AND HERE'S MORE KINGBEE:



What 3 certain unalienable rights did the Founding Fathers seek to protect? The Founders envisioned a government that was to protect “Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness” as the “self evident truths endowed by their Creator”.....the unalienable rights which come from Creator, right?


Whereas certainly, Christian values did influence many of the founders to think as they thought or act as they acted as individuals, it is clear that when they were speaking as or for the government, they knew to keep their religion out of it.


What was the source of law for the new constitutional republic according to Founder Noah Webster? “Our citizens should early understand that the genuine source of correct republican principles is the Bible, particularly the New Testament, or the Christian religion.” (Noah Webster, History of the US, pg. 6.) Yes, like it or not, the transcendent values of Biblical natural law were the foundation of the laws of the American constitutional republic. This provided stability---for example, murder will always be a crime for it is always a crime according to Scripture. Contrast this with the source of law for a democracy which is popular feelings of the people and in a democracy if a majority of the people decide that murder is no longer a crime, then, guess what, murder is no longer a crime.

At the time of the Founders, America’s immutable principles of right and wrong were not based on feelings and emotions of a poll taken of the people, but on certain “principles that do not change”. In a letter from Benjamin Rush dated April 1788, “ Where there is no law, there is no liberty, and nothing deserves the name of law but that which is certain and universal in its operation upon all the members of the community.” In the American republic the principles which did not change and which were certain and universal in their operation upon all members of the community were the principles of biblical natural law. These principles were ensconced in the republic so much so that early law books taught that government was free to set its own policies only if God had not ruled on this area first.

From Blackstone’s Commentaries: “To instance in the case of murder: this is expressly forbidden by the Divine...if any human law should allow or enjoin us to commit it, we are bound to transgress that human law....But, with regard to matters that are...not commanded or forbidden by those superior laws such ...as ..the exporting of wool into foreign countries; here the...legislature has scope and opportunity to interpose.”

The Founders, James Wilson, Alexander Hamilton, and Rufus King all signers of the Constitution, echoed that theme:

“All laws, however, may be arranged in two different classes. 1) Divine. 2) Human...but it should always be remembered that this law, natural or revealed, made for men or for nations, flows from the same Divine source: it is the Law of God...Human law must rest its authority of that law which is Divine.” James Wilson.

“The law...dictated by God Himself is, of course, superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times. No human laws are of any validity if contrary to this.” Alexander Hamilton.

“The... law established by the Creator...extends over the whole globe, is everywhere and at all times binding upon mankind...This is the law of God by which He makes His way known to man and is paramount to all human control.” Rufus King.

The fact that the Founders understood that Biblical precepts formed the basis of those laws of newly established government and set up the constitutional republic in this manner signifies that the nation was indeed Christian. They also knew that the republic would be destroyed if the lawmakers’ and peoples’ knowledge of those precepts should ever be lost.

While it’s true the federal government that the Founding Fathers set up was not founded on religion, however, the laws that were enacted were to be in harmony and not contradict God’s laws as laid out in Sacred Scripture.

LULAPILGRIM POSTS:

Kingbee,


I think God owns us and owns all authority over government. When I suggested that you read Romans 13:1-7 I and referred to the government being a "terror to good" or "terror to evil", I was referring to the following:


Romans 13:1-7
1 “Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been established by God.
2 Therefore, he who resists authorities opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will incur judgment upon themselves.
3 For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then, do what is good and you will receive his approval,
4 for he is God’s servant to you for the good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid: for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the evildoer.
5 Therefore, it is necessary for one to be subject, not only to avoid the wrath but also for conscience' sake.
6 For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, serving for this purpose.
7 Render to all men their dues. Taxes to whom taxes are due, custom to whom custom is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.”

God, being the Author of social order, created man as needing to live and develop within a community. There are many Scriptural passages that reveal God’s sovereign will requiring public and social activism from His people. Almighty God uses the individual, the Church and the government of nations as delegated spheres of authority to perform His will and to establish His purposes.


Ron T. Mabon explains it best in his book, “God is politically active”.

The family is the most fundamental and essential institution and the first sphere of delegated authority created and established by God. Gen.2: 23-24; Eph. 6:1-4. The second sphere of delegated authority established by God is the religious authority, the Church. Under the Old Covenant, that authority centered around the Temple, the Levitical priesthood (the Law) and the synagogue. But when the New Covenant was established at the Death and Resurrrection of Christ, that authority was vested by God in the Church. The Church’s authority operates in matters of a spiritual nature--in areas of morality, seeking and interpretating God’s will and in fulfilling His mandate and purpose of the salvation of souls.

The third sphere of authority that was created, established and instituted by God for His purpose is the institution of government. Since each family, Church, and government authority is delegated to human individuals who are capable of misusing it, each user is accountable to God for his administration of his authority that he holds and he is held to a higher standard than the person who holds none i.e. “...to whom much is given, much is required.” St.Lk. 12:48; cf StJames 3:1.

