Lula to clarify:

back to James once again...go to v14 (your favorite) and read this question:

"What use is it, my brethren if someone says he has faith but he has no works?  Can that faith save him? 

The answer is found in v24 when he answers after giving two examples of Rahab and Abraham:

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" 

 Genuine faith will produce good deeds but only this faith in Christ saves.  Notice he mentions the type of faith a demon has (v19)?  Why is that put right in the middle of all this?  Because the faith here in v14-20,24,26 is not a genuine saving faith.  Rather it is demonic and useless (v20) and dead (v26).  It is mere intellectual acceptance of certain truths without trust in Christ. 

So if you're looking at v14 as a good genuine faith, it's not.  Neither is it in v24.  So this "faith alone" in v24 is not the faith alone I speak about Lula.  In other words I'm looking at this "faith alone" here as a demonic faith meaning an intellectual assent to certain truths.  You have to when you tie it all together in context.  So James is saying "your faith alone" (v24) is not going to save you because this "faith alone" is demonic. 

Notice he brings up Abraham as saved BEFORE he offered up Isaac in v23.  Abraham was "saved" before his works.  Just like I've been saying all along.  First faith, then works.  We are saved by grace thru faith to do good works.  Abraham's work with Isaac "proved" he was saved.  His works were evidence of his faith. 

so what I see in this  whole part of this chapter is this:

1.  The question (v14)

2.  The illustration (v15-17)

3.  The teaching (v18-26)

Lula posts:

kfc posts:

Then, I don't know what you mean by "choosing God for rebirth".

As far as choosing God, yes, we can choose God..we choose to believe or not and we choose to remain in the faith of Christ  or not...we choose to have faith in God or not. Faith, to me, is a divine virtue of always believing all that God has revealed by His revelation.

Christ  redeemed all mankind and God offers His gift of salvation to all....God offers His gift of divine faith and we are free to accept (choose) it or not.

As far as being spiritually "born again"...for me as Catholic, that's the Sacrament of Baptism where the action of the Holy Spirit washes away Original Sin and supernatural grace is imparted upon the soul. So since Baptism is a free will choice, then being "born anew" is an effect of that choice. Being Baptized or "born again" can never be undone, although that sanctifying grace can be lost if I remain in grevious sin and strengthened if I remain faithful to God and His commands ie persevere in the faith. 

lula posts:

Well, I'd say that Rom. 5:20 means that becasue of CHrist's victory sin can never stop grace. That is even the most heinous mortal sins can be forgivenb becasue of the superabundance of grace that Christ won for us. When we sin, we fall out of fellowship with Him...God does not abide sin, no way, shape or form. No one, but no one  with sin on their soul will enter Heaven. So, yes, if one remains in grevious sin and refuses to repent of it, he will lose his "family status" with God. When I was baptized,  I was spiritually "born again", made a child of God and heir to the kingdom of Heaven. But that doesn't mean I'm automatically in...assured of salvation, etc. as you have been saying.

God is constantly calling us to Him..He's the one who is faithful...but if we are unfaithful and obstinately remain that way, then we too will be "cut off".

This is 16th century theology that has no Scriptural basis.

You certainly have an interesting take on St.John's recounting Jesus' teaching to His apostles at the Last Supper.

Jesus explains why He washed the feet in v. 12-17. Jesus knew everything that was about to happen to Him that His death and resurrection were imminent. 18:4. That's why His words and actions had a special tone of intimacy and love towards those whom He is about to leave behind ...those whom He had chosen and who have believed in Him ..He gave them His final teachings and instituted the Holy Eucharist. What Christ did for His own can be summed up with the passage that He loved them to the end.

Of course, the Apostles could not understand the mystery of this gesture of Our Lord washing their feet until after the Resurrection. Jesus was saying that He "had not come to be served, but to serve" and His service would be "in giving His life as a ransom for many". St.Matt. 20:28; St.Mark 10:45. "Many" is an interesting word here isn't it?

Jesus tells the Apostles that they are now clean for they have accepted His words (received the Light) and have followed Him 15:3, (all but Judas who plans to betray Him). Is. 1:16 says, "wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; remove the evil from your souls". So the 11 were following Him with complete sincerity, but Judas wasn't.

Here, Jesus speaks to them about being clean, He's referring to the need of the soul to be free from sin if it is to receive Him in the Blessed Sacrament of Holy Eucharist which He is about to give them. St.Paul repeats this teaching when he says, "Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord." 1Cor. 11:27. 

This is why on the basis of this teaching, the Church lays down that anyone who is conscious of having a grave sin upon their soul or who has any positive doubt on that score must go to Confession before receiving Holy Communion.

