LULA POSTS:

KFC POSTS 599:

And the Protestant way of becoming a Christian Assured Of Salvation--- that is, by taking the altar call and confessing Jesus as your personal Savior---- makes no sense to me realistically nor can you show it Scripturally. For some sects, Protestant baptism follows but it's merely a ceremony, declared not part of the salvation process, nor does it wash away sins.

Yet, if you put all the Scripture together, you'll learn that Christian Baptism, instiuted by Christ, was indeed for the Christianizing of man, for his spiritual rebirth and regeneration, which begins with the wiping out of Original Sin.

So that I may be saved and enter into Heaven, I became a Christian. That happened when I was baptized...I "put on Christ" Gal. 3:28 and was "born again of water and the Holy Spirit".

Of course water as the meduim used for Baptism makes sense...perfect sense. Christ was well, brilliant, for choosing water. You really need to get over your refusal to acknowledge the use of water in Baptism. Water is the natural medium, the action of the Holy Spirit accomplishes the actual washing away of sin, the rebirth of new life in Christ.

The Bible records that in St.Matt. 28:19 Christ commanded His disciples go to all nations and teach and baptize in the name (not names, btw) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

In St.John 3, we're told how important Baptism is: Unless one is born again of water and the HS, he cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven.

Then, there is St.Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved; but he that believeth not, shall be condemned." 

And don't forget what Ananias said to Paul in Acts 22:16, "Stand up, be baptized, and wash away your sins."  

 Christ chose water as the natural medium through the action of the Holy Spirit by which a person is Baptized into His family and made a child of God and heir to the kingdom of heaven. That's it. It's realisticlly makes sense becasue God has sent His disciples all over the world to make Christians converts by Baptism. Water is the most natural resource, something everyone has all over the world if they want to become baptized into Christianity.

Now consider this...

Acts 2... which follows in time the happening of Sts. Matthew, Mark, and John above....tells us that after the disciples receive the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, v.14, St.Peter spoke to the multitudes from every nation who had come there, giving testimony about the Resurrected Christ. They asked him what should they do for they weren't Christians yet?  v.38-47 tells us that St.Peter said,

38 Do penance and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

39 For the promise is to you, and to your children and to all that are far off, whomsoever our Lord God shall call.

40 .....Save yourselves from this perverse generation.

41 they therefore that received his word were baptized; and there were added in that day about three thousand souls.

(By baptism added to what family KFC? Christ's family by becoming Christian).

42 And they were persevering in the doctrine of the Apostles and in the communication of the breaking of the bread and in prayers.

46 And continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house....

47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord increased daily together such as should be saved.

These passages come together and tell the story of the beginning of Christianity and who and how the converts became the first Christians, KFC. It wasn't the Protestant way of holding off Baptism as some mere ceremony.  

You don't even know enough about ancient Judaism to know how little different the two really are.

You keep mentioning that Judaism is different now because there is no Temple in Jerusalem. Yet you don't seem to realise that the religion of Israel is older than the Temple. Plus I am sure you didn't know that there were _two_ temples in Israel. And the Israelite religion split into two a long time before 70 "AD". Both variants existed after their respective temples had been destroyed. And the parent religion existed before the first Temple was built.

I asked you in the past what exactly you think makes modern Judaism so different from the ancient religion that you claim that it is not the same. But your answers were always some nonsense about YOUR religion rather than Judaism.

Can you explain the differences between ancient and current Judaism without explaining some version of Christianity instead? I doubt it.

The modern state of Israel is the same as the ancient state of Israel, except it is a republic rather than a kingdom. If Jesus is the Messiah, this is the Israel that he needs for the prophecy when he comes back. If, however, modern Judaism has nothing to do with ancient Judaism, the prophecy cannot work and Jesus cannot be the Messiah, because his task of bringing the children of Israel back to the holy land and rebuild _their_ Temple cannot be done.

And no, there is nothing in Jewish scripture that says that the church or any group can replace the Jews.

I just read this morning from my  teacher Marv in his latest magazine Zion's Hope :

"The believing Church is not Israel; it never was Israel and never will replace Israel. Replacement theology has no legitimacy in God's Word.  It is not only a form of spiritual anti-Semitism; it is far worse, for it impugns the faithfulness of God to His eternal promises.  However, it is equally true that all of the Church's blessings come through Israel and her incomparable Son.  It is that association which will place Gentile believers-the "remnant of her seed" in the crosshairs of Satan's persecution in the last days.  We are already, in our beloved America, seeing the increasing attempts to dismantle Christianity, to re-write the Judeo-Christian foundation out of our history, and the insidious persecution of those who hold to biblical principles.  It is only going to get worse-much worse." 

First of all...I don't believe in altar calls.  That came about as a result of Charles Finney and is NOT biblical. 

So there you go spouting off again Lula. 

We do not see Christ BEGGING anyone to come to him.  That's pretty much what altar calls are for.  Begging others to come to the front.  Don't agree with it. 

