Is He Not a God of Love?
Published on February 12, 2008 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Religion
"And the Lord sent thee on a journey and said Go and utterly destroy the sinners, the Amalekites and fight against them until they be consumed." 1 Samuel 15:18

Why was this command given? What kind of a person could follow such a God who advocated this? Is the God of the OT different than the God of the NT? Why the command to exterminate all men, women and children belonging to the seven or eight Cannanite nations? How could God approve of the blanket destruction, at times, of the killing of entire groups of people?

These are all fair questions. Many an objection is raised by unbelievers as to the view that the God of the OT is a God of love and mercy based on such scripture passages as the one above.

I'm not going to tone down or mitigate its stark reality because it would fail from the start. These instructions are quite clear and there are many texts such as the one listed above that speak of destroying whole populations.

In most of the situations as here there is a distinctive OT concept known as herem present and it means "curse," "that which stood under the ban" or "that which was dedicated to destruction." Basically the root of this means to separate. However this is not in a positive sense such as to be "sanctified" which means to be set aside for the service and glory of God. This is more like the opposite side of the coin and means to separate for destruction. In the NT Jesus spoke of the end times when the sheep and the goats would be separate giving us the same idea as to what we see here in the OT.

God dedicated these people, or in some cases individuals, to destruction because they violently and continually impeded or opposed his work usually over a long period of time. God is always slow to act. This act of destruction was not used frequently.

Abraham was given an amazing prediction. He was told his descendants would be exiled and mistreated for over 400 years before God would lead them out. While many may know that , they may not clearly understand the reason for this long delay. Genesis 15:13-16 explains that the "sin of the Amorites had not reached it's full measure. This meant that all the Canaanite tribes in Palestine whose sins God would tolerate until the Israelites came out of Egypt under Moses would evenutally be destroyed in the conquering of Palestine by Joshua..

So God waited for 400 years while the Amalekites and those other Canaanite groups filled up their cups of condemnation by their sinful behavior. God's mercy and grace was such that he waited giving them every opportunity to repent from their plummet into self-destruction. It's always our own behaviors that will get us in the end.

In the meantime the Israelites were not without sin. Deut 9:5 says:


"It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of ther land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations."


These nations were cut off to prevent the corruption of Israel and the rest of the world (Deut 20:16-18). When a nation starts burning children as a gift to the gods (Lev 18:21) and practices sodomy, beastiality and all sorts of nasty vices (Lev 18:25,27-30) the day of God's grace and mercy has begun to run out. I see the same happening eventually to our country as we kill the unborn literally sacrificing them to whatever god we're following.

Just as surgeons do not hesitate to amputate a limb affected by gangrene, taking some healthy flesh with it, God must do the same. This is like removing cancer that would eventually infect all of socieity and destroy the remaining good.

Sin is likened to yeast. Basically what yeast does is corrupt the dough. That's what would happen if sin is left unchecked. It would eventually spread and all would be affected.

Why was God so opposed to the Amalekites? When the Israelites were wandering and struggling thru the wilderness towards the Promised Land the Amalekites picked off the weak, sick and elderly at the end of the line of marchers and brutally murdered these stragglers. You'll see the warning Moses gave in Deut 25:17-18. He said the Amalekites had no fear of God and thought they were invincible.

Some commentators believe that the Amalekites were not merely plundering and disputing who owned the territority but were also attacking God's chosen people to discredit the living God. Some trace this people group's adamant hostility all through the OT, including the most savage butchery of all in Haman's (pre-Hitler) proclaimation that all Jews throughout the Persian Empire could be massacred on a certain day (Esther 3:8-11). Haman was an Amalekite. His actions revealed his nation's deep hatred for God and the people whom God had chosen to bless the world. To this day the Jews celebrate God's protection and delieverance from Haman. Every Spring they have a two day celebration going all the way back to this time.

In Numbers 25 and 31 Israel was also told to conduct a war of extermination against all those in Midian with the exception of the young girls because this people group had led the Israelites into idolatry and immorality. It was very important that the preservation of Israel stay intact. This is the people group that God had chosen not only to be a light to the whole world but to also bring his son into when the time was full.