Yes, there are dozens of times when I've thought the same thing. I guess we could only solve that by defining every term and agreeing on that before we begin a discussion.

Take the word "faith" for example.

kfc posts:

OK, I was thinking of St.John 15:16 as well for it most certainly is one of the passages on predestination. And we agree that predestination is a part of God's plan and that it's a puzzling doctrine.

But at the same time, Scripture complimenting its teaching on predestination also teaches that man's will is free to accept God or reject Him.  Scripture is also clear that God wills all men to be saved and this is where the idea of "election", as you are presenting it, falls out of bounds.

About God's predeterminations and man's free will to choose for God, read Acts 17:26-27..."And hath made of one, all mankind, to dwell upon the whole face of the earth; determining the times set for them and the limits of their habitation. That they should seek God if happily they may feel after Him or find Him, although He is not far from every one of us."

So, God determines ....He chooses the times and places for us....He does this so we'll ALL have ample opportunity to choose for Him...to seek for Him...God provides so that we can choose for Him and be assured that He truly wills all to be saved and has given all the ample ability to respond....Does God offer Himself for all mankind to seek Him but doesn't really mean it? Of course not.

Does God give all the ability to come to Jesus? I'd answer, Yes He does.

Oh c'mon...

This is right after Christ washes the Apostles' feet including Judas on the night of the Last Supper. And the whole of verse 18 is Christ saying, "I am not speaking to you all; I know whom I have chosen; it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled. He who ate My bread has lifted his heel against Me."

Here actually goes more to my point...Christ chose all the 12 Apostles, including Judas....in turn, the 11 Apostles chose (accepted) Christ and His teachings, while Judas didn't. 

this is not biblical.  The bible says "all have gone astray, none seek after God."  That's why it says in Acts 16 that God first opened Lydia's heart so she COULD believe in Him.  That's why I quoted Ezek 36 to Mason to show that it's God doing all the cleaning up work that needs to be done in our hearts.  He's the heart surgeon who performs CPR on our dead hearts so we CAN believe. 

You're throwing one side away to grab the other tho.  To you, freewill makes more sense because you feel you have done something when all along it was God choosing you.  Scripture doesn't teach man's freewill in accepting God or rejecting God when it comes to salvation...only obedience or disobedience.  God chooses you, now you choose whether to obey or not.  That's the dilemma that Adam and Eve had.  To obey or not.  They were already saved, they were already in fellowship with God.  They already had a relationship with God.  They weren't choosing God, God had already chosen them.  They were children of God.  They were family. 

That's not the same with unbelievers.  Unbelievers are NOT in the family of God so it doesn't matter if they choose to obey or not because they will have no inclination.  God is not Lord of their life and they will not make any decisions based on the will of God.  They are NOT believers.  We have to be born again before we do any "choosing," or exercising our freewill.  Until then we exercise our freewill against God...everytime. 

we've talked about this a number of times.  The scripture does NOT say that God wills men to be saved...btw.  If he did, all men would be saved. Go read it again.   It says God desires that all men be saved.  That's totally diff.  God's will and his desire are not the same. 

This is the point I've been making all along, the fact that yes we all have the ability to come to Jesus and everytime we will choose NOT to come to Jesus because of our sin nature.  We can't choose him because we are sinners that are blind and deaf at birth to spiritual things.  We're told by Paul that the natural man cannot comprehend the things of the spirit.  Jesus said let the dead bury the dead remember?  Only those who have been elected, predestined or chosen will follow him.

We are all born natural sinners at birth so we have to be "born again" as Christ said in John 3 and that can only happen with the spirit's intervention.   Only then will we be able to comprehend the spiritual.  Until then, we all will choose to go astray..".there is none righteous, not one...all have gone astray. None seek after God"

Gee, I just quoted from Acts 17:26-27.

ok but not in the context you're saying.  I was going by your commentary only.    You're saying that...

this is Paul talking to the idol worshippers saying that God has determined the exact times and places in history during which nations would emerge and live v26.  

I agree that God gives us all ample opportunity but I guess where we disagree is the fact that we will NOT "choose" Him by ourselves with no intervention by God.  Our freewill will not get us there.  He has to elect us to believe; otherwise we're dead in the water.  Notice your verse 27 it says:  "That they should seek the Lord if happily they might feel after him and find him, though he be not far from every one of us."    There's a condition here.  "if they might feel after him." 

