The angel of the L-RD who appeared in both in the burning bush and at exodus (if you go to Exodus 14:19 and verse 24 you can see G-D took form) from Egypt is called by Isaiah "the angel of HIS presence" In Isaiah 63:9 "In all their affliction HE was afflicted and the angel of HIS presence saved them: in HIS love and in HIS pity HE redeemed them; HE bare them, and carried them all the days of old."  I love that scripture for it shows the heart of G-D

I'm not sure how this didn't answer your question or Hosea and Ghomer. Isaiah 52:13-53:12 shows why G-D had to take human form as well as Isaiah 41:8-16. The appearance of the Divine presence took place at Mount Sinai.

G-D got sick of them bring their burnt offerings (you can see this in Isaiah 43:23; 1:10-14). HE wanted a change of heart.  This can be seen in Jeremiah 31:31-34 where G-D will write it on their hearts.

G-D had to provide the perfect sacrifice.  Why did G-D do this? I think Isaiah 63:9 speaks well as to why HE did this.

In Romans 10:4 'It says that the GOAL of the law was Jesus Christ.' Everything in the Tanack was to point to the coming Messiah for that's the goal.

I am also sorry for not understanding your question.  I am not always the smartest nor swiftest person and I didn't realize that your question was as clear as it was stated.

JU messes up quotes again...

It's very considerate of you, and I truly mean that.



It's not considerate, actually, it's my religion. Judaism teaches that G-d might have given other messages to other people. It's open and not a concern for followers of the Jewish faith. For all I care G-d could have told you, personally, that you should be a Christian and that Jesus is indeed YOUR Messiah. It just doesn't matter to me and hence I have no problem with understanding that my beliefs are not facts, not even if they are fact and might just not be fact for non-Jews.




It would be more considerate however if you didn't insist that everyone do as you do.



I think it is common courtsey to distinguish between fact and opinion when discussing anything.




Which does remind me to apologize to you for the manner in which I post that seems to bother you.  For your sake I will try to control my natural way of speaking when a post is directed to you.



Thank you.




"It changes the dynamics. It is clear that she is not here to discuss and learn but to remind us that we all follow the wrong faith and should follow hers. I don't care if you follow my faith or another. The Christians here want you and me to follow their faith, but there are two ways to act on that: one is to be an example, the other is to "correct" those who are wrong. The latter doesn't help.

Whose dynamics?  Conversation like people, evolve.  I don't think that anyone controls the dynamics in a conversation, nor should they even try.  When one does the conversation dies.  What a pity, death by control.

So Lulapilgrim isn't here to learn.  So what?  I am, and I also want to hear Lulapilgrims views and beliefs even if her intention is to convert me.



That's not my problem with her. KFC probably also wants to convert me (and you). But she does not tell me what things mean in my religion. Lula keeps saying things about Judaism that she claims are facts while they are indeed not and are usually based on on her plain ignorance of the Jewish faith.

If I kept saying that it is a fact that Christians practice baptism because it is a service to the water god Mayim or the sun god Shemesh to do so, I would not only be wrong about what the ritual means in Christianity but I would also be out of my depth because I really don't know what the ritual means in a specific Christian church.

What Lula says about Judaism is usually wrong, sometimes offensive, but always presented by her as fact rather than her belief.

KFC's beliefs don't match mine, but when she says something about Jewish practices, she usually knows what those practices are and why they are done and merely disagrees with the theological aspect of it but does not tell stories about those rituals that are simply not true. I can see in her articles that she understands Judaism and simply believes something else. Lula doesn't understand Judaism and thinks of her beliefs that are different from Judaism as facts that disprove (what she thinks is) Judaism.

(I also have a history with Lula regarding her misrepresenting Jewish writings in previous discussions.)




No one can do to me that which I don't allow them to do.  I also don't care that she insists that her beliefs are facts, and it's the only way and the only truth.  How does her insistence hurt or harm me?



Wait until people like her become a majority again.

