well as soul.

As a side note, many of the old Catholic cathedrals have the marytrs bodies buried under their altars.

if you're referring to the group abducted by the taliban, they're presumably heing held in afghanistan.

Yes, sorry about that. I meant abducted from Korea. Thanks for clearing that up. I heard a more recent report that a couple of Christians including one 31 year old woman has been abducted from Germany as well. Not sure of all the details yet tho.

My comments to you now, and in the past, may have annoyed or bothered you. Have I persecuted you?

you have said nothing that has bothered or annoyed me that I know of.....yet anyways. So the answer is no.

Your lack of individual thought, and by that, I mean thought that is generated from within, without reference to anything except your own material, annoys and bothers me - quite consistently.

I'm sorry to hear that Ock. If that's the case, why are you here then? I do use individual thought here and there as I do this series but do admit I use other parts of the same book to enlighten the passage we're currently reading. I believe scripture interprets scripture. It's like doing a puzzle. You have to leave the main picture to find the piece that fits quite nicely in the section you're working on.

On another note, I still find revelations interesting.

Me too. That's why I'm doing this. Not only for myself but for any that care to join me. I have had some ask me to do this and since the Pastor is preaching on this every week, I used this time and opportunity to weekly put in a section at a time.

Nor OckhamsRazors that pester you on your blogs, for that matter, because I'm also sure you're quite convinced that I'm not one of the Most Chosen by his majesty.

you can by pesky. By all means. Just don't get vulgar and insulting and we'll do fine. I have no idea if God has chosen you or not. Only you and He knows the answer to this question. I can only go by the fruit I see on the tree. I can inspect fruit, but I can't inspect hearts. That's God's job.

But persecution has been practiced by the Christian church for...*looks at watch*...pretty close to forever. Does being "right" make it okie dokie to persecute?

I question how "Christian" these persecutors were........fruit again. It doesn't mesh with scripture. The fruit of the spirit is NOT persecution. So the answer is NO it's never ok to persecute. Even the devil we are told to "flee from." Scripture is also quite clear we are NOT to take vengeance on anybody. Again, that's God's job. Not ours.

I don't intend to offend - for the record. I don't believe anything you say. But I don't DISbelieve anything at all, to include what you say. I simply don't know, which I call being honest with myself. I'm just intently curious, from a psychological standpoint, about the answer to all of the questions I've asked, and many more besides. I hope you receive it that way.

I'll just consider you a seeker and leave it at that. This whole series is to inform and educate. I'm not trying to indoctrinate or persuade any to come to Christ as I know that's the Holy Spirit's job, not mine. I believe all I can do is "tell" and leave it at that. Do what you want with it. I just want to logically go thru Revelation using history, prophecy, current events and other scriptures as needed to shed light on this most interesting book.

If you have questions, Ock. I don't mind answering. If I don't know, I'll say so.

Lula,

What you're saying is not making sense logically to me. It's not about martyrs all thru the centuries. Revelation is telling us a story of the end of the world in sequential order. These martyrs are end- time tribulation martyrs. Christ when he spoke of this in Matthew 24 was telling his disciples this would happen in answer to their questions about the end of times. These martyrs are coming after the first four seals. Logically speaking this fifth seal is the result of what is happening right during this period of time. We see no mention of all these OT and other martyrs thru the years.

The presence of the marytrs in Heaven shows that when man dies his soul receives its reward or punishment immediately.

Now I agree here with this but is this CC doctrine?

As a side note, many of the old Catholic cathedrals have the marytrs bodies buried under their altars.

Why is that?

"revenge our blood", The martyrs, all of whom are saints, btw, ask this not out of hatred for their enemies and persecutors, but out of zeal for the glory of God, and a desire that the Lord would accelerate the general judgment and the complete beatitude of all His elect.

St.Thomas Aquinas in his Summa theologiae said, "This prayer of the martyrs is nothing other than their desire to obtain resurrection of the body and to share in the inheritance of those who will be saved, and their recognition of God's justice in punishing evildoers."

These martyrs cry out to God for justice against their persecutors. Our Lord refers to it in the Gospel of St.Luke 18:7 and it echoes in the lament raised at Abel's death in Genesis 4:10. Here we see than even from a perspective in Heaven, evil should be punished.





Tradition regards Stephen as the first Christian martyr. Stephen address the Sanhedrin and after giving them a summary of the history of Israel, he preaches Christ and just as they rebelled against Moses who had a mission from God, they rejected Stephen and the Gospel. For that he was stoned to death.

Martyrdom is a form of witness to the faith. It's a supreme act for the love of Christ, but to the world it makes no sense. It's an expression of humility because a marytr doesn't act out of bravado or overwheening self confidence, but God's grace gives him the strength he needs. Martyrdom is something which shows Christians what human nature can rise to if God gives it strength and it establishes a standard both real and symbolic for the behavior of every disciple of Christ.

St.Leo says, "Since all the virtues and the perfections of all righteousness are born of love of God and one's neighbor, in no one is this love more worthily found than in the blessed martyrs, who are nearest to our Lord in terms of imitation of both His charity and His Passion."




The example of the blessed martyrs has been of great help for the
instruction of the people of God. Although there are heroic ways of imitating and following our Lord which do not involve bloodshed and death, all Christians should realize that confession of the faith is not a thing of the past and is necessary.

Some Christians have been called from the beginning to give this greatest testimony of love to all, especially to persecutors. It is the highest gift and supreme test of love. Although it is given to a few, all must be prepared to confess Christ before men and to follow Him along the way of the Cross amidst the persecutions which the Church never lacks.

