kfc wrotes:

Which "one" is that?

As far as the Catholic Sacrament of confessing of sins, it's Biblical..Scripture teaches that the confessing of sins is a usual requisite for obtaining forgiveness. Unfortunately, Confession was one of the 7 Sacraments, along with the sacrificial, ministerial priesthood, that Luther threw out when he established Protestantism.

kingbee posts:

KFC POSTS:

This is pure baloney. You obviously do not understand the nature and purpose of the Sacrament of Confession.

This sounds kind of strange...is it biblical? 

Most can tell we are followers of Christ by the way we love one another.

and that's exactly what I'm saying.  Love is an action word.  It's not about emotion.  That can't be seen.  Love is to be put in action.  Love means doing something for someone when you don't necessarily want to.  Love is patient, love is kind, love is doing. 

When we do a good deed for another, we are doing it in love because most of the time it takes us away from what we could be doing for self.  Love is selfless. 

Jesus said, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." Love is doing good works for the greater glory of God.

isn't that what I just said?????

Funny, I always thought love was an emotion. So much for all my psychology classes.

Well said.

Which completely flies in the face of the whole "election" concept, doesn't it?

The idea of "election" stems from a misundertanding of scripture taken out of context, not from scripture itself.

Thanks, but yer wrong here. They weren't in grace in the first place. Nothing in the scriptures says that they were and that's a fatal flaw in your thinking here. Before Christ there was no grace. That's the whole point of the New Testament, which somehow far too many just don't seem to get.

Again, a complete misunderstanding of the scrupture as written. The word righteous is the key here, as is the word understands. This does not proclaim "election" it proclaims the fact that all are lost without accepting the gift of grace throuogh Christ.

There is absolutely no scripture that declares the election idea unless one takes it out of context and miscontrues it's meaning. None.

God gave us all the ability to make a choice, right from the beginning. That is the whole point of Genesis, there is no other. Genesis is the preparation (remember, everything in context and as a whole) for the choice. It presents the fact that we had made wrong choices and the cost of doing so. That is the lesson it teaches. The New Testament presents us the choice yet again (after it was presented many times throughout the Old Testament) and challenges us to choose rightly.

There is nothing at all that proclaims election. That's nothing more than misunderstanding brought about by ego.

Please examine the word faith. It really is the key to this whole thing and seems to be the one you misunderstand here.

You did not come to have faith without choosing to do so. You examined, you studyed, you explored, and ultimately you believed. These are things that you chose to do. I say it again, God does not want robots, he wants those who chose to come to Him. Otherwise it would mean nothing to Him. How much more simple can it be?

By choice. God does NOT select who will believe and who won't. What would be the point ot that? Examine that question carefully. What would be the point? God is not illogical, quite the opposite. Examine the idea of election in light of that single question and you may find just how egotistical that idea truly is.

Yes actually there is a huge difference. Two different missions, two different steps in the plan. It's only ego (or a lack of understanding) that causes some to believe that God chose them over other people. It's sheer nonsense and only serves to elevate (in their minds) those who believe that rubbish. 

Such beliefs come about from subjective reading of the scripture, not from objective reading. One should not allow ego to interpret scripture (or anything else) while reading, which is exactly where this idea came from.

Here you misunderstand what I wrote. Christ never spoke of His sacrifice directly. He taught us what sacrifice meant and of the value of outting others before yourself. He did speak of rebuilding the temple and such, but in a way that it would only be understood after the fact for tha sake of teaching. He never once bragged about it or even spoke of it directly. For good reason as to do so would only serve the ego not God.

I like it.

I agree that anger doesn't have a place in the discussion, but perhaps their anger stemmed from frustration with your misinterpretation of the scriptures themselves? Just a thought. Frankly, I have seen you totally misinterpret many things posted in this thread so it doesn't surprise me that you also misinterpret scriptire. That is not an insult at all, just an observation. It's a very common thing actually. If it weren't we wouldn't have so many denominations, would we?

People often come to a conclusion and then find that which supports it. Even when they don't realize that's what they've done. They can even attribute motives, thoughts, and feelings to other people in an attempt to justify in their minds why those people don't see it as they do. Example:

Unless you can read minds and souls, this comes from your own ego as an attempt to reconcile why they don't see things as you do. Hardly a Godly exercise in my opinion.

Again, there is nothing at all in scripture, in context, that supports election. Nothing at all. Only out of context, misinterpreted verses combined with ego can invent such a concept in an attempt to set one above "those people". It's nothing short of religious bigotry and is hardly a Christian attitude when viewed in that vein.

Please refer to the specific scripture that states this.

Oh wait, there isn't one.

To say Adam was born sinless is to put him on the same level as Christ, which is simply wrong. Nothing in the scripture states this, you made it up (or believed someone else who did).

Not sure what the "didn't chose to be born" thing is about. Makes no sense in the context of the discussion. By your own interpretation, Adam CHOSE to disobey. That is the point. Choice. That's the whole point of that lesson, to be related to the choice presented in the NT. It's obvious and quite simple.

Remember, the ten commandments God gave to Moses were conditions of action, just as was the choice given to Adam and Eve. And once again Man proved incapable of obeying. Don't you see the relation? These lessons lead to the same place. One can't be saved through one's own physical actions, but only by choosing to believe in God and believing that Christ's action on the cross was the only thing that could do it.

In this context the words choice and belief are not simple. They denote that one fully realizes their own nature, and understands that Christ's punishment on the cross is exactly what they themselves deserve, and find grace through gratitude that He chose to suffer that punishment in their stead. One must not simply realize it mentally, but in their very soul. That is the choice presented. It goes far beyong a simple action.

If God simply wanted to choose who would be saved and who wouldn't, what exactly would be the whole point of Christ's tourture in the first place? The idea is just silly.

MM posts:

Good question and the answer is Yes. Not only because God has no "favorites",  but also because, just like Adam and Eve, He gave us free will to know, love and serve Him by obeying His commandments or not. 

KFC posts:

MM posts:

Right. The Jews weren't in grace and therefore can't lose what they didn't have. They would be justified by God though as long as they remained faithful to Him and obedient to His Law and commands...we know how that went.

kfc posts:

mm posts:

Absolutely true, Romans 3 doesn't teach the  "election" concept. 

Right...St.Paul is taking phrases from Psalm 14:1-3 and in his own style uses them to reinforce his teaching that all men sin. Even the best of them dedicated to God like Noah, Abraham, etc. sin.

Only by faith and God's grace can we strive to be sinless..."become perfect". More to the point, your use of the word "accepting" the gift of grace is paramount. God offers His gift of faith and grace and we have free will to accept or reject at any time.That's why our justification is an on-going process throughout life.