There is no authority but by act of God, and the existing authorities are instituted by Him; consequently anyone who rebels against authority is resisting a divine order. So the authority contained in civil government is God’s authority and becasue it is both instituted and accountable to Him, it exists to accomplish His purpose. Politics, as you know, is the inner workings and the activities of government. God was involved in the politics of Egypt and so was His man, Joseph. God is involved and like Joseph, so should His people be. Therefore, we cannot be obedient to God’s will and also be apathetic to politics or to the authority of government for when we are it leads to dire results --so called legalization of pornography, sodomy, abortion, and euthanasia to name just a few.

I think our constitution was based on biblical lawand your basis for thinking this is...?

I was just about to quote you EXACTLY what Lula quoted you above in #61...so she beat me to it.......we must remember we were set up as a republic..not a democracy. There was a reason for this.



I especially like this one....



Our citizens should early understand that the genuine source of correct republican principles is the Bible, particularly the New Testament, or the Christian religion-Noah Webster



"The Founders understood that Biblical values formed the basis of the republic and that the republic would be destroyed if the people's knowledge of those values should ever be lost"- David Barton of Wallbuilders

you young'uns I'm not sure how old you think I am, but you are coming off as condescending (whether or not you intend to).

first off...Shades, I have NO idea how old you are. I'm taking it you are young? I in no way intended it to be condescending only replying to SC and Charle's talk of the dividing line between the Dems and the Republicans...I only was saying I think there seems to be a dividing line by age, not so much policial party here. I was just making an observation.

Do you have a source for that? Because I quoted a historian above who said that less than 10% were members of congregations. Clearly there is contradictory evidence out there (though, that doesn't really surprise me).

That 10% makes really no sense to me at all. The very first building that went up in every town was a church. The towns were always built around a church. To NOT go to church would have been a disgrace and one would have been thought a heathen not to go.



I'd have to go on a hunt for what I gave you. I'll see if I can find a source or where I picked it up. I read this quite a bit ago and just put it in my memory. It made sense to me at the time. Quite a bit of the signers were trained ministers. I'm thinking maybe a third of them. The only two non religious signers I'm aware of is Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, and out of the 56 or so signers these two are usually the only two that many can name. I don't think that's a coincidence. I think we've been trained to think this way since about the 1950's or so, including me. I had no idea other than John Hancock who the others were.

Since we seemed to have some disagreement here on Christ being actually named by the founders....while I did include a few yesterday I thought I'd just add a few more that came from their wills (or autobiography) and were read at their deaths.

Samuel Adams Father of the American Revolution, Signer of the Declaration of Independence "I ... recommend my Soul to that Almighty Being who gave it, and my body I commit to the dust, relying upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins".

John DickinsonSigner of the Constitution "Rendering thanks to my Creator for my existence and station among His works, for my birth in a country enlightened by the Gospel and enjoying freedom, and for all His other kindnesses, to Him I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity."

Patrick HenryGovernor of Virginia, Patriot "This is all the inheritance I can give to my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed."

John Langdon
Signer of the Constitution
"In the name of God, Amen. I, John Langdon, . . . considering the uncertainty of life and that it is appointed unto all men once to die [Hebrews 9:27], do make, ordain and publish this my last will and testament in manner following, that is to say-First: I commend my soul to the infinite mercies of God in Christ Jesus, the beloved Son of the Father, who died and rose again that He might be the Lord of the dead and of the living . . . professing to believe and hope in the joyful Scripture doctrine of a resurrection to eternal life . . . "

Robert Treat Paine Signer of the Declaration of Independence "When I consider that this instrument contemplates my departure from this life and all earthly enjoyments and my entrance on another state of existence, I am constrained to express my adoration of the Supreme Being, the Author of my existence, in full belief of his providential goodness and his forgiving mercy revealed to the world through Jesus Christ, through whom I hope for never ending happiness in a future state, acknowledging with grateful remembrance the happiness I have enjoyed in my passage through a long life . . ."

Rufus PutnamRevolutionary War General, First Surveyor General of the United States "First, I give my soul to a holy, sovereign God Who gave it in humble hope of a blessed immortality through the atonement and righteousness of Jesus Christ and the sanctifying grace of the Holy Spirit. My body I commit to the earth to be buried in a decent Christian manner. I fully believe that this body shall, by the mighty power of God, be raised to life at the last day; 'for this corruptable (sic) must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality.' [I Corinthians 15:53]."

