Really?  How can I misunderstand when I read these scriptures and hundreds more like them?  I'll gladly discuss each in context.  How do you explain this? 

"According as HE has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.  Eph 1:3-4

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."  Acts 13:48

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate....moreover whom he did predestinate them he also called, and whom he called them he also justified and whom he justified them he also glorified."  Romans 8:29-30

What then?  Israel has not obtained that which he seeks for; but the election has obtained it, and the rest were blinded."  Rom 11:7

You may also want to check out the salutation of a few of the letters in the new testament written to the"elect." 

Love is both an emotion and an acton word.  I think Mother Teresa said it best:  "don't just stand there, love with your hands" to the person who looked ahead at the slum before her. 

True but these two were under some sort of Grace.    Remember, they were unique.   They were not under the law because the law had not yet been given.  The law came about as a result of this falling into sin.   They had something no one ever had.  They were put in the garden under the grace of God no different than it will be for us one day when we are completely restored.   Grace is unmerited favor.  They had that from God and it had nothing to do with what they deserved.  They had a relationship with God in an intimate way.  I mean God even breathed mouth to mouth with Adam, nothng more intimate than that. 

Their fall had to do with obedience not salvation.  The rebelled against God.    They did not chose their birth.  They chose to rebel against God AFTER their birth.  As Christians, we do the same thing from time to time.  Even tho, we're born again, we, on occasion, rebel against God. 

You're on the right track in comparing them with us, but it's off a wee bit.  What we see with Adam and Eve are two children of God under His Grace and completely covered with His righteousness.  We sin even under God's grace, yet he's faithful, loving and full of mercy to forgive us just like he did to the two of them. 

A choice to obey or not obey.  It has nothing to do with our regeneration.  Show me anywhere in scripture where it tells us to "choose God."  I can give you quite a long list where it says "God chooses" but not us choosing God.  We are called to be obedient but nowhere does it say that I know of that we choose God.  We can't in our sinful flesh.  Like I keep saying, we are blind, deaf and dumb to God until he first regenerates us.  Until then we, are dead and dead men can't choose. 

I've given you plenty.   The ego is coming from those who believe they are the ones holding the steering wheel. They are the ones proclaiming control.  They are not giving the controls to God.  They are denying his sovereignty.   They are the ones who believe they are choosing God.  Christ said it quite clearly, "you did not choose me, I chose you." 

Again, you're inflating yourself here.  To insult me, Mason isn't proving your case. 

Where does faith come from?  Aren't you asuming it's coming from us?  What does it mean when it says that Christ is the "author and finisher of our faith?"  What did Paul mean when he said this:

"For I say thru the grace given to me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith."  Rom 12:3

or what did he mean in his letter to the Philipians when he said: 

"Being confident of this very thing, that HE which has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus."   1:6

What work?  Notice who's doing the work here?  It was the same in the OT. 

Back in Ezekiel God promised the disobedient Jews that someday he would restore them back to himself.  Notice what he said to them about that future day. 

"For I will take you from among the heathen and gather you out of all countries and will bring you into your own land.  Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you and you shall be clean; from all your fithiness and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.  A new heart also will I give you and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stoney heart out of your flesh and I will give you a heart of flesh.  And I will put my spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes and you shall keep my judgements and do them.  And you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and you shall be my people and I will be your God.  I will also save you from all your uncleannesses and I will call for the corn and will increase it and lay no famine upon you......Not for your sakes do I do this, says the Lord God......Ezek  36:24-32

God's MO hasn't changed.  We see the same in the NT.  It's all God.  It's not us.  Notice who's doing all the work?  It's God's work.  Our work is to be obedient to a merciful God who regenerated us and saved us from evil.  Why is he doing this?  Not for our purpose but for His. 

In your POV it's all about us.  In my POV it's all about God.  Therein lies the debate. 

All good gifts are from God.  Even faith.  God says elsewhere that when we can't be faithful he's faithful to us. 

Nothing?  And you keep saying I'm misinterpreting scripture?  You've got to be kidding me!!  That's a ridiculous statement Mason.  I'm actually surprised you said this. 

You haven't given me one scripture to back up one thing you're saying.  I'm seeing alot of Masonisms coming thru.  No wonder you don't agree with the Pastors of the churches you attend.  You keep bringing up ego.  Could it be that you're sensitive about your own? 

back to your comment.  Of course scripture states that Adam was born sinless.  We know that after God created he looked back and considered it all good.  He would not have said that for one thing if he birthed Adam in sin.  Sin doesn't come from God.  Sin comes from our own freewill.   We are free to choose to obey or not obey. 

