Is He Not a God of Love?
Published on February 12, 2008 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Religion
"And the Lord sent thee on a journey and said Go and utterly destroy the sinners, the Amalekites and fight against them until they be consumed." 1 Samuel 15:18

Why was this command given? What kind of a person could follow such a God who advocated this? Is the God of the OT different than the God of the NT? Why the command to exterminate all men, women and children belonging to the seven or eight Cannanite nations? How could God approve of the blanket destruction, at times, of the killing of entire groups of people?

These are all fair questions. Many an objection is raised by unbelievers as to the view that the God of the OT is a God of love and mercy based on such scripture passages as the one above.

I'm not going to tone down or mitigate its stark reality because it would fail from the start. These instructions are quite clear and there are many texts such as the one listed above that speak of destroying whole populations.

In most of the situations as here there is a distinctive OT concept known as herem present and it means "curse," "that which stood under the ban" or "that which was dedicated to destruction." Basically the root of this means to separate. However this is not in a positive sense such as to be "sanctified" which means to be set aside for the service and glory of God. This is more like the opposite side of the coin and means to separate for destruction. In the NT Jesus spoke of the end times when the sheep and the goats would be separate giving us the same idea as to what we see here in the OT.

God dedicated these people, or in some cases individuals, to destruction because they violently and continually impeded or opposed his work usually over a long period of time. God is always slow to act. This act of destruction was not used frequently.

Abraham was given an amazing prediction. He was told his descendants would be exiled and mistreated for over 400 years before God would lead them out. While many may know that , they may not clearly understand the reason for this long delay. Genesis 15:13-16 explains that the "sin of the Amorites had not reached it's full measure. This meant that all the Canaanite tribes in Palestine whose sins God would tolerate until the Israelites came out of Egypt under Moses would evenutally be destroyed in the conquering of Palestine by Joshua..

So God waited for 400 years while the Amalekites and those other Canaanite groups filled up their cups of condemnation by their sinful behavior. God's mercy and grace was such that he waited giving them every opportunity to repent from their plummet into self-destruction. It's always our own behaviors that will get us in the end.

In the meantime the Israelites were not without sin. Deut 9:5 says:


"It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of ther land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations."


These nations were cut off to prevent the corruption of Israel and the rest of the world (Deut 20:16-18). When a nation starts burning children as a gift to the gods (Lev 18:21) and practices sodomy, beastiality and all sorts of nasty vices (Lev 18:25,27-30) the day of God's grace and mercy has begun to run out. I see the same happening eventually to our country as we kill the unborn literally sacrificing them to whatever god we're following.

Just as surgeons do not hesitate to amputate a limb affected by gangrene, taking some healthy flesh with it, God must do the same. This is like removing cancer that would eventually infect all of socieity and destroy the remaining good.

Sin is likened to yeast. Basically what yeast does is corrupt the dough. That's what would happen if sin is left unchecked. It would eventually spread and all would be affected.

Why was God so opposed to the Amalekites? When the Israelites were wandering and struggling thru the wilderness towards the Promised Land the Amalekites picked off the weak, sick and elderly at the end of the line of marchers and brutally murdered these stragglers. You'll see the warning Moses gave in Deut 25:17-18. He said the Amalekites had no fear of God and thought they were invincible.

Some commentators believe that the Amalekites were not merely plundering and disputing who owned the territority but were also attacking God's chosen people to discredit the living God. Some trace this people group's adamant hostility all through the OT, including the most savage butchery of all in Haman's (pre-Hitler) proclaimation that all Jews throughout the Persian Empire could be massacred on a certain day (Esther 3:8-11). Haman was an Amalekite. His actions revealed his nation's deep hatred for God and the people whom God had chosen to bless the world. To this day the Jews celebrate God's protection and delieverance from Haman. Every Spring they have a two day celebration going all the way back to this time.

In Numbers 25 and 31 Israel was also told to conduct a war of extermination against all those in Midian with the exception of the young girls because this people group had led the Israelites into idolatry and immorality. It was very important that the preservation of Israel stay intact. This is the people group that God had chosen not only to be a light to the whole world but to also bring his son into when the time was full.

So here this command was to break Midian's strength by killing all the males and any woman who had slept with a man and who could still become mothers. There are further examples of the principle of herem including the verse in Psalm 106.34. This psalm recounts the sins committed in the land of Canaan by the Israelites including failure to destroy the inhabitants and idolatry. So they also questioned God at times when given these commands sometimes leaving survivors or just not doing what he commanded and they always paid the price for their sin.