What the martyrs say may seem at odds with Christ's prayer on the Cross, St.Luke 23:24, and Stephen's on the eve of his martyrdom Acts. 7:60, but there is really no contradiction.

Like Christ, Stephen dies commending his soul to God and praying for the persecutors. At this point, St. Luke brings in Saul, who cooperates in the persecution by having Stephen's clothes laid at his feet. Saul will soon experience the fruits of Stephen's intercession. Of this, in one of his Sermons 315,7, St.Augustine wrote, "If Stephen had not prayed to God, the Church would not have had Paul." Stephen has died, but his example and teaching continue to speak across the world. He's speaking to us now.

"How long" --------To their question, they receive a twofold answer.

The first concerns themselves and is realized in a symbolic action of giving every one of them a white robe, which means they already receive a share in the glory of the Victor at Almighty God's Throne.

After that they are told to be patient; it will "be a little longer". Regarding the need for their persecuted brothers on earth, they are told that the number of martyrs determined beforehand is not yet complete. The plan of Eternal Wisdom, Justice and Goodness must first be followed to the end, then the moment will come which the Chruch with her martyrs hopes and longs for. The martyrdom of the faithful helps to complete the Church and therefore hastens the hour of the world's consummation.

As long as the Church exists on earth, it's of the Church's essence that her continued existence is put into question. As a whole, the Church knows to be neither dependent on the favor of the world, nor mortally threatened by the world's rejection. Like the Psalmist, she staunchly professes her confidence in the Sovereign Lord: "my times are in thy hand" Ps.31 (30): 16, St. Luke 18:5.

Good stuff Lula.

Of this, in one of his Sermons 315,7, St.Augustine wrote, "If Stephen had not prayed to God, the Church would not have had Paul."

There's no doubt that the sermon and the death of Stephen was used by God to awaken Paul's spirit. The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the faith. The word of God will not go out void.

LULA POSTS:

KFC posts:



I understand what you are saying and don't necessarily disagree. It's just that I interpret this in its fullness, in the whole, sorta like a panoramic vision; while you seem to interpret it rather myopically sorta like tunnel vision that's only focused on the future.


KFC, think of what St.John has already seen in the first part of this vision. In 4:2-4, he's in Heaven looking at the Throne of God and round the Throne, "were 24 thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four ancients (elders) clad in white garments with golden crowns upon their heads."

Now, these 24 with their white robes and crowns are martyrs, right? Therefore couldn't these be the Old Testament martyrs who died for bringing God's word to mankind?

Amen.

Well, I'd say St.John's vision is written in partly sequential and partly chronological fashion.

One reason is because throughout the Apocalypse (the Book of Revelation), St.John moves back and forth between the earth and Heaven.


It starts with St.John on earth when his apocalyptic vision begins "on the Lord's Day". Then he's told to "come up here" to Heaven. Later, he's carried back to earth into a "wilderness".

Also, St.John follows Daniel rather closely and Daniel's apocolyptic visions aren't necessarily in chronological order and sometimes they overlap.

These visions St.John is given are meant for the benefit of the whole Church, then and future, as can be seen from the fact that he's told to write down what he sees. It's connected with contemporary events of his day and with the future. We've seen that some of the prophecies have multiple fulfillments.

To me, the immediate context of the vision is the salvation of the churches mentioned and the glory of Christ who is caring for them.

The future context of the vision has to do with the afflictions the Church must undergo and the full establishment of Christ's kingdom: His Second Coming will mean definitive victory over the powers of evil. Ch. 4-22.

I interpret this in its fullness, in the whole, sorta like a panoramic vision; while you seem to interpret it rather myopically sorta like tunnel vision that's only focused on the future.

ok this is a "duh" moment Lula. I have to say this loud...so excuse me.....WHAT DO YOU THINK REVELATION IS?

Now, these 24 with their white robes and crowns are martyrs, right? Therefore couldn't these be the Old Testament martyrs who died for bringing God's word to mankind?

........you've got kind of a myopic view here now don't you Lula? .

Actually no, most don't associate these 24 elders as martyrs. Doesn't mean they might not be, it's just not usually put together. Like I said when this first came up we don't know exactly who these elders are. We can maybe think they represent the 12 Tribes of Israel (Jews) and the 12 Apostles (Church) but can't be dogmatic. If so, we do know that John at the very least did not die a martyr's death.

The White Robes symoblize us as clean and purified and wrapped in the righteousness of Christ. We are not righteous by ourselves nor can we ever be. It's only by the righteousness of Christ can we ever be considered righteous and clean before God almighty. All thru scripture we read many passages that speak of wearing filthy rags vs white robes. Here's just a couple.

"But we are all as an uncleean thing, and all our righteousness are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities like the wind have taken us away. " Isa 64:6

"And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness which is of the law, but that which is trhough the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith." Philip 3:9

YUP, YUP, YUP, you got me. I hear you.....I should have stopped after the words, tunnel vision!!!!   

I seem to follow many of the Church Doctors interpretation. To me, the Apocalypse is a theological vision of the entire panorama of history. It underlines its religious dimension.

According to them, St.John is describing the situation of the Church in his own time, and he is also surveying the panorama of the future last times, but for him these last times have already begun. They began with the entry of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God made man into the world.

I see this as the same in his Gospel which also conceives the last era of the world and eternal life as having in some way already begun and as slowly developing towards ultimate fullness.

Anyway, just thought I'd throw this in to soothe my "duh" moment embarrasment.

I once interpretted Revelation to be applicable to everyone's life - ie, the last days of a person.

So, yeah, duh moments happen.