We also know that God told Adam that the day he eats from the tree he would die.  That's when sin entered the world.  Not when he was born.  Adam was NOT born a sinner. 

"Wherefore as by one man, sin entered into the world and death by sin and so death passed upon all men for that all have sinned...For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."   Romans 5:12,19

Sin means to "miss the mark" to "overstep forbidden line."  We know that happened in the Garden when the first couple overstepped their line drawn in the sand by God. 

Now notice what I underlined.  We inherited sin from Adam and just like we inherited sin from Adam (no fault of our own) so too will we inherit righteousness (not because of what we do) from the only one who was righteous. 

So only Christ was righteous, but Adam was sinless?

It does make sense to this whole discussion.  What I'm trying to get across to you Mason is the fact that God chooses us via his election process (scripture already given) and we have no choice in that matter.  Christ said one has to be born again.  We can't give birth to ourselves.  It has to be supernatural.  That's what Nicodemus (John 3) was having such a hard time understanding like you are here.  Adam and Eve had no choice in this birth.  They were chosen to live with God forever.  The perfect plan was that God would create a people for his own will to love and be loved by them. 

But, he gave them freewill because a love forced is not a love at all.  In their freewill they chose to disobey and sin entered the world.  But an all knowing omnicient God knew this would happen.  He had a plan put in place to redeem man from the very beginning knowing that in our freewill we would rebel against him. 

Each one of us came into the faith at a certain point in time after living in rebellion against God.  Some earlier and some later.  The bible is clear that we are dead in our sins.  So God in his provision started to tap those he elected one by one by regenerating us like I showed you earlier with the promise to the Jews.  He opened minds, hearts and ears.  We were all heading to destruction but in his grace and mercy he saved some.  Not all.   That's what Grace and Mercy are all about..."there but the grace of God go I" is said by the many who understand this concept. 

Someday, when all that is entered into God's plan of redemption is finished (and I believe that is soon) we will totally get it.  We will look back at history and where sin brought us and not ever want to go back especially after being restored in perfect harmony once again like in the days of Adam and Eve.   We will truly be able to love God with our whole heart, mind and soul freely knowing completely what he did for us.  Adam and Eve didn't quite get it.  They didn't understand exactly how the whole sin thing would totally corrupt their relationship, not only with God, but with each other as well.  

They had no idea the love that God had for them.  They had no idea that God would sacrifice himself on their behalf so great was that love.  Something to think about...obedience is easy if motivated by love.  What they didn't see and couldn't get we now can see and understand. 

Had they known what we now know looking back (20/20 hindsight) they never would have disobeyed God in the first place. 

Adam was only sinless for a brief time.  It was he who brought sin into the world by his disobedience.  Sin, pure and simple  is rebellion against God.

Christ was born, lived and died sinless.  So by his righteousness (totally sin free)  we, who believe, are imputed with his righteousness and are washed clean in the eyes of God.   Not because of what WE DO...but because of what HE DID. 

So this god drove out all the other gods then created man because he was lonely?

If I was a god, I think I would rather keep the company of other gods, rather than flawed humans.

KFC POSTS:

MM POSTS:

I agree we believe in God or deny Him by choice. He won't force us to believe or love Him.

Christ succeeded in accomplishing His mission. His purpose was to give mankind the means of salvation, SHOULD THEY CHOOSE TO MAKE USE OF SUCH MEANS. All who sincerely wish to be saved can be saved. Meantime, even God cannot endow a man with freewill who has to do the right thing in spite of himself.That would be the end of freedom, of morality and of merit.

Salvation would then be a necessity and man would no longer conform to the very definition of being free.

God freely offers His gifts of faith and grace and we are free to respond...to accept His gifts or reject them.

MasonM,

I agree that Scripture does not support the concept of "election" because everyone has free will. Christ taught certain truths and demands we accept them as a tribute to His knoweldge and veracity. We are free to accept them becasue of our faith in Him or refuse them.

Again, with the help of GOd's grace, which will not be refused if one desires it, anyone is able to believe in Christ and His teachings.

what other gods? 

Mmm, I would say the pre-christian Gods that humankind created out of their own desire to make sense of the world. (the "Sun god" was one.) I could be off, but that comes to mind when I read it.

"God" is not his name.

Let's be clear that when Jesus spoke of rebuilding the temple in three days, He was referring to His own Body as the temple which would be destroyed by His death on the Cross and then He would rise again 3 days later.

Again I ask you to point to the specific scripture that states Adam and Eve were born sinless and in grace.