Benjamin Rush Signer of the Declaration of Independence "My only hope of salvation is in the infinite, transcendent love of God manifested to the world by the death of His Son upon the cross. Nothing but His blood will wash away my sins. I rely exclusively upon it. Come, Lord Jesus! Come quickly!" Benjamin Rush, The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, George Corner, editor (Princeton: Princeton University Press for the American Philosophical Society, 1948), p. 166, Travels Through Life, An Account of Sundry Incidents & Events in the Life of Benjamin Rush.

Roger ShermanSigner of the Declaration of Independence, Signer of the Constitution "I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. . . . that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are a revelation from God. . . . that God did send His own Son to become man, die in the room and stead of sinners, and thus to lay a foundation for the offer of pardon and salvation to all mankind so as all may be saved who are willing to accept the Gospel offer." Lewis Henry Boutell, The Life of Roger Sherman (Chicago: A. C. McClurg and Company, 1896), pp. 272-273.

John Witherspoon Signer of the Declaration of Independence "I entreat you in the most earnest manner to believe in Jesus Christ, for there is no salvation in any other [Acts 4:12]. . . . f you are not reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, if you are not clothed with the spotless robe of His righteousness, you must forever perish. " John Witherspoon, The Works of John Witherspoon (Edinburgh: J. Ogle, 1815), Vol. V, pp. 276, 278, The Absolute Necessity of Salvation Through Christ, January 2, 1758.


I could go on and on and on. But you get the point. Our founding fathers were Christian although the revisionists are trying to wipe all references out of our textbooks. That's why many don't even have a clue who the "other" signers were. How many out there are familiar with the ones I just mentioned? We've been duped by the system......(me included). So it's time to go back to their writings and see for ourselves.

There's a book out there called "The Godless Constitution" written by two Ph.D's who saw no need to have sources to back up what they are saying. No footnotes? Instead they put this:

“we have dispensed with the usual scholarly apparatus of footnotes.”

I guess they figured we really don't need the sources; just believe them that our Constitution is Godless and we'll all be better off. Let's not bother going back to the original writings and documents to find out for ourselves what the truth really is.

First, I've gotta end the italics, kids.

Second:

Go Gid go! You know that I hate what's going on in Gitmo too, and have been against it since the beginning, so . . .



I may disagree with them at times, but I'm (arguably) Christian too, and I'm a member of the ACLU. I don't see all the evil that some people must . . .

Calling the ACLU evil is hyperbole, pure and simple. It's aninstitution which promotes a certain viewpoint on the part of citizens who wish to make use of its services in the interest of that viewpoint. A perfectly legitimate function for an institution in a democracy.

You personally may find that viewpoint objectionable, nonsensical, treacherous, depraved, or whatever. But that doesn't make it so.

As for the rest of this 'debate', with rare exceptions its been conducted at the level of 'he said this so I'm right - no he said that so I'm right'.

The trouble with America and Americans is that there is nothing that unites them anymore. Their religion is nothing but narrow sectarianism that would make any Shia or Sunni proud; their politics has no interest but profit and advantage for neo-patricians and their tribal cabals of oligarchs; their public space is no more than a series of fortified ghettos; their society nothing more than a glorified version of the bread and circuses provided by Roman Emperors to keep the howling mob entertained and redirect its bloodlust away from those that ruled it. Even your language is under assault - from 'ebonics', from Spanish, and from the gross corruptions of English practiced in the name of advertising, such as the nonsense words 'cabinocity' and 'steerology' created as part of an ad campaign for a new car.

Nothing unites you - at least, nothing that can be roused by anything short of another attack on the scale of 9/11.

And as Jesus has played such a large part in this 'discussion', here are a few words of his:

Mar 3:22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.
Mar 3:23 And he called them [unto him], and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
Mar 3:24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
Mar 3:25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
Mar 3:26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.

you didn't respond to my mention of samuel adams in a discussion elsewhere, if it had been up to him there woulda been no need for you to demand a fatwa against john kerry. sam was all for freedom to worship for everyone but catholics.

May I ask what the biblical principles are that you Christians keep taunting as the foundation of the United States? Where are they in the NT? And is it the principles or the source that is important?

Be well.

EOIC-

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.



Well it depends on where you're coming from I guess. You know my stance so it shouldn't surprise you I'd think this way. I am pretty black and white. Like Christ said....you're either for me or against me.



While opinions are ok, opinions with facts behind them go alot further with me. I try to back up much of what I say with facts, not going on mere opinion. I try to back my opinion up with something a bit more concrete than "I think so."



You're right on with this. We are not united. During the World Wars the country was unified in every which way. I love to hear the WWII stories about how the country came together and fought against the enemy. You are right, we will go nowhwere until we get our act together, and I'm wondering if that will ever happen again.



I'm afraid it may take something like that.....even 9/11 it didn't last long. For the most part it's hard to rally an apathetic crowd. We need to get angry against terror and I don't see that happening right now.



sorry....I must have missed it. I know there was some anti-catholic sentiment on the part of those coming to the New World, but I always thought that was understandable coming from their heritage and what was gong on in England and the rest of Europe when the Pilgrims were fleeing for their lives in order to worship. They were trying to get away from that mentality not embrace it.

