Adam and Eve transgressed the law of God. It's true they were tempted and persuaded to do so, but still the devil couldn't force Eve to eat of the forbidden tree, nor did Eve oblige Adam to do so. It was of their own free will they sinned.

If you read Genesis carefully, you'll see that Eve first sinned by thought, in a twofold way. She doubted of God's love "why has He forbidden us" without any apparent reason? and next she doubted of God's veracity, "