Do you know how some fanatical Muslims' insistence that their way is the only truth occasionally hurts people? That same thing happens when Christians (or anyone) think that they are truly right and that every belief is a fact. Of course, some Christian sects automatically put a stop to this by recognising that there is a difference between faith and fact.




It doesn't. I get the feeling that this is a matter of neither one being able to bend the other to acknowledge their point of view as being right.  If it is, this is an ego matter, and one that I am simply not interested in, and can fully ignore.



As I said, for all I care Christianity could be true, for Christians. It doesn't concern me.

Lovely quote peoples party, thank you for the gift of it.  However it still doesn't show why God had to take a human form.  An angel is not a human form.  Nor does it explain why God had to live and die in remittance of mankinds sin.  The sin is ours and only we are responsible for paying the penalty for it.

I am of the feeling that Jesus proved to God that mankind was capable of paying the penalty not only that but capable of putting God over oneself.  In Jesus's great sacrifice and love he paved the way for all mankind, for man was now made acceptable in the eyes of God.  Acceptable to leave this world and continue his journey back to God.  I'm sure that many think that is not so, but this is my feeling on the matter.   

I think I understand your feelings on the matter Leauki.  It's your quirk and the quirk of others as well no doubt.  I find such quirks in myself a waste of time and a distraction as well.  When I am concentrating on my quirks and my annoyance of others because of them I'm not concentrating on what they are saying and instead I am focusing on the irritation.   I've found it's better to ignore the irritation and far more condusive to conversation.  But that is just my experience and opinion.  Everyone is entitled to their own. 

You know what the Jewish rituals mean.  Does it truly matter if someone else insists that they mean something else altogether?  Will it change the meaning for you?  I don't think so.  When one has the truth of the matter the insistence of another will not change it.  You've told her what the true meaning is, isn't that enough?  Does it really matter that she doesn't accept it?  I don't think that it will add not one thing to you nor take away not one thing if she doesn't.

When people like her become the majority again they still will not force me nor intimidate or frighten me.  I always have a choice even if the choice is death.  I guess it's a matter of which is more important to one, one's beliefs or ones life.  It is the same with radical islamists, when one loses a petty tyrant, another one is always there to take their place.   Your own jewish history shows this as well as the history of the rest of the world.  For the christians at one time it was the Romans, and then the christians became to others what the romans were to them.  And on and on it goes.

There lies great danger in people misrepresenting what Judaism is about.

It will not change the meaning for me, but possibly the "me" part when people who believe a lie or error about Judaism act on such beliefs.

I do understand your feelings based on the past experiences of your people.  It is my experience that people will do what they wish regardless of whether they have been told the truth or not.  Your point however is well taken.

Tell me if you would, why are you here if you don't care what christians believe, considering the topic subject and the fact that it was started by KFC whom you obviously know is christian.  Is it out of curiosity not unlike myself, or is there another reason?

I'm also interested if you would, in hearing your jewish views on Jesus.  Would you mind? 

You misunderstood. I am interested in what Christians believe. I just don't care whether it is true or not. It doesn't impact me as I have my own little world. I believe that G-d came to the people of Israel and gave them land and law. What He did to other people is of no concern to me. He might have sent other prophets to other people, I don't know.

If somebody, for example a Zoroastrian, claims that G-d sent them a prophet too, I'll accept it as true if it doesn't contradict my faith and as unimportant if it does.

If a Buddhist tells me that gods don't matter and only love is important, I accept as true that love is more important than gods, for non-Jews (and possibly equally important for Jewish Buddhists).

If a Muslim tells me that Muhammed was a prophet, I really don't care whether it is true but I wish him best of luck with the belief and appreciate everything Muhammed taught him that is also held to be true in my religion.

And if a Christian tells me that Jesus was the Messiah, it gets complicated. My Messiah he is not, since that would contradict my faith. But for all I care he could be the Messiah of non-Jews or of those non-Jews who believe in him. And I don't know what their requirements are for a Messiah.

The rabbinical view is that there is no Jewish view on Jesus.

My personal view (which is quite common) is that Jesus existed and was a rabbi ("great one" = "teacher") and probably a very decent man and great scholar. The stories told about him certainly are important and great advice regarding how one should behave and act.