I think that pretty much says it all. If we can not find a way to unite ourselves, anything other than the death of thousand of our own in one shot, we are lost. This is exactly what I continue to say over and over, we have become a society of "me, I and myself". No one else but me matters and that is why the tactic of "divide and conquer" works so well.

John Adams said:

"It must be felt that there is no national security but in the nation’s humble acknowledged dependence upon God and His overruling providence."

Thankfulness to God has always been an integral component of Independence Day celebrations. In fact, on the original Independence Day in 1776, John Adams said:

"This day ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty."

On July 4, 1837, some sixty-one years after the Declaration of Independence was first issued, John Quincy Adams delivered an speech in which he noted that America’s two most popular holidays (Christmas and the Fourth of July) were inseparably linked:

"In the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior. It forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation. The Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer’s mission on Earth [and] laid the cornerstone of human government on the first precepts of Christianity."

The Declaration of Independence actually embodied what Adams described as "the first precepts of Christianity." The Declaration did incorporate Biblical principles.

David Barton, historian said this:

"Consider the philosophy that undergirds the Declaration. Where did the signers find the ideas of God-given inalienable rights, religious freedoms, liberty of conscience, individualism, limited government, full republicanism, etc. – ideas that have now made the Declaration the most successful government document in the history of the world?"

The answer? John Locke.

John Locke(1632-1704) was an English theologian and political philosopher, and Declaration signers such as John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Rush, and many others sang his praises. John Quincy Adams even affirmed:

"The Declaration of Independence [was] . . . founded upon one and the same theory of government . . . expounded in the writings of Locke."

His writing that most influenced the Founders’ philosophy in the Declaration of Independence was his "Treatise of Government". In fact, signer of the Declaration Richard Henry Lee declared that the Declaration was “copied from Locke’s "Treatise on Government.”

This book is still available from most major book sellers so I'd suggest you get a copy and read it for yourself. So how many out there know that a Theologian was instrumental in our Declaration of Independence and that almost half of the signers were trained seminarians?

I, for one, wish to let others know. The "other side" would wish you didn't know these things.

Exactly, and it goes right back to the Garden of Eden when the serpent spoke to Eve apart from her husband and wished only to get inbetween them and God.

Maybe that's why my missing anti-ACLU book had a picture of a hissing serpent on the cover. The ACLU does not wish to unite us but only to divide.

sorry....I must have missed it. I know there was some anti-catholic sentiment on the part of those coming to the New World, but I always thought that was understandable coming from their heritage and what was gong on in England and the rest of Europe when the Pilgrims were fleeing for their lives in order to worship. They were trying to get away from that mentality not embrace it.

Calvanists and Hugonots. Remember there were Catholic colonies as well (Maryland comes to mind).
The thing that strikes me about all of this discussion is the lack of understanding about "why" things were the way they were and "why" they are the way they are now. We as Americans have a tendency to see things from our uniquely American perspective, which is a relatively recent point of view in the grand scheme of things. Even a cursory glance at European history from the fall of the Roman Empire to the colonization of America and the ensuing American Revolution shows that religion was tightly intertwined in governments and politics. Remember our Founding Fathers were more European in their viewpoints than we in our modern American version. The "Religion Establishment" clause was aimed at preventing a state religion and it's associated preferential treatment (and abuses) such as in England (Anglican) and Spain (Catholicism). It did not license anti-religionism. However more learned men than I have debated that for decades now.
That is "why" things were as they were then. Perhaps "why" we are where we are now is because we have evolved away from our natal European quasi-Christian political viewpoints (some would say "finally"), and are now more blended in our "melting pot" called America.
Taking that thought further, it becomes almost necessary for an organization such as the ACLU to be a watchdog and cry foul when one group is preferred or denied over another. That does not prevent one from practicing their religion or building a place of worship. It does prevent putting a Nativity Scene on public lands to the exclusion of any other relgious representation. America is not Ancient Israel and was never a Theocracy.
Personally I am Christian (Catholic) and I am an American. I have the right to practice Catholicism, and hang Crucifixes in my home and teach my children my faith. I do not have the right to hang them all over my block or insist that they be in my PUBLIC schools or government offices any more than a Jew Menorahs or a Muslim Crescents. My religion teaches me that all men are my brothers and I am to love them as myself. That means I don't offend them with my religion either if they do not believe as I do, and my government exists to ensure we both do not offend or incite eachother. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me! If the ACLU has to fire up the government from time to time when it gets overly influenced by one group or another, that's fine by me.

“Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it”
George Santayana
“History is a pack of lies about events that never happened told by people who weren't there.” George Santayana