I've shown you many times in scripture (ad nauseum) you just don't have eyes to see nor ears to hear.  Water Baptism DOES NOT wash away sins.  IS NOT part of the salvation process and is MORE than just a mere ceremony. 

""Sirs what must I do to be saved?

"And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved..."  Acts 16:31

nothing about baptism.  It's all about going to Christ...not the water.  It's about being baptized in HIS NAME..never was about the water. 

You just don't get it Lula, because you are MORE content in listening to men than the Word of God.  Plain and simple. 

ha!  Now this is funny.  Are you listening Lula.  God speaks yet again.  That's NOT what Gal 3:28 says.  It says:

"THere is neither Jew nor Greek there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female for you are all one in Christ Jesus." 

I'm sure you were referring to 3:27 but still God is speaking.  Anyhow the baptism you are quoting in 3:27 is NOT water baptism.  It's again....that baptism John spoke about and that you yourself quoted..."by fire and the Holy Spirit."  That is NOT water baptism.  It's the spirit's baptism which brings believers into a living union with Christ...nothing to do with water. 

In fact my bible says nothing about water in 3:27.  Are you sure you're quoting that right?  Mine says:  "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." 

Nothing to do with "water and Holy Spirit."   Something is wrong.  You are either mis quoting scripture or you are purposely trying to mislead to prove yourself correct.  OR "your" bible is not telling you the truth.  It's one of the three. 

After pondering...I know exactly what you did and it's for the sole purpose of misleading.  You took two scriptures and tried to mesh together to fit what you want it to say.

Congratulations...your RCC must be very proud of you. 

Read the following to go with what you tried to put down from Galatians.

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."   1 Cor 12:13

It's always been about spirit..not the physical.  Always.  Now compare those two scriptures (Gal & Cor) to that one in John 3:5 but keep reading to v6-8 and put the pieces together. 

See what you're doing is you're only seeing the water (physical ) everytime you see the word baptism.  You're not seeing that baptism can and mostly means spiritual.   It's very clear it's the spiritual baptism that's important.  The water baptism is the outward expression of what's happened to us inside. 

well well well...are you deliberately doing this Lula?  Seems so.  Or is your RCC bible leaving out part of the scripture?  This is what the scripture says fully...

"And now why do you tarry?  Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins calling on the name of the LORD." 

Again. over and over I keep showing you...it's not WATER.  It's the coming to Christ that saves.  Your focus is ALL wrong.  It's like the paralytic in John 5 who was lame for 38 years.  He kept looking at the water in the pool to make him well.  Jesus came and took his focus OFF the pool and onto himself.  The water doesn't save.  Christ does. 

You are that paralytic Lula.  Your focus is on the what and not the who.  Your focus is on the physical water, not the LIVING WATER. 

YOU'RE BUSTED LULA.    You are deliberately trying to mislead. 

I took your bible, your Douay Rheims that you sent me and looked up Acts 22:16 which you quoted to us trying to persuade us.  You put this quote in:

BUT THIS IS WHAT THE DR (your very own bible)  ACTUALLY SAYS:

"And now why tarriest thou?  Rise up and be baptized and wash away thy sins, invoking his name." 

Why did you leave off...invoking his name? 

Because it doesn't fit your agenda.  Because it proves what I've been saying all along...you are saved by invoking his name, by calling upon him NOT BY WATER BAPTSIM. 

Brings me right back to the garden..."did God really say?'' 

[kfc postsed

My point stands....St.John 3:5 and Acts 22:16 clearly refutes your false assertion that Baptism doesn't wash away sins.

Now, as far as baptism being an act of the Holy Spirit, and invoking His name, you must have missed my post 577 which was:  

KFc posts:

go back and read Matt 28:19 carefully.

"Go you therefore and teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit."

notice he's saying baptize them IN THE NAME.

LULA POSTS:
That's right --in the name of the Blessed Trinity..that's the formula or the words said during the rite of Baptism...Just as Scripture evidences the Blessed Trinity at Christ's Baptism in the River Jordan, the Blessed Trinity is called down and its HIS action by the gift of supernatural grace that is poured on the soul of the person as he/she is either having water poured on his head or immersed in water.[/quote]

kfc posts

Knock, knock, KFC. If you put together the highlighted I wrote in 577 with the following passages

St.John 3:5, Unless a man be born again of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

St.Matt. 28:19,  Christ commanded his disciples to baptize all nations in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost until the consummation of the world.

you should be able to see that the rite of Christian Baptism does indeed invoke His name (the Blessed Trinity as per Christ's command) while the water is being poured upon the person or he is being immersed in water.

Water and invoking the action the action of the Holy Spirit IS the Christian rite of Baptism...WHICH washes away Original Sin and actual sin and makes the person a Christian, a child  of God and an heir to the kingdom of Heaven.

I never said the water saves so stop trying to put words in my mouth...I've said all along that Baptism is necessary for salvation and water is part of the Baptismal formula that Christ gave.

Don't know what I did but sorry to see my reply to the first quote somehow got inside the quote box.

-------------------------------

kfc posts:

Plain and simple....That's just it....I have defended Christian Baptism using Scripture and refuted all your false assertions using Scripture.