How does that happen?  That's what I'm trying to get at.  I believe the answer can be found in scripture like this:

"All that the Father gives me shall come to me and him that comes to me I will in no wise cast out. ....And this is the Father's will which has sent me that of all which he has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.  John 6:37,39

"No man can come to me except the Father which has sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.  v44

I think both of these above scriptures certainly speak both of election and preservation (once saved always saved).  If it were up to us, yes, we most certainly would lose it, but it's not.  We are dependant on God holding onto us, not the other way around.  That's why I keep saying Noah may have fallen in the boat, but he never fell out of it. 

Yes, but why didn't Judas "choose" Christ?  Why didn't he "believe" in him after spending 3 1/2 years with him?   Again, look above... did the Father draw Judas to himself?  Or did he "choose" Judas for another purpose? 

What does "many are called but few are chosen mean to you?" 

kfc posts:

Aren't you essentially "choosing God" when you first come to Christ?

I've already said for Catholics, this time is our Baptism and that is certainly Biblical....so,

when is the time when Protestants first come to Christ and become saved (born again) and where is that found in Scripture?

KFC,

My commentary on Acts 17: 26-27 was correct and directly to the point that we can seek and choose for God.  Idol worshippers, ignorant sinful people would be those who also are given an opportunity to choose for God. St.Paul was giving them the message of salvation. He is teaching them V. 27, "that they SHOULD SEEK GOD in the hope that they might feel after Him and FIND HIM." V. 22, St.Paul is very aware that the Greeks of Athens have made attempts to come to the knowledge of an unknown god and here he tells them that the times of ignorance is over. He points to the inscription about the one God whom He knows from Scripture and still more as a Christian from his encounter with the risen Christ. He's pointing out an all-powerful Creator God who opens Himself to the neediness of man.

OK...back to this sinful group of idol worshippers that St.Paul is trying to convert to believing in the one true God...all have free will to accept his preaching the truth or to reject it. As I see it, God is offering all the good news of salvation and it's purely up to the individual to accept or reject.

Where does as you say "the fact that we will NOT "choose" Him by ourselves with no intervention by God" come into it?

I disagree becasue there is no such thing as "once saved, always saved".

St.Matt. 10:22; 24:13, says, "He that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved." To persevere is "to persist or undertake in spite of counter influences, opposition or discouragement."

We work  out our salvation by cooperating with grace and stuggling to avoid temptation and sin and this struggle continues until our last breath. So we cannot be once saved, always saved.

Our justification is an on-going process and our salvation occurs after we die.

redemption was won for all mankind. It is general; there are no exceptions. Salvation is individual and not all will be saved. Being saved is a process not a one-time event.

And "born again" doesn't mean one is saved...(saved is past tense.)  Born again the beginning of the justification process and saved is the end of the line after one has been judged and given the green light to pass into Heaven.

Judas did believe in Christ , but he didn't have faith, hope and charity (Love) in Him.

I intuit your answer to your question is different from mine!Did Judas have free will in his act to betray Christ or not?

I say, yes he did by his own free choice.

In the passion and death of Christ many things were due to God's positive will...but many, on the other hand were due to God's permissive will. Big difference. That God merely permitted Judas to indulge in evil and did not positively inspire his actions is evident from the Gospels.

Had Judas been compelled to act as he did against his own free will, he would not have been morally responsible, would he?

Again, that God foreknew that Judas would betray Christ doesn't cause it or prove compulsion.

lula posts:

The Douay Rheims has 1Tim. 2:3-4 as "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Both the Douay Rheims and the NAB versions doesn't have the word "desire" anywhere in that passage. I'd check the KJV except that's already been packed for the move next month!

St. Matt. 22: 14

It, in no way, contradicts with God's will that all should be saved and come to the knowledge of truth. 1Tim. 2:4. Christ patiently seeks the conversion of every single soul going as far as to die on the Cross. He won for us grace. However, God in His infinite wisdom respect's man's freedom to reject His free gift of grace St.Matt. 7:13-14.

This passage comes at the end of the story of those guests who are invited (called) to the wedding but some come without wearing the proper wedding clothes and are thrown out for doing so.

We've been prepared for this by the remark that the wedding hall contained "good and bad". the man who is not properly dressed is obviously one of the "bad". He's the one who is put out, that is not only out of the wedding hall but also out into the darkness (perdition) where there is howling and gnashing of teeth.

In the Church, the weeds flourish among the wheat. The faithful are still on their way to the final sifting. They've been invited (called), but they are not finally saved. The number called is great, which means they are admitted into the Chruch without distinction...they have free access. Nevertheless, this is not a guarantee of their admission of being chosen for the eschatological kingdom of God. There is such a thing as unwavering hope but there is also a presumptuous self-assurance as regards salvation. Christians must strive for the former and be wary of the latter.