Genesis makes no such claim, people infer it. God knew exactly what He was doing when He created Man. As physical beings they are incapable of the level of perfection required to be like God. The whole story is meant to teach that Man can't attain righteousness on his own. It isn't a literal accounting, it's a lesson to be learned to lay the groundwork for the rest of the scriptures.

By the way the word sin literally means offense.

Again, out of context. In context:

NIV

¹Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual^[a] act of worship. ²Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

 ³For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

Or the KJV

 ¹I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

 ²And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

 ³For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Taken in context this has nothing to do with 'election", but with humility and service.

No, I'm not kidding you at all. Point to the specific scripture that states that Adam was born sinless. If he had been created without the possibility of sinning against God in his nature there would have been no need to present the choice of "eat or don't eat" to him. The very fact that this choice was presented demonstrates that the ability to sin was present in his created nature.

You seem to believe that the nature and ability to sin is somehow present in our nature through inherited sin but not in Adam and this is proven by Genesis to not be the case. His nature was exactly the same as our own, it's the price of having the ability to make our own choices instead of being puppets. "Inherited sin" or "original sin" refer to our natures as human beings, and Adam certainly was a human being. That is what the Genesis story is meant to teach.

Exactly, and Adam had exactly that ability, which was proven out. "Born in sin" refers to being born with that nature, which even Adam had. His nature from birth was exactly the same as ours, in every way. The point of "being born in sin" is that we are powerless to rise above our own nature without the help of God.

Ummm, actually this is Ezekiel 36:24 - 32, not Ezekiel 24:32.

This is God speaking to Israel, through Ezekiel and deals with, as the last phrase indicates, God's ultimate plan for our salvation. It has nothing to do with salvation via election. The fact that God chose israel as Vehicle is hardly news, but has nothing to do with salvation through Christ being reserved for only those He has chosen to receive it.

The bottom line is that if we have to do nothing at all, as in make a choice, Christ would not have needed to die on the cross in the first place. The words on John 3 are quite clear

KJV

¹⁴And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

 ¹⁵That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

 ¹⁶For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 ¹⁷For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

 ¹⁸He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 ¹⁹And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

 ²⁰For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

 ²¹But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

NIV:

¹⁴Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, ¹⁵that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

 ¹⁶"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. ¹⁷For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. ¹⁸Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. ¹⁹This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. ²⁰Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. ²¹But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

³⁶Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

In all of these passages, the word believe means more than just mental belief, but action. One is to believe His words are truth and actually follow them.

You haven't seen me quote very many individual verses of scripture simply because I view the scriptures as a whole, in context, instead of picking and choosing out of context verses to try and support a viewpoint. I presented a few above which clearly state the obvious choice with which we are presented, but even those are out of context. The entire bible from beginning to end presents the matter of choosing to all of us. That is the whole point of it all.

Remember, until some time in the 13th century the verses weren't numbered at all. They were meant to be read in context as part of a whole. They were later renumbered in the 16th century and are what we see to this day, and often cause a loss of context for those who read individual verses instead of the entire section of text as originally intended. This is why I do not often quote individual verses, their meaning is often lost or invalid when taken out of context as so many seem to like to do.

I see, so when one explains their viewpoint it's an "ism"? Interesting viewpoint you have there. I can understand why you say people often get angry with you. If reading text in full context and thus actually understanding what was written, and then explaining that understanding to another, is an "ism" then I am all for it. My views do not come from a hit and miss study of individual out of context verses, but rather through a long study of the entire text in full as it was intended to be read and understood.

Or is it just those things which which you disagree are "isms"?

You obviously believe that God chose you over millions of other people and so you are somehow superior to them and special. It must be a wonderful thing to be such a special person in the eyes of God, instead of just one of the common people God somehow doesn't want. Seems somewhat reminiscent of Satan's attitude about himself.

Myself, I am just another of the common wretches of the world which God created and am just thankful He provided us the means to escape the ultimate penalty of our own nature. I'm also glad that He made us with the ability to make that choice instead of simply creating a bunch of puppets.

No wonder indeed. Whenever I hear someone begin preaching something that is flatly not biblical I have a problem with it. As I recall, the last one I attended that I had problems with (which is a small percentage of the whole) was a minister who was preaching about how God created different races of people for a reason and that it was His intent that some rule over the others as they were made superior to them. I had a real problem with that. He even quoted some out of context verses to support his ideas (but not many and I don't recall which as I was so angry I got up and left).

I've also been in churches where the minister preached about how their's was the only "true" Christian church and people who belong to any church of any other name were not true Christians and were doomed to Hell. Give me a break!

So yeah, I do have problems with sick churches. If that's my ego, so be it. I know non-biblical teaching when I hear it.

No kidding? Really? Who exactly did you think didn't understand that so you felt the need to explain it?