"They did not destroy the nations concerning whom the Lord commanded them; but were mingled among the heathen and learned their works. And they served their idols; which were a snare to them. Yes, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters to devils and shed innocent blood even the blood of their sons and of their daughters whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan and the land was polluted with blood. Thus were they defiled with their own works and went a whoring with their own inventions." Psalm 106:34-39
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Comments (Page 2)
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on Feb 12, 2008
did you read this whole article? I think it's pretty clear. Read it again just in case you missed it the first time. God is light....Satan is darkness.


Yes i did, but realize that it was YOUR interpretation of why. Yours, according to what you THINK God desires. That's all any religious persons' claims are. No one can ever truly know what God says or desires or his ways. It's called faith for a reason.

It's just like saying, "Oh, well, God created everything in seven days." Well, what is time to God?

*sigh* It's always about war...be it heaven, earth, or hell...physical, mental, or spiritual...it's always war. How tedious.


Yeah really, I agree. "War...what is it good for?" (Love that song.)

he doesn't. God never sends his children to hell. Never. Do people go to hell eventually? Yes. No one is there yet. But his children will never see hell. So who goes? The ones who chose to go. If you choose NOT to believe God YOU have chosen. A choice against God is a choice to be separated from him for all eternity. You'll have no one to blame but yourself.

Just think of it like going to court. You are sent to jail because you committed a crime. In this case the crime was against God who is the judge in the court.


Yes he does, by proxy. According to your beliefs...If we don't follow "his" word (I use his loosely because wave no factual or otherwise solid evidence that what is written in the bible, is truly his word. To me, it is the word of men, who think they know what God says.) then we go to hell. His word, supposidly written in the bible, is the agent. Not just that, but if he loves us, then why would he set us up for possible failure? If he loves us, and wants us all to return to heaven, then why set us up to fail?

What good is redemption when you put things in the way of gaining it? Sure, I could say (if i was God), "Go and live your lives freely my children. I want you to come back, but if you sin, if you follow the evil path, then you're going to hell."

See what I mean? God says he loves us all, but the goes about his way in sanctifying murder, and other horrible things. (Some of which are supposadly forbidden, like murder.)

Compassion, love, and hope for return are all well and good, but when you combine that with a seemingly contradictory means.

then you are not one of his children. His children call him Father as in "My Father who art in heaven, hallowed by your name."


What is God, but the supreme being. What is Allah, but the supreme being. What is Yaweh, but the supreme being. He is everything we know and all that we will know.

Each religion has its version of God. In the end they're all a supreme being, and (in my opinion) the same being.


on Feb 13, 2008
P.S.

First off, meant to say he/she when refering to God directly (When i said "he.").

Secondly, yes you are right in that judgment. My God, doesn't care about what he/she is called, as long as I follow. I believe in The God/Allah/Yaweh/Supreme Being.

Whatever you want to call him doesn't matter to me because he is everything and in everyone. I only care that you find happiness and peace in your life, whatever way you can. That, I believe, is the best way of life.

on Feb 13, 2008
I don't see our existence about being about our "happiness" Ock.


Yeah, that's pretty clear, isn't it?

I believe God created us to have a personal relationship with us. He lets us choose whether to be with Him or not.


And if we don't we're punished for choosing wrong (according to the tenets of Christian fundamentalism)

That's a little like locking a girl in a room until she decides to be your girlfriend, and if she never does, you torture her. It's exactly like it, actually. The girl says "I want OUT of here! I want to be FREE!" And her captor replies "Oh you're quite free. Free to love me, that is. Anything else you're "free" to do will result in eternal torture. Enjoy your freedom."

I'm not getting your question Ock. Choose what? Choose him? Choose life? Choose a life of sin or obedience?


Why does he need us to *choose* to be obedient as opposed to just making us obedient? Since it's clear (as you quickly noted) that if we didn't have free will that we'd just be robots, then us making this choice must satisfy some need. It must be important for some reason that we actually make this choice. What is the reason? What need does it satisfy?

But his children will never see hell. So who goes? The ones who chose to go. If you choose NOT to believe God YOU have chosen. A choice against God is a choice to be separated from him for all eternity. You'll have no one to blame but yourself.


Can we wait until we die to decide?
on Feb 13, 2008
That's a little like locking a girl in a room until she decides to be your girlfriend, and if she never does, you torture her. It's exactly like it, actually. The girl says "I want OUT of here! I want to be FREE!" And her captor replies "Oh you're quite free. Free to love me, that is. Anything else you're "free" to do will result in eternal torture. Enjoy your freedom."


