You're both right.  Jesus spoke as Lula says but also, especially in this instance, they didn't understand until afterwards.  But Mason is wrong when he says that Christ never spoke of his sacrifice directly.  He did.  I'm trying to find a particular verse in which he said it "bluntly or directly."  It even used one of those words but I'll have to look for it.  

But there are many scriptures which show he did speak directly.  They may have or may not have understood him all the time because their thoughts were running in a diff direction.  He was there to liberate them, not die for them. 

Here's a few (out of many more)  to think about :

"From that time forth began Jesus to show his disciples how that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes and be killed and be raised again the third day."  Matt 16:21

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness (on a pole) even so must the Son of man be lifted up."  John 3:14

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth will draw all ment to me."  This he said signifiying what death he should die."  John 12:32

"That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled which he spoke, signifying what death he should die."  18:32 

I've given you the scriptures above.  The burden of proof now is on you to show me where it says in scripture they were born in sin.  If they weren't under the law what were they?  What is grace? 

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.  Where in scripture does it say this was only a lesson?  Where in scripture does it say this wasn't literal?  Christ himself affirmed this account by mentioning it as if it were a literal account. 

So the fact that God would throw them out of the garden for this one act shows they did something that separated them from God that wasn't there before.  We know that sin separates us from God right?  Like you said, an offense against God right?    You're saying that God created them with this sin separateion right from the get go when the clear reading of scripture does not indicate this at all.   Their separation from God came about AFTER they disobeyed thereby bringing in sin into the mix for the first time. 

You're way out in left field Mason with this one.   

well you keep telling me I'm not biblical or that I'm out of context when I'm the one sharing and backing up what I'm saying.  I never make a claim (or try not to) without first being able to back it up.   I've spent more than 30 years studying this from just about every angle.  I've heard it all.  In your description above, I agree with you.  But that's not what I was inferring and I think you know it.    I think you know me well enough to know that I do come from a biblical perspective.  Howbeit you may just not agree and that's fine.   I can agree to disagree. 

Actually NOT taken out of context but yes it does have to do with service.  Regarding Chap 12 of Romans...the first two verses have to do with service, yes but in relation to ourselves.  The third verse (the one I quoted) is part of a section going to v8 that has to do with service in relation to the church.  V9 to the end of the chapter has to do with service in relation to society. 

So yes, service is in view.  But that doesn't negate the fact that it's God who deals to every man a measure of faith.  Faith is needed for our continuing in the work of God.  Like Lula and I have been discussing there is a relationship to faith and works. 

My point was that our faith comes from God.  Heb 12:2 bears this out as well.  Jesus said "without me you can do nothing."  How true.  With faith we can move mountains, without it we can move nothing.   All good gifts come from God, not from ourselves.  All we really really have to offer God is our service but it all stems from the heart.  So to back that up...all we have to offer God is our heart. 

I went back and changed it after.  You must have missed it.  Good catch and I'm impressed you looked it up.   

I say the same Mason, only I'm more wretched than you because I'm not even good enough to lift my head to choose him.

Remember that parable about the two who were praying?...one said "thank you God that I'm not like the rest of these?"  and the other who said "Oh God forgive me I'm just a sinner."  

When you say you were smart enough, strong enough, faithful enough,good enough, alive enough (fill in the blank)  to choose him you are boasting you are better than those who feel  it's all of God like me.   

See that's what I mean...you can boast.  I can't.  Because I did nothing to deserve it.  At least you can say you did because you reached up.  I'm saying I'm dead in the water...God reached down to me.   The minute you say you've done anything, it's a work.  The question again I ask you, how do we come to belief when we are dead in our sins?   How can we regenerate ourselves?   What can a dead man do?  Why does it say that God opened Lydia's heart so that she may believe?  Just exactly what it said in Ezekiel when he spoke about the Jews. 

Look at this will ya...we're arguing over who is more wretched! 

You were giving me lots of viewpoints but nothing to back it up.  That's what I called them Masonisms like Adam being a sinner from birth.  That's a Masonism and not a biblical viewpoint. 