So here this command was to break Midian's strength by killing all the males and any woman who had slept with a man and who could still become mothers. There are further examples of the principle of herem including the verse in Psalm 106.34. This psalm recounts the sins committed in the land of Canaan by the Israelites including failure to destroy the inhabitants and idolatry. So they also questioned God at times when given these commands sometimes leaving survivors or just not doing what he commanded and they always paid the price for their sin.

"They did not destroy the nations concerning whom the Lord commanded them; but were mingled among the heathen and learned their works. And they served their idols; which were a snare to them. Yes, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters to devils and shed innocent blood even the blood of their sons and of their daughters whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan and the land was polluted with blood. Thus were they defiled with their own works and went a whoring with their own inventions." Psalm 106:34-39
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Comments (Page 1)
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on Feb 12, 2008

The thing is, people think "sin" is a laundry list of "do's" and "don'ts".  That's not true.  Sin means to knowingly go against the will of God.  If God tells you to kill, it would be a sin not to kill.  Of course, there are the laws of man, and the laws of God, and obeying one doesn't excuse you from the judgement of the other.  So if you do kill for God, you can't expect the laws of Man to understand and let you off the hook.

btw, some people unknowingly go against the laws of God... that is the difference between Sin and Transgression.

on Feb 12, 2008
Interesting, but I fail to see why God would care. Why not just let his "good" people get the shaft and then reside with Him in heaven forever and ever, and let the bad guys die off and go to hell?

On another note, God seems pretty meddlesome in the early OT. It's like he created all these folks, and they aren't behaving how he wants them to, so he's running around sticking his fingers in everyone's pies trying to force them into line. Hey...it's his world, he can do what he wants. But I have to wonder...if he is willing to meddle to make things right, why not just create people that aren't so inclined to misbehave? That's meddling too, but if it's ok to meddle in the affairs of humans to get what you want...why not just snap your fingers and HAVE what you want without all the muss and fuss? Same with Jesus and the lepers and blind guy and all that. Don't just cure the blind guy, dude - cure blindness from the world. Don't cure a bunch of lepers - remove leprosy! You're a god for chrissakes. Think big!
on Feb 12, 2008
Sin means to knowingly go against the will of God.


That's it in a nutshell basically. All our sins come from one basic biggie. Rebellion against God. That's why we don't go after the outward sins. We start with the heart. It all comes from the heart. When we have people come in to our church off the street, we don't chastize them for their sins. We introduce them to Christ first and over time the rest takes care of itself.

btw, some people unknowingly go against the laws of God... that is the difference between Sin and Transgression


Hmmmmm never heard that Ted. I'll have to look into that. I always looked at both transgression and iniquity as just another word for sin... I know scripture does teach the sin of omission and the sin of co-mission.

Why not just let his "good" people get the shaft and then reside with Him in heaven forever and ever, and let the bad guys die off and go to hell?


Well this happens also...all the time. Usually people forget that tho and dwell on these "bad" passages because it's easier to make God out to be a big bad God in the sky.

On another note, God seems pretty meddlesome in the early OT.


You say meddlesome? I say protective and provisional.

It's like he created all these folks, and they aren't behaving how he wants them to, so he's running around sticking his fingers in everyone's pies trying to force them into line


Well I showed you how he's patient for just so long. We see that throughout not just the old but also in Christ in the new as well. I think the time we are going thru now is just that same patience being displayed while we make a mess of things down here.

But I have to wonder...if he is willing to meddle to make things right, why not just create people that aren't so inclined to misbehave


You mean like robots? Not give them freewill? Then what would this discussion be about? Hmmmmm?

...why not just snap your fingers and HAVE what you want without all the muss and fuss?


because God has a big plan in the making. It don't look so pretty from our vantage point but to God being able to see the ending from the beginning (like I explained to Karma using the parade analogy) has it all under control. And as I study this more and more I'm starting to really get it. One day we will know that we don't want to go back and open the Pandora's box of sin that Adam and Eve did. We will know the consequences and we will be glad to worship God from the bottom of our hearts for saving us from that life for eternity. We will be worshipping God with our own freewill.





on Feb 12, 2008
because God has a big plan in the making.


What is it?

You mean like robots? Not give them freewill?