The contrast between the many and the few means merely that the number of those who are finally saved is not the same as that of those who were initially invited. Keeping in context in which the text is placed, we must note the warning which predominates in the second part of the parable. It doesn't contain teaching about the number of the called and the chosen, but underlines the seriousness of the call and urges Christians to cherish it and to strive to belong to the group of the chosen.

We must order our lives in a way that we will be saved.

Don't disagree with me and then run to another scripture. Exposite what I just gave you for you to make this statement.  I've already shown you that this above scripture (you gave here)  has to do with end times.  Even if it did mean what you're saying...Christ would be saying our perserverence is evidence of our salvation because ONLY those who remain standing are saved to begin with. 

Now go back to my scripture in #337 and tell me what "all" means then.  Jesus seems pretty sure of himself there.  He WON'T lose any.  ALL that come to him ARE SAFE (saved).  There are NO ands, ifs or buts.   What does "all" mean? 

this is true, but working OUT our salvation is NOT working for.  So it has nothing to do with "once saved, always saved."  It has to do with now that we're his, we need to start acting like it.  Avoid temptation and sin and this struggle does continue...absolutely...agree.   Our work now, has shifted.  We are no longer slaves to this kingdom (the world) but for the one to come. 

no, this isn't biblical.  Not even close.   Justification is a one time event.  Sanctification is ongoing until we die.  Don't have time to go over this now tho. 

Agree with the first statement.  Totally disagree with the second.  Saved is a one time even..it's being born.  Then the life begins.  Same as with our physical birth.  We're born then we start to grow.  Spiritually speaking, we become born (again) and then we start growing...that's the process.  I'm studying the woman at the well (John 4).  Notice how she leaves the waterpot behind (old order) when she runs to tell others about the "living water" (the new order).  We are seeing her emerge from her dead cocoon and with great zeal and excitement tell others that she's now alive.  That's born again.  One time event.  Now she has to "work it out" as you said. 

It doesn't?  That's not what Christ said.  Where are you getting your info from? 

Yes, Yes, Yes...past tense.  Good.  That means one time event.  Jesus said when we come to him, we have passed from death to life.  He said to Nick "you must be born again" to the question how does one enter the kingdom.  To enter the Kingdom, doesn't that mean you're saved from the penalty of sin? 

I've given you tons of scripture...how about my answer in #337 for one thing.  How about Eph 2:1 for another?  How about Eph 1?   We can do nothing...nothing...nothing...until the father first draws us.  Jesus said in John 3 that it's the Holy Spirit that comes and goes in order for one to be born again.  It's the work of the Holy Spirit. 

Think about the Eunuch.  Remember the role of the Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit drew Philip.  Salvation is the work of the HS.  Philip was just a tool that God used to get the message of the gospel to the Eunuch.  

kfc posts:

Regarding the highlighted....This was originally offered by Luther and Calvin based upon their faulty views on Original Sin and grace. You are repeating their teachings. If  human nature is so very corrupt that there is no way to avoid sin, then why bother? But then again, most Protestants don't bother with sin becasue they believe they are saved by faith alone and "once saved always saved" and the whole problem just keeps going round and round.

when you ask questions like this...it makes me think you're really not listening to what I'm saying.  Because you keep repeating the same types of questions over and over and I keep giving you the same types of answers over and over.  Either you're not listening or you are just so stubborn you refuse to believe what I'm saying. 

Like I keep saying....our freewill will ALWAYS take us away from God until we have his spirit in us.  We are only compelled, drawn to God when the Holy Spirit draws us.  That's why you can talk till you're blue in the face to an unbeliever and he will just not get it.  No matter how many years you talk to him.  Unless the Spirit compells them, nothing in his heart will change. 

God is mysterious and we can't always understand his ways.  We don't know why some are saved and others not.  All we know is that it constantly says "according to his will."  Or...according to his purpose.  He's got a plan and we can only go by his revealed word to us, and trust and obey the rest. 

Yes, Judas used his freewill.  Like I keep saying...sigh... we ALL would be Judas without God's intervention.  We all would go astray.   God chose Judas for this.  Now some say God looked ahead and knew that Judas wouldn't pick him so he chose him to betray Christ.  I don't believe that because it's pretty clear that God is Sovereign and pretty clear that not only does he foreknow...he predestines.   In Romans 9 he says right in the womb he chose Jacob over Esau.  Why is that?  Before they even did good and bad?   He also said he makes some for honor..and some for dishonor.  What does that mean?