Brilliant analogy.
on Feb 13, 2008
That's a little like locking a girl in a room until she decides to be your girlfriend, and if she never does, you torture her. It's exactly like it, actually. The girl says "I want OUT of here! I want to be FREE!" And her captor replies "Oh you're quite free. Free to love me, that is. Anything else you're "free" to do will result in eternal torture. Enjoy your freedom."


Totally wrong analogy.

It's like rescuing a prostitute from being beaten and killed, and bringing her back home to your house, nursing her back to health, showing perfect love and care to her, and then at the end, giving her the freedom to go back to her old life or stay with you.
on Feb 13, 2008
And if we don't we're punished for choosing wrong (according to the tenets of Christian fundamentalism)

That's a little like locking a girl in a room until she decides to be your girlfriend, and if she never does, you torture her. It's exactly like it, actually. The girl says "I want OUT of here! I want to be FREE!" And her captor replies "Oh you're quite free. Free to love me, that is. Anything else you're "free" to do will result in eternal torture. Enjoy your freedom."


I understand your point, but I don't agree with it.

There are natural consequences to every action we make in life. We don't have to LIKE the consequences, or even agree with them for them to still be true.

I don't like the fact I can't eat a truck load of chocolate without getting a butt the size of Texas. To me that is just not right. I can whine and cry about the unfairness of it all, even convince myself its a lie, that I can actually eat all the chocolate I want with no ill effects, I can convince others of my right idea...but in the end, my ass will still be the size of Texas.

Take your girl in the room. I don't agree with the premise that God has locked us in a room and demanded fellowship. I think a better analogy is, he has created a home for the girl to live in, come and go as she pleases. There are house rules though, and violating them won't get her evicted immediately, but eventually she will have to leave the house and hit the street. After all, why would she be living in God's house and not want anything to do with Him? Why would anyone want to spend eternity with someone they don't want to know right now? Doesn't make sense to me.

The fact of the matter is, God created us for fellowship. We can either embrace it, or reject it. Our choice. And there are natural consequences to those choices. We don't have to like it, agree with it, or even believe it. It's just how it is.

I don't know about you, but this idea, accountability, consequences of actions, is something I struggle to teach my kids. There seems to be this idea with them that they can do whatever they want and there won't be any consequences, natural or otherwise. It's a constant struggle. Why, when it comes to God, do some think consequences aren't involved? He created the world to operate in a specific way, made us to live within those natural laws, but then will suspend them because...what? We are so special? I don't get that.

on Feb 13, 2008
Excellent Tova. We forget exactly how holy God really is as we have been increasingly working hard to knock him off his throne. I read this this morning from A.W. Tozer and thought it fit this subject. He said:

Holy is the way God is. To be holy He does not conform to a standard. He is that standard. He is absolutely holy with an infinite, incomprehensible fulness of purity that is incapable of being other than it is. Because He is holy, all His attributes are holy; that is, whatever we think of as belonging to God must be thought of as holy.

God is holy and He has made holiness the moral condition necessary to the heatlth of His universe. Sin's temporary presence in the world only accents this. Whatever is holy is healthy; evil is a moral sickness that must end ultimately in death. The formation of this language itself suggests this, the English word "holy" derviving from the Anglo-Saxon halig, hal, meaning "well, whole."

Since God's first concern for His universe is its moral health, that is, its holiness, whatever is contrary to this is necessarily under His eternal displeasure. To preserve His creation God must destroy whatever would destroy it. When He arises to put down iniquity and save the world from inseparable moral collapse, He is said to be angry. Every wrathful judgment in the history of the world has been a holy act of preservation. The holiness of God, the wrath of God, and the health of the creation are inseparably united. God's wrath is His utter intolerance of whatever degrades and destroys.

on Feb 13, 2008
My God, doesn't care about what he/she is called, as long as I follow


then I have to ask...who exactly is YOUR God?

My God says we need to pray like this:

Our Father Who art in Heaven
Hallowed be YOUR NAME

Names are very important to God. He actually has quite a few attributed to him the most popular being Jehovah or YHWH. This name is actually mentioned 6,683 times in the OT.



on Feb 13, 2008
Take your girl in the room. I don't agree with the premise that God has locked us in a room and demanded fellowship. I think a better analogy is, he has created a home for the girl to live in, come and go as she pleases. There are house rules though, and violating them won't get her evicted immediately, but eventually she will have to leave the house and hit the street. After all, why would she be living in God's house and not want anything to do with Him? Why would anyone want to spend eternity with someone they don't want to know right now? Doesn't make sense to me.