Yes, like robots - but really well programmed ones. Would we be unhappy? No...not if we were well programmed.

Maybe I'm missing something. Does god need us to choose for some reason? If so, what's the reason?
on Feb 12, 2008

Now, God is supposedly omniscient, right?  Why does He nip this crap in the bud before it gets out of hand?  I mean, seeing anything and everything during all of time...you'd think He could whip up a precautionary measure or two.  Take out evil people before they corrupt others and eventually the country as a whole.  I mean, that's what I would do.

Maybe I just don't get the point where you would wait until apparently the entire civilization is evil(including children somehow) and then command people to fight and kill every last one of them.  It just seems...odd.  Eh, maybe God just likes seeing us kill each other.  Like a celestial cockfight or something.  Eh, whatever...I just hope God doesn't command me to murder people.

~Zoo

on Feb 12, 2008
Maybe I just don't get the point where you would wait until apparently the entire civilization is evil(including children somehow) and then command people to fight and kill every last one of them. It just seems...odd. Eh, maybe God just likes seeing us kill each other. Like a celestial cockfight or something. Eh, whatever...I just hope God doesn't command me to murder people.


Or maybe God sees death differently than we do hear in this life.

"If you believe in forever, then life is just a one night stand".
on Feb 12, 2008

Yes, like robots - but really well programmed ones. Would we be unhappy? No...not if we were well programmed

I don't see our existence about being about our "happiness" Ock.  I believe God created us to have a personal relationship with us.  He lets us choose whether to be with Him or not.  He gives us life, he gives us each individually our own "light" (meaning even a guy on a desert island who never heard of Jesus knows he didn't create the trees, the hills,etc.  How he honors that knowledge is either honoring God, or not.), and then he waits for us to have a relationship with him.

I once heard it described like this.  God is like a grandpa with his toddler grandchild.  He holds a piece of candy in his hand above his head.  He holds the candy so the child will crawl up in his lap and have interaction with him (not to be mean, just knowing the child well enough to know candy is something he/she will enjoy).  They laugh and play together while the child wants the candy.  We are often like the child, and once we get the candy, we get down off God's lap and wander off, until of course we need something again.

How much more precious is love freely given and not compelled?

on Feb 12, 2008

KFC,

This, to me personally, was one of the hardest things to deal with in my walk.  I studied it and came to much the same conclusions in your article.

God isn't all peace signs and love your neighbor.  He is a jealous God.  A vengeful God.  Slow to anger, sure, but once angered that's it.  It's like holding people accountable for their behavior after letting them show you time and time again they refuse to change.  Is it harsh?  Yeah, to the person you are holding accountable. 

I generally learn long lasting lessons from serious pain.  In my life, God slowly turns up the heat when he wants me to be better in an area, to change my attitude or the way I see things.  I get many gentle prods though, long before I get the first smack.  And when it comes, ya know what?  I'm not even surprised.  I know exactly why I'm suffering.  And even then, sometimes, I stay stubborn, and the heat goes up. 

Kinda like I discipline my kids.  They get gentle reminders.  When they still decide to go their own way, I let the natural consequences make them understand why their way isn't best..unless its dangerous, then I make an equivalent consequence.  But sometimes I don't explain myself to them, I say I am in charge and that's just how it is.  Heh.

on Feb 12, 2008

Or maybe God sees death differently than we do hear in this life.

"If you believe in forever, then life is just a one night stand".

hahaha.

Ted.  I totally believe this.  Especially when I read Job.  He lost everything, even his children.  Then when God gave him everything back, everything was doubled EXCEPT the number of children he had again.  That number was the same.  Why is that?  I wondered and wondered and came to the same conclusion.

If death is the threshold to heaven for Job's kids, then when God gave him more children, God was counting the ones in heaven too.  He doubled everything, including the size of Job's family.  To me its like God says, your children are your children, even when they are in heaven.

Which reminds me of a woman I heard once talk about her three kids.  One was dead.  She said every night in bed she thought, ok, Child A is spending the night at M's house, Child B is in bed, Child C is in the grave yard, at least the body.

