First a clarification, the Treaty of Tripoli was first taken up under the Washington Administration and signed into law by Adams after being ratified by the Senate. Sorry for that mistake.



No, you said almost all founding fathers talked about putting our trust in
Christ. The emphasis in my commment: "but it is still only one person, not "the founding fathers"" didn't come across. Yes, Jay is A founding father, but just because he, or a couple of them said it doesn't mean it was the position of all the founding fathers -- or the principle forming the basis of the country. If I'm a Christian and start a book club, the book club isn't necessarily a Christian book club.

I just don't think there is evidence that this country was founded as Christian to the exclusion of all other religions. You have evidence that some of the founding fathers were Christian -- that is all.



I think I showed a couple of examples of Founding Fathers who didn't think highly of Christianity -- so I'm not sure how you can justify saying "ALL."



I'm not sure what you are trying to suggest with this, nor am I convinced that you know how old everyone is -- but I'll take the compliment that I'm a "younger one" and I'll ignore the implication of older = wiser.

Maybe you should meet more Christians then. You certainly don't have a monopoly on the religion, nor do you speak for all Christians. Some of us are quite happy with the separation of Church and State and would like to see it not only maintained, but strengthened.

Did you even read my post or look at the link I provided? Several of the things on your list of things the ACLU opposes are the exact same things for which they represented Christians. Such as supporting a second grader singing a religous song at the school talent show. They even joined your hero, Jerry Falwell, in a lawsuit allowing churches to incorporate and won. The ACLU is not anti-Christian. The ACLU is against government endorsement of religion which is in our constitution and what they are addressing with the picture of Jesus in the courthouse.



This is what I call divisiveness. What about all the Christians that the ACLU represented? Do you think maybe one of them thinks that the ACLU is on their side? I am sure they do.

Yes, the ACLU does take extreme cases that no one else will touch. This is what protects our rights including your right to call the ACLU evil. I can understand you thinking that they are wrong on this issue because it is against your personal beliefs. I really can't understand why you would call them evil but it's your right.

Well to put it clearer...less than 1% of the total adult population in 1776 were not members of a Protestant church.

Did you know that Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address was inspired by John Whycliff's (1300's) introduction to the NT when he wrote:

"The BIBLE is for the government of the people, by the peoople, and for the people."

Also I mentioned earlier that every charter of every colony and later the rest of the 50 states includes Bible language: here's a couple..using Christ's name even.

Rhode Island-"We submit....to the Lord Jesus Christ, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords."

Connecticut-"To preserve the liberty and purity of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."

I would suggest you google this...you can get all 50 and see quite clearly this would not be something we would be putting down if it were today these charters were being drawn up....and the ACLU would be right there to make sure.



well I didn't. You even acknowledged I didn't when you said.....



I did say almost. But even the ones like Jefferson who wasn't all that religious would be considered a bible thumper in our day. He was very much in support of a biblical education. He said this:

"With a humble confidence in the mercies of the Supreme and impartial God and Ruler of the Universe, we most devoutly implore His divine goodness to protect us."
-- Thomas Jefferson, July 6, 1775

"The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time: the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them."
-- Thomas Jefferson, Summary view of the Rights of British America, 1774

"The Bible makes the best people of the world."



Actually just about everyone here I know...except you and Loca. I know MM is older than I and that Gid is a bit younger and I know that SC is my kid's age...so yes I know most...not all....even if I'm an old geezer I'd take you young'uns on anytime. I just got back from a 6 mile run and a 9 mile bike ride. I might be "older" in years...but not in body or...in mind....LOL.



hahahahah, maybe. I'll work on that. Did you know that I'm a Pastor's wife? With a congregation of about 300+ I can confidently say I'd be VERY surprised to see even one that would support the ACLU.

Stupid argument, filed with as many holes as the rest of your arguments. You suppose that "In God we Trust" is christian mandatory.

Fact is, we are talking about the place of religion in our public areas.. No, I take it back. In the Governement's area. The Court of Law, the Official Governement Buildings... all that belong to the governement of the United States, and such governement belong to every citizen of the U.S.A.

If any building of the U.S.A. clearly shows support for a religious culture. For example, displaying the 10 Commandments, or having a crucifix on display, it would directly mean that the Governement of the United State clearly supports the linked religion, violating the principle of an un-religious governement.

Such institution has to be godless, for only godless morale can be truly respectful and fair to every citizen under it's juridiction.

Even if the majority of the population in the close area is almost in totality of one peticular religion, no official governement institution should any bias toward any religion, or it could not be considered totally unbiaised when treating a foreign (non-local) U.S. Citizen of another religious group.