I do not believe that he is G-d, because G-d doesn't have a corporeal form in Judaism.

I do not believe that he is the son of G-d, because G-d has no equals.

I do not believe that he was the Messiah, because he did not achieve any of the things that the Messiah was predicted to achieve. If he comes back and achieves them, we can talk again. The list includes the return of all Israelites to the land of Israel, world peace, and rebuilding the Temple. The messiah ("anointed" king) who came closest so far was emperor Cyrus of Iran 2500 years ago, and I have the greatest respect for Cyrus and any Iranian monarch because of that.

I believe that I am not allowed to worship Jesus because he is a man, and Jews are not permitted to worship anything but G-d.

And I believe that Christianity is a religion with a lot of truth in it but that the icons and cruficixes are a big problem because they are very close to idolatry, which I again believe is forbidden for Jews and very bad for everyone else.

It certainly seems like it's only Catholics who believe things like a burned spot on a piece of toast or taco shell is the image of Jesus and puts them in shrines in their homes.

Whisper:

1.  We could go from the love, mercy, or grace angle.  He's the God of all of this and he chose to use these attributes in the salvation of man. 

2.  I'm not sure I understand your second question.  Are you saying where does man's sacrifice come into play? 

3.  To show us the way.  Picture a trash barrel with maggots crawling around the bottom of the barrel.  They have no idea how to get out of that deep hole so they just crawl around the bottom of it having no idea.  Then comes one maggot that climbs up and out to pave the way.  Once they see the one, they now know there is a way out if they so choose to follow.  Jesus became a maggot by putting on human flesh.  He lowered himself into the deep recesses of the earth and said "follow me."  Some do, some don't.  Some are quite content to stay at the bottom of the trash can.  It's all they know and it's comfortable for them. 

I believe the Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity and part of the Godhead.  Jesus called the Holy Spirit a comforter that he would send after he left. 

I believe the Holy Spirit is a Person as the Father and Son are Persons.  He has a mind.  He searches out the human mind.  He has a will.  He forbids.  He permits.  He speaks.  He loves, he grieves and He prays. 

Leauki

He may not in Judaism meaning their traditions but he does in their scriptures.  Look at the three men who visited Abraham.  One was God.  Look at  the King of Salem Melchizedek.  Who do you think he was? 

God doesn't have an equal.  Quite right.   There is only ONE God.  You  just don't understand the concept of the Christian God which is ONE God revealed in Three Persons.   The trinity can be seen in the OT as well as the NT but again Christ revealed it to us and if you don't accept him, you can't grasp it.  The best way I can put it down is the OT is revealed in the NT and the NT is concealed in the OT. 

Are the Jews returning today?  How do you think that has happened?  Are you aware there are more Jews in their homeland today than ever before...for the first time in history?  What do you think about that?  The rebuilding of the Temple will be next..trust me.  But the peace part will not be until Jesus returns the second time.  There are so many prophecies concerning the first coming (I'd have to look up how many) but each one of them did come true exactly as predicted.  There are MORE prophecies concerning the second coming (I think 300) that have not been fulfilled yet.  They will. 

He's God in the flesh and while I know you can't accept that right now.  You will.  If you read your prophets and writings very carefully you'd see Jesus all thru them.  The problem is the Jews have rationalized them all away and have their own explanations but keep in mind there are many Jews who do recognize and do see that their scriptures did speak of Christ and are now called Messianic Jews like my faithful Jewish Teachers I've brought to your attention. 

hey, don't group all Christians here.  I'm a Christian but we do not have all this.  In fact I had two Bulgarian girls come to our church coming from an Eastern Orthodox background.  One girl said to the other "how do they pray with no icons?"  The other girl said "they pray by faith."  That's it in a nutshell. 

but how can you in your right mind say this?  You've said he's not God and he's not the Son of God because God has no equal right?  What kind of "good" teacher would say such things?  But this teacher did.  Can he really a good teacher to you if he says such things? 

He knew the scriptures as tho he wrote them himself (he did).  The teachers of his day were amazed at his knowledge starting at the age of 12. 