Define God's house. If you mean earth, then we never had a choice.

Ock's analogy is quite true, though in a more stark and unappealing sense to your common Christian. We did not choose to live, we were thrust upon this earth and now we are forced to go one way or the other since we eventually have to die. It's not a kindness, but rather a forced decision. God always was and has decided to throw us out there to play with and see what we do. While we have a free choice for several aspects of our life, it's not a real choice if there is only salvation and damnation. No one wants to be damned, everyone wants to be saved...that's not a choice, that's a consequence. No one chooses damnation, they end up there...people might choose salvation but you have to work for it. It is a consequence of one's actions, nothing more-nothing less.

~Zoo
on Feb 13, 2008
We did not choose to live, we were thrust upon this earth and now we are forced to go one way or the other since we eventually have to die


It's not about us Zoo. That's the whole point. That's the first thing you realize when God opens your eyes to him. You realize right then and there, it's much bigger than us.

No one chooses damnation, they end up there


sin is the crime, damnation is the punishment that fits the crime against a holy God. Yes, we choose to sin. We choose to rebell against God. The thing is Zoo that you overlook is the fact that Christ paid for our crime. He took all our sin and gave his life up for ours. Because of him we do not have damnation to worry about. The only requirement is that we accept his offer of eternal life and follow him. That's it.

people might choose salvation but you have to work for it.


There's no work involved for salvation. It's a gift. You don't have to work for a gift. It's free. Christ DID the work for us. When he gave up his spirit at death he said..."It is finished." We get to rest in him now. After accepting his sacrifice we follow him. Then the work begins but it has nothing to do with our salvation. From thereon in it's obedience.

on Feb 13, 2008
So I might as well not even open the Bible then...it doesn't matter what you do, Jesus died and will accept us so long as we accept him? That doesn't seem right... I mean, that would make meeting up in the next life pretty awkward for murders, rapists and their respective victims.

"Hey, didn't you stab me to death while I pleaded for mercy? Shouldn't you be in hell?"

"Heh, about that...I accepted Jesus, so here I am. Uhh...sorry about that whole murder thing."

If that's the case then the 10 Commandments and most of the Bible is useless save for the "Jesus will forgive you" part. One slip of paper replaces the whole book.

~Zoo
on Feb 13, 2008
We did not choose to live, we were thrust upon this earth and now we are forced to go one way or the other since we eventually have to die. It's not a kindness, but rather a forced decision.


That gets a rare "Amen" from me.
on Feb 13, 2008
P.S. Going to Lisbon, Portugal for the next couple of days. Have fun everybody!
on Feb 13, 2008
Going to Lisbon, Portugal for the next couple of days. Have fun everybody!


WHOA! Have a safe FUN trip!
on Feb 13, 2008
So I might as well not even open the Bible then...


The Bible is a "Get to Know God" book. If you *truly* accept Jesus as Lord and Savior isn't it logical to want to know as much as possible about the God you want to spend eternity with?

Not everyone who says they accept Jesus really knows him Zoo. Come on, you're a smart guy, you know that.

As for behavior. That's putting the cart before the horse, so to speak. Once someone truly accepts and want to get to know God, reading what pleases and displeases him comes naturally.

Define God's house. If you mean earth, then we never had a choice.


I do mean earth. You didn't have a choice? Ok. I agree with that. But let me ask you this Zoo. Would you rather be dead? Are you sorry you were ever born? Was it a curse or a gift?

I realize there are people who consider their own lives a burden or curse. But I doubt you will find many who truly believe ALL life is a burden/curse.

Saying we have no choice to live is not exactly true either. You can end your life any time you want if its such a burden. But you don't. Why not?

If that's the case then the 10 Commandments and most of the Bible is useless save for the "Jesus will forgive you" part. One slip of paper replaces the whole book.


The 10 commandments are the law. They show us what God loves, and what He hates. They show His holiness and at the same time show us we can never live up to them. Then He shows us that even though we can't ever be perfect, He can, and He doesn't sacrifice His holiness by taking on human form and paying the penalty for our sin.

The whole Bible (to me) is the story of our fellowship with God (Adam and Eve), our disobedience, and God's plan to get us back without sacrificing His perfect holiness. He shows the entire plan, sent prophets to tell all about it. And then he fulfilled it exactly as He said He'd do to reconcile our relationship.

The one thing He won't do is force you to love Him.
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