Later when you explained to me the nature inside Adam, I can agree somewhat with what you're saying there.  In Adam, God gave him that capacity to sin.  I don't have a problem with that.  Obviously that is a fact.  He sinned.  He had that ability to do so.  But where we separate is when you tell me that Adam was born a sinner or that he had a sin nature.  He did not.  He had the capacity of freewill and with that came the ability to sin.  That's not the same as being born a sinner. 

I've actually got tapes from radio programs dating way back dealing with usually heated debates over freewill vs election.  Ever hear of the Bible Answer Man for one?   Anyhow every single time, the one who is the Freewiller gets angry.  Every singele time.   I've seen it in person as well, not always the one being involved.   There's a reason for this, in my opinion and I've already told you that. 

Back along, Liberty University (which I have a two year bible degree) which takes the freewill position set up a debate with a strong Election believer.  When it got closer, LU backed out.  They essentially, without giving all the details got cold feet.  Now I went there, my two kids went there and I think they are a great University.  But I don't believe their position is correct.  In fact, some of their Professors are very election minded and disagree with the stance of the University.   As a whole the University has taken this freewill approach.  It's easier to deal with for one thing.  I understand that. 

You're completely wrong here. The egotistical boast of their own actions, it is the one who realizes that he can't help himself and believes God, because that's exactly what God's word tells us. We can't do it on our own, we can only do it by choosing to turn to God for help. Remember what Jesus taught about the Pharisee and the tax collector in Luke 18? What did Jesus say about the tax collector?  That tax collector chose to humble himself and ask God for mercy, sincerely and with belief.

Where in scripture does it say that John 10:9, where Jesus said "I am the door" (or gate in NIV) wasn't literal. Are we to assume that Jesus was some boards, nails, and hinges and not a man? You're getting quite silly now. You know as well as I do that not every passage in the scriptures was meant to be literal, but they do not contain disclaimers that state "Caution, not to be taken literally". Give me a break.

As you are going to take the route of absurdity in your arguments at this point I am done with this. I refuse to try and hold a serious discussion with someone who resorts to such stupidity in their argument. It's beyond insulting.

MasonM,

You, KFC and I know it but that doesn't mean that others reading this necessarily do. Just covering the bases. Nothing wrong with that.

MasonM posts:

KFC,

Yes, predestination is a part of God's plan and it is a puzzling doctrine. God has worked out everything according to His own Pleasure and Will and since God is Perfect, nothing escapes His notice or plan. But by "elect", what God foreknows doesn't mean He forecauses. 

Romans 8 ties predestination to our on-going justification.  Verse 28 assures us that we can know what happens is for our own good and that's comforting and why we don't have the fear or worry that you describe in your original article..it's not becasue we are assured of salvation or have what you call "eternal security".

Again, and this can't be stressed enough...we are all created human with free will...and the basic requirement of free will is that we are not programmed to make certain choices  nor does God force a certain choice upon us, otherwise we wouldn't be free.

The first test of man's free will occurred in the Garden of Paradise by Adam and Eve. Adam was created unencumbered by the effects of sin and physical deterioration that have plagued mankind ever since. Adam still needed God's grace for his existence and God gave them sufficient grace to resist the Devil and temptation to sin. They both sinned of their own free will.

God gave them a test of faithfulness and they failed. By grace, God gave them the ability to choose the right path, and had they obeyed, the test would have been over and God would have allowed them to live upon Earth in anticipation of a final consummation in which they would have gone straight to Heaven without "dying" first. But we know the story, they shunned God's grace wanting to be like Him, and sinned.

St. Paul said in Acts 17:25-27 to all those who came after the sin of Adam..."nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything. And He made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation. That they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after Him and find Him. Yet, He is not far from each one of us,.."

KFC posts:

Yes, Adam and Eve were under God's grace and when they sinned, they fell from it, but not in an obstinate way for they soon thereafter acknowledged their sin and were sorrowful and ashamed...and God forgave them.