You said Water Baptism does not wash away sins and God's Word in St.John 3:5 and Acts 22:16 proves otherwise.

You said Baptism is not part of the salvation process and the Word of God in St.Mark 16:16 and St.John 3:5 proves otherwise.

you only quoted?  You deliberatly left off the part that is the most important to prove your point.  That's being a false teacher Lula.  You are a product of your RCC.  That's exactly what they have done. 

You've accused others before of being a cafeteria Christian by taking only what they want...well you just proved yourself.  You are  deliberately not only taking things out of context and twisting but also purposely not including words that should be there.  On top of that you took certain words out of  John 3:5 and meshed it in with Gal 3:27 and called it Gal 3:27 when it was in fact not.  That's deception.  And we know who the father of lies is.  Don't we? 

I have given you the benefit of the doubt all this time that you were truly a seeker, maybe just misguided at best or hopelessly ingrained at worse by the RCC but now after this exchange I am convinced I am not dealing with a true genuine seeker but one that is honestly working for Satan for her own gain. 

Sorry Lula.  I don't say these words easily. 

kfc posts:

You must have missed reading my comments in 577 in which I explained that Baptism of water is only one kind of Baptism.

I said that water is what is called for in St.John 3:5-6 yet there are other types of Baptism that are just as effacious...by Baptism by Blood (maryrdom) or Baptism by Desire. God always gave and always will give everyone in the world the means of attaining the grace necessary for the entrance into the kingdom of Heaven.

The Pentitent Thief died clearly expressing his faith in Christ as well as having a contrite repentance of his sin. Even though he didn't receive the laver of regeneration, he expressed a desire to be with God after he died.  His actions proved as effective for the remission of all his sins, and Christ granted him entrance into Heaven. the Pentitent Thief was a type of Baptism by Desire.

No, the quote clearly says:

"Rise up and be baptized and wash away thy sins, invoking his name."

Clearly the act of the baptism is only a ritual used as a vessel for invoking the name. Religion is full of such empty rituals that simply exist to keep people entertained. But the actual power comes not from any ritual but from G-d.

To me it looks like the ritual here is merely a metaphor so that humans can understand what is going on. But the actual cleansing of sins, if it happens, comes not from the ritual but from G-d.

True. It takes away the Jewish people's role in a Christian world. And I think that was probably the idea behind it. Islam went through the same transformation when Muhammed appeared to try to stop rabbis from contradicting his theology based on their scripture that he said his religion was based on.

If the church replaces Israel, the church is free to rewrite anything it wants.

lula posts:

KFC POSTS:

You have sorely misjudged me. Mine was an honest explanation of what I did...just took part of the Biblical quote that refuted your false assertion that Baptism doesn't wash away sins.

Yes, the Scriptures I cited all mesh together in support of the necessity of Baptism for the remission of sins. As a self proclaimed long-time reader and teacher of the Holy Bible, it shouldn't surprise you that every one of the passages of Scripture support and hold up one another. There is no contradciton there. That Scripture  "meshes" together to teach, support or explain a teaching of Christ is the way Scripture was meant to be.

Thanks. I take that as a compliment. And you KFC are the product of the churches of Protestantism.  

 Ever since your request, I have tried not to bring up the Catholic Church but since you have here I'll remind you that St.Matthew 16:18 plaiinly declares that Christ would build a Church, not churches, as He did, against which the "gates of Hell" would endeavor to prevail, as they have against the Catholic Chruch throughout the Christian ages, but without success.  

St.Matthew 18:17 contains the command to "hear the Church" and that's what I've done my best to do. Romans 15:6 calls upon Christians "to glorify God with one mind and one mouth". The text in Romans alone proves that it is utterly foreign to the Spirit of the New Testament to assume that the will of Christ can be expressed through the minds and mouths of some several hundred different kinds of Protestant churches.

Slamming and sniping at the Catholic Church and now me personally isn't positive to the discussion.  Just becasue I don't accept your take on points made in the discussion and on the meaning of Scripture doesn't mean I'm not a true seeker.

The first step of my being Catholic and a member of Christ's Mystical Body, the Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, was my Christian Baptism. Praise Almighty God. I'm in the race, KFC, and will, with the help of God's grace, persevere in the faith to the end.

You spoke before of using common sense....To that I would add right reasoning must accompany common sense in understanding the Scriptures.

May the blessedness of right Christian understanding of the Scriptures be yours.

Thank you thank you thank you Leauki.  You get it and you're NOT EVEN a Christian. 

that's exactly right and has happened (in certain instances). 

leauki posts:

Yes, the Christian Sacrament or rite of Baptism is a ritual for invoking the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. True, the actual power comes from God.

False religion is full of empty rituals... However, there are no empty rituals meant to keep people entertained in the only true religion of God which  the CC claims to be.

Christian Baptism is not a mere ceremony nor merely a metaphor, but the real deal.

Just as the religious ritual of circumcision was the real deal and not just a metaphor in making the Isrealite a member of God's chosen people.

Yes, the cleansing away of sins comes from God.