Oh I would love to see you come to Christ and recognize him as the Messiah but it's not my job to convert anyone.  I don't try to convert only teach.  All I can do is show you the water.  I can't make you drink.  I'm just a begger, as they say, who found the bread source and want to share what I have with others so they too may live. 

Thanks Leauki for the compliment but I do want to clarify.  Most of the time with you I would probably disagree with you the same as I do with Lula in the fact that you rely heavy on Jewish tradition in the same way she does with the RCC tradition.  Traditions are fine as far as they don't contradict scripture.  But I see in the Talmud, Mishna and the RCC Catechism that these traditions sometimes supercede the word of God and that's when we have our disagreements.  If you just stayed with your Torah, Prophets and Writings we would probably agree more than disagree.  As a biblical scholar and Christian I absolutely believe the NT and the Jewish Scriptures are like a right and left handed glove.  We need to be in the OT to understand the NT much like you need to see the beginning of the movie to really understand the ending.  Much of the NT is quotes from the OT.  Jesus constantly referred to the OT writings.  He validated almost every single book of the OT. 

Where are you getting this?  While I agree that God's message is included for all peoples and walks I'm getting the message that you are saying God had other prophets outside of the Jewish ones?  And that Judaism teaches that? 

maybe not now, but it will.  Christ came for his own first.  His own disowned him so he turned to the Gentiles but he's coming back and when he does he's coming for the Jews and this time their eyes will be wide open.  Their scriptures even say so. 

Jesus was sinless.  We are not.  So that can't be true Whisper.  The whole point of his coming was to show us the way in our following him but even then we can't pay the penalty because it's too great for the human flesh to pay.  The only way is by our blood but since our blood is sin tainted it's not acceptable.  You have to really understand the OT book of Leviticus to really grasp this. 

Starting right from the garden with the first animal that was killed for Adam and Eve God was showing the only way was thru a blood sacrifice. 

By one man (Adam) sin entered the world and death by sin and so death was passed on to all men for all have sinned.  Because of one man's disobedience we all were made sinners.  Adam represented us and was considered our federal head in that all were connected to Adam.  That is until Christ came into the picture.    Unlike Adam Christ was obedient right up until death so all that believe and follow Christ are now connected to him as he represents us.  He didn't just pave the way..he paid the penalty that should have been ours to pay. 

So it comes down to the fact that we either accept or reject Christ as our Federal head.  If we reject, then Adam remains our representative in the fact that we are still carrying the sin of Adam.  God will not allow sin to live with him in eternity.  He will cast anything sinful away from his sight.   So either he sees us as covered in the blood of Christ as we go thru the door or he sees us outside the door not protected.  Remember..... to Cain God said "sin lies outside the door." 

The race doesn't start tho until we're signed up.  The race starts after we've been recruited or accepted to run the race in the first place. 

What you're talking about is AFTER salvation not before it.  We're not running to win salvation.  We're staying the course and keeping our eyes on the goal as you said.  What is the goal?  The goal is to be in the will of God and not to stray to the right or the left but stay straight.  The goal is to hear "well done good and faithful servant" at the end of the race. 

Ok I agree with your first sentence...and your second.  But your becoming a Christian by (water) Baptism makes no sense when you search the scriptures.  It also doesn't make sense just if you look at it realistically.  That water in John 3 is not baptism water as you think it is.  Makes no sense.  Why couldn't it mean....unless you are born in water (human birth) and of the spirit (spiritual birth)?  Many believe that's what Jesus was talking about by the context  with Nicodemus (how can a person enter the womb a second time?)  and that at least makes more sense when you put scriptures together.  I happen to think Jesus is talking about the water of the word but that's just my belief and that also would fit with the plain reading of the other scriptures.  You have to ignore Eph 2:8-9 for it to be what you want it to be and also the fact that the thief never got down off that cross to get baptized. 