Their fall had to do with disobedience and had they not repented and been forgiven, they would have died and gone to Hell with Satan and the other demons who had disobeyed God.

What does "choosing their birth" have to do with anything? They were created with an intellect, reasoning power and free will. They were given God's grace to resist temptation, but failed. 

Same thing with us who are baptized..we are given God's sanctifying grace to resist the temptation to sin, but often times fail. If we do not repent and seek forgiveness and choose to remain or to commit sin,  then God withdraws His Grace from us, and if we die with our souls in the state of grevious sin, we will be judged and sent to Hell. 

Life is a journey and we must persevere in the faith resisting temptation to sin all the way.

They started out under a sufficient amount of God's grace, but they lost it when they sinned. Yes, God is faithful and full of mercy and will forgive us just as He did them. That's one of the lessons we can take from Adam and Eve. The key is that we must want forgiveness and seek it and be truly repentant of our sins and want to sin no more. By Christ's death,  God gives us His Grace to do this..and we must accept it.

This is overboard literalism.

In effect, we "choose" God or not every moment of our lives just by trying to know, love and serve Him to the best of our ability or not.

By believing in, loving and obeying God, we are in effect "choosing God" and by not believing in Him, or disobeying Him and His Laws we are choosing evil, which is as far away from choosing God as it gets.

We essentially "choose God" or not every moment of our lives..with every decsion we make...and it has nothing to do with being 'regenerated" or "born again"...in my case, baptized. 

We can choose God in our sinful flesh. I'm a sinner and I choose God.

What is the chapter and verse?

KFC posts:

Oh, c'mon? Again, you're being overly literalist.

I agree. The first humans to commit sin were Adam and Eve...that's why it's called Original Sin. By their sin they immediately separated themselves from God and they were ashamed and hid.

Until then, they were forbidden to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. It was only after they had transgressed God's command that they would learn by a sad and terrible experience the difference between good and evil.

So, God wasn't at all partial toward the Israelites in the Old Testament, who He decided to make His chosen nation for some unknown reason?  It's not like they deserved to be recognized any more than we did.

God can and does play favorites, and He's perfectly fair in doing so.  He made everything, He owns everything, so He can do whatever He wants with it.

No we can't.  If you think cloning is creating life, you need to do more research.  The idea that we can create life is a myth perpetuated by abiogenesis advocates (who 99.9% of the time are also evolutionists).  One example would be the Miller-Urey (sp?) experiment that supposedly created amino acids necessary for life.

Well, let's see:

Obvious misreading of my post (comment #238).  I never said it was a numbers game.  That was definitely a point missed.

Notice that I addressed the end of verse 14 already.

So based on what I wrote and how you responded, I can only conclude that you didn't really read it.

A myth is not a lie.

so the answer to my question is you can't find any scripture that shows us that we choose God for rebirth? 

What you're mentioning here is obedience.  I have no problem with that.  I actually agree with much you have to say here.  But that's not what we're discussing.  We're discussing choosing God in the first place; choosing him in the salvation process.  Time and time again, I keep showing you it's God who does this not us.  We can't choose to be "born again."  In your case (baptism) you didn't choose to be baptized even.  Only AFTER he calls us to himself can we do any type of choosing God over the world.  God takes that first step in opening our eyes and ears to him.  Our sin is such that we can't see or hear him until then. 

Paul writes in Romans "where sin abounds grace abounds more."  We can't outsin God's grace.  We don't lose God's grace.  We may fall out of fellowship with him but we don't lose our grace or salvation in him no more than our children stop being part of our family because they sin against us.  In his good time, he calls us back.  Fellowship restored, but we never lose our family status with Him. 

 I think we're talking two diff things.  There might be a mix up here between what I'm thinking and what you're thinking. 