In the Court of Law, only the Law prevail. The Bible has no say.

In any modern court of law, no religious display should be allowed.

In HISTORIC buildings, religious display should be kept, because it's part of our culture and heritage. However, any modern, "normal", un-cultural governement building should remain godless.

As he said, you should meet more christian. Which mean, the one who brainwashed them should not be the same man.

First off....I get around...I don't stay inside my little church or denomination for that matter. I'm getting ready to meet with thousands of other Christian women from all other denominations next month besides going to other functions and conferences here and there.

Second. Our Pastor has NEVER ever brought up the ACLU in the pulpit or out of it. He could care less. His mission is to educate the people biblically, not politically. He believes alot of our problems in this arena stem from people being biblically illiterate. So, put your mind at ease...no brainwashing going on here.

You are right. I apologize for mischaracterizing. But I think I showed some very prominant ones that disagreed, so "almost all" still doesn't sit well with me. We are also going to have to agree to disagree on Jefferson. While your final quote clearly references the Bible, the other two merely suggest Deism to me. He believes in a Supreme Being, but it is not conclusive that the Supreme Being is Jesus.



I'm not sure how old you think I am, but you are coming off as condescending (whether or not you intend to).



Do you have a source for that? Because I quoted a historian above who said that less than 10% were members of congregations. Clearly there is contradictory evidence out there (though, that doesn't really surprise me).



Yes, I know that you are a Pastor's wife. I have actually read you quite often but rarely comment. Being a Pastor's wife still doesn't give you a monopoly on the religion nor the authority to speak for all Christians. Loca has shown you some examples of where the ACLU has helped out Christians and you've chosen to ignore them. I usually think the ACLU is a bit extreme, but I value the work they do to help protect civil liberties to everyone. Jesus doesn't belong in the courthouse any more than Mohammad or Buddha do. The Founding Fathers made their intentions fairly clear on that issue.

at risk of seeming naive, is it at all possible you (kfc) believe the best possible manifestation of america would be a nation governed according to biblical law rather than our existing constitution?

As much as I detest the ACLU, I will say this. The name and the implied threat of the ACLU is much more distructive than the group itself. So many stupid policies are set simply because the ACLU's name was taken in vain. For example, the ACLU never said that students shouldn't be able to read scriptures at school, but a lot of school officials have made rules against it for fear of lawsuits from the ACLU.

I know I apologized for this last night, but I wasn't actually wrong. When I said all in the original comment I was referring to this (which is what I quoted from:



So while your article said almost all, your comments said ALL and I don't think that is true.

Reply By: Jythier Posted: Friday, June 29, 2007


There can be ONLY ONE separated into three parts!

Er, doesn't make sense without the rest of the Bible around.


Isn't there a saying that possession is 99% of the law? Jythier, you are in 100% possession of the truth.

There is no doubt that some are either unaware, indifferent or ignoring where all these great things come from, namely the Judeo/Christian ethos, but this is only part of it.

We've moved beyond ignoring...as KFC and others have so well pointed out. We are in a culture war and it is undeniable that the ACLU has been front and center in doing whatever they can to eradicate all vestiges of Christianity from the American landscape.

Up until the late 50's early 60's, the Christian view of man served as the foundation of American culture. All kinds of various religious people immmigrated to America and we became one melting pot up until then. They came, they assimiliated and they accepted our "way of life". Not any more.

Today, there is a massive move to eliminate the influence of Christianity replacing it with the religion of secular and atheistic humanism.

It started with the worldlings telling us we must keep religion out of the schools even as it provides a moral base. They won. They have censored Christianity. Out Christianity went and in with the tenets of the Humanist Manifesto of secular and atheistic humanism. Quite frankly, when I look around, I don't see America aiming for the stars anymore, I see us as groveling in decay far too often...and the ACLU has it's finger squarely in stirring up the pot.

I've never been in a court room, but I've seen them on TV. Correct me, if I'm wrong, as I thought in a court of law, people involved hold up there hand and swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

What is the source of truth that people are swearing to?

 

Reply By: lulapilgrimPosted: Saturday, June 30, 2007

undeniable that the ACLU has been front and center in doing whatever they can to eradicate all vestiges of Christianity from the American landscape.

 

Not just get rid of Jesus related things but GOD in general, the 10 Commandments came from GOD and the ACLU wants that removed more than anything else, and as we all know the BIG 10 AS I LIKE TO CALL THEM came from GOD, to Moses, then Delivered to the Wandering Jewish People.