Jesus said "except a man be born of water and of the Spirit he CANNOT enter into the Kingdom of God."  He's not going to contradict his word.  He NEVER does that.  So how do you explain the thief on the cross?  If it's as you say that water baptism is needed for salvation?   What about all those who trusted Christ but never made it to the baptismal pool?  Oh well?  Shoulda got dunked!   But then you have all the Mafia who were notoriously evil or Hitler who were baptized in water.  They get the pass but the true genuine humble man who never made it to the pool of water goes to hell?  See how it makes no practical sense Lula? 

What you're saying is anyone who gets baptized in water is a Christian.  That isn't just untrue but bad theology.  I showed you by using Simeon for one.  Peter turned and rebuked this man as one rebukes Satan.   BUT HE WAS BAPTIZED!  Judas also...had his feet washed.  He was called the son of perdition which is another name for Son of Satan...but had his feet washed.  Satan even entered into him after this footwashing. 

Over the years Catholics have secretly baptized infants when their parents didn't know.  Does that make them Christian?  During WWII I'm sure this went on alot when the well meaning Catholics helped saved some Jewish children from the Nazis.  Hitler was baptized.  Does that make him Christian?

See how this just doesn't make sense even in the practical without bringing up the scripture into it? 

lula posts:

leauki posts 580

Yes, I'll be the first to admit that I don't know that much about modern Judaism (which was established by man after 70AD) nor the modern state of Isreal, but they are not the ones my statement was referring to.

As for me personally, I hold that a Jew is a believer in the teachings of Moses, the lawgiver of Biblical Judaism. Biblical Judaism was established by God for a particular mission....to bring people to God and to exist under certain ideals. that mission, once Jewish, ended with the coming of Jesus the Messias. With His coming began the mission of a very specific Christianity, to bring the world to God and so it will remain until the end of the world, as the Messias said.

Vallentine's Jewish Encyclopedia rejects the idea of Jews being called "a nation" as it permits a contradiction in terms as an Atheist Jew, and a Christian Jew. And I think this is a correct observation for if the Jews are a nation, and everybody born of Jewish parents is a Jew, then you have pantheist Jews, like Einstein, atheist-Jews and Christian Jews.

The religion of Abraham, Issaac, Jacob and Moses (what I call Biblical Judaism that God revealed as a certain worship, faith, and way of life) doesn't exist anymore. It ended in 70AD.

Catholics claim that their religion (Catholicism) is the only religion of God that has existed during the Christian ages just as Biblical Judaism was the only religion of God before Christ. There can be but one Infinite God and so there cannot be more than one religion of God's making. (Modern Judaism of not of God's making.)

The very existence of hundreds of organized religions, including modern Judaism, all claiming to be of of God are, inferentially, a denial of the One-ness of God.  God is Absolute, Eternal Truth, and does not contradict Himself, as do all the varying religions. For example, God  didn't tell the chosen children of the OLd Dispensation that "the Lord thy GOd is one God" and then contradict Himself by telling the Zoroastrians that there are two Gods, one of good and the other of evil, which Isias condemned 45:5-7.

God the Father didn't say to the chosen people of the New Dispensation, through His only begotten Son that salvation depends on being unified in Christ through Baptism and then contradict Himself and then tell the Quakers, etc. that Baptism is not essential.  Such a contradictory Personage would not be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, in fact He would not be God.

At any given time, the world has only had one religion of God's making. That religion was Biblical Judaism, pure and unadulterated set forth in the Torah (first 5 books of Moses) and other inspired prophetical writings in the OT as well as based upon Oral Law called Tradition.

That religion contained potentially, Christianity, the religion that replaced it after the Temple in Jerusalem, it's priesthood, sacrifices, etc. was no more. In Biblical Judaism, the only religion revealed by God before Christ, there was the promise, Christ and the family of David from which Christ was to come and did come. Judaism contained a priesthood of Aaron and Mosaic sacrifices in pre-Christian times that the Old Testament said would be displaced, as it has been ----with a priesthood without geneology, and a "clean oblation" in place of the bloody oblations of OLd.  See Malachais.

Therefore, Catholics hold our religion with its Christ instituted priesthood and sacrifice, to be Biblical Judaism not replaced, but full-blossomed.