There's the time when we first come to Christ and become saved (born again) and then after that we come to him for foot washing only, after already being bathed completely in his forgiveness, mercy and grace.   That's when we first came to the cross.  That's how I see Adam and Eve.  They were already bathed.  They had only to come to him in repentance as a child of God for having sinned against God...similar to David and Peter for instance.  That's what Jesus' lesson was about in John 13 when he washed the disciples feet.  They didn't need a full washing because they were already bathed.  They only needed their feet cleansed representing the fact that we walk in a dirty sinful world and in need of a cleaning now and then.  When so, we know who to go to. 

It is a puzzling doctrine in some sense but in others it makes perfect sense.  It's more than God just foreknowing tho because he says so.  It's quite obvious it has to do with his purposes, not ours.  Take a good look at Eph 1 for instance.  Notice how many times it says we are predestined and being so because of his good will.  It also says He chose us at the beginning of the world already.  So we were not only forknown by Him but also chosen by him before the world began. 

We don't know the whys.  We just know what he's revealing to us.  That's all we can go by.  We can assume' make an educated guess but that's all it would be.

I've sat under some freewill teachers and when they get to passages like Eph 1 and others they stammer a bit and admit that there is some election here and are basically for a loss of words.  I've got a tape from my studies at LU and I was amused listening to this very good and Godly freewiller teacher try to get around these passages.  He pretty much admitted here that God is in the election business.   J. Vernon McGee is the same way.  You can pick up his commentary  "Thru the Bible" and see his writings right now and see also his difficulty when he gets to certain election passages.

Oh I can give you plenty.  That particular one is John 15:16,19

"You have NOT chosen me but I have chosen you and ordained you that you should go and bring forth fruit and that your fruit should remain that whatsoever you shall ask of the Father in my name he may give it to you. 

If you were of the world the world would love his own but because you are not of the world but I have CHOSEN you out of the world, therefore the world hates you."  

I've already brought up his prayer in Chap 17 in how that he prays NOT for the world but only those chosen out of the world.

But here's a bunch more for you to look up. 

"Has not God chosen the poor of the world" James 2:5

"God from the beginning has chosen you,"  2 Thess 2:13

"According as he has chosen us in him"  Eph 1:4

"God has chosen the foolish things of this world"  1 Cor 1:27

"God of the fathers has chosen you."  Acts 22:!4

"I know whom I have chosen"  John 13:18

Now for your point to be valid John would have had to say that last one, not Christ.  John didn't say that.  Jesus did. 

in obedience maybe...after the fact.  But you did not choose God for salvation (regeneration/rebirth).  You can't.  Christ said "you must be born again"  He then goes on to show how it's the work of the Holy Spirit (God).  It's not of us.  Our work starts AFTER that. 

Now you are violating your own principles.  Remember context, context context?  What does John 10 have to do with the fact that Genesis is literal or not?  I agree that not every passage in scriptures is literal.  So no debate from me on that one.  But how do you know and who told you that Genesis is NOT literal?  Does it say "once upon a time?"  No.  Did Christ treat it as literal when he brought up several instances in Genesis including Adam and Eve?  Yes.  Do we have any indication that anything in Genesis is NOT to be taken literally?  No.  It reads like a true accouting of history. 

To say Genesis is not literal in just certain parts is not consistent.  The first chapters of Genesis is written as a historical narrative.  What about the rest of the characters and events of Genesis?  What about the lineage that starts with Adam, Eve, Cain and Seth?  How do we reconcile them if Genesis is just a made up story?  The lines start with Seth and Cain.  Are they real but their parents are imaginary?  If so, who were their parents?  See where this is going Mason? 

No, the only silly one (and cantakerous) here is you.  You're being quite silly and argumentative!  You remind me of one of my teenagers right about now. 

I'm absurd?  Stupid?  You're not giving me anything.  Why?   Because I believe Genesis is literal?  So instead of coming up with a good answer Mason, you attack?  I've given you fair honest biblical answers to your questions.  I'm afraid you can only see what you're looking for in the first place.    I'm not giving you what you want to hear.  I know that. 

You have to remember that what we are discussing here are NOT essentials and it's certainly not worth arguing over. 

So let's shake and make up!  [e digicons]:karma:[/e]