The point is, she didn't stop considering her child, her child, even in death.

on Feb 12, 2008
you'd think He could whip up a precautionary measure or two.


well maybe not precautionary unless you count his warning to them in the garden that precipitated this whole new ballgame, but he did have a plan to redeem us from all this sin right from the getgo. Right in the garden when he pronounced judgment before he cast Adam out he told them he had a plan. A plan that would involve his son who would come to take away the sin of all those that would come to him. Think of our sin like a sickness and Christ is the healer. Only he has the medicine that can cure us.

Take out evil people before they corrupt others and eventually the country as a whole. I mean, that's what I would do.


Now that's exactly what we are seeing here Zoo. This is what you've been complaining against on the other blog. You brought up all this killing by God as a not so good thing. Now do you see the other side of all this?

maybe God just likes seeing us kill each other.


No, what God likes to see is obedience. The Israelites didn't always do what they were told and they paid for it. Being obedient is not usually the easy road.

Or maybe God sees death differently than we do hear in this life.


I second that!

Maybe I'm missing something. Does god need us to choose for some reason? If so, what's the reason?


I'm not getting your question Ock. Choose what? Choose him? Choose life? Choose a life of sin or obedience?

we get down off God's lap and wander off, until of course we need something again.


good analogy and we know where to go for the sweetness when we need it don't we? When the world gives us nothing but bitterness and heartache we can go to God for a bit of sweet fellowship and know that he's always there when we need him.

If death is the threshold to heaven for Job's kids, then when God gave him more children, God was counting the ones in heaven too. He doubled everything, including the size of Job's family. To me its like God says, your children are your children, even when they are in heaven.


This is the exact conclusion I have as well T. Death is nothing but separation. Physical death is just the body separating from the soul. Job was sure to meet up with his previously deceased children after his soul departed and now is in heaven with all 20 of them.
on Feb 12, 2008
Or maybe God sees death differently than we do hear in this life.


I think I have to agree...because He seems quite indiscriminate about whoever He decides to knock off. Maybe it is some kind of game...though we never see what happens afterward...maybe we go to a waterpark when we die and it's super awesome...although on this side of existence it sure does suck.

Now that's exactly what we are seeing here Zoo.


Well, no...actually we're seeing a complete wipe out of an entire group of people. I refuse to believe that every single one of them was riddled in sin...especially children or infants. It just seems a little unfair. Punishment I can understand...but murder based on race or culture I do not.

Oh God of Love and Vengeance...you're so bipolar.

~Zoo
on Feb 12, 2008
Oh God of Love and Vengeance...you're so bipolar.


  

The best I can say here Zoo is it's all about spiritual warfare.

Think fiery darts of the wicked one. Satan is sort of like Cupid gone bad.   
on Feb 12, 2008
Well, no...actually we're seeing a complete wipe out of an entire group of people. I refuse to believe that every single one of them was riddled in sin...especially children or infants. It just seems a little unfair. Punishment I can understand...but murder based on race or culture I do not.

Oh God of Love and Vengeance...you're so bipolar.


Exactly!


~KFC:

Let me ask you this: If your God is a loving one, then why would he/she/it condemn and call out for the murder of fellow children of God? If God is love, then why send his children to hell? If he is such a loving God (according to you), then why does he seem so dark, and at times - evil?

Personally, thats not my God.

on Feb 12, 2008
The best I can say here Zoo is it's all about spiritual warfare.


*sigh* It's always about war...be it heaven, earth, or hell...physical, mental, or spiritual...it's always war. How tedious.

~Zoo
on Feb 12, 2008
If God is love, then why send his children to hell?


he doesn't. God never sends his children to hell. Never. Do people go to hell eventually? Yes. No one is there yet. But his children will never see hell. So who goes? The ones who chose to go. If you choose NOT to believe God YOU have chosen. A choice against God is a choice to be separated from him for all eternity. You'll have no one to blame but yourself.

Just think of it like going to court. You are sent to jail because you committed a crime. In this case the crime was against God who is the judge in the court.

If God is love, then why send his children to hell? If he is such a loving God (according to you), then why does he seem so dark, and at times - evil?


did you read this whole article? I think it's pretty clear. Read it again just in case you missed it the first time. God is light....Satan is darkness.

Personally, thats not my God.


then you are not one of his children. His children call him Father as in "My Father who art in heaven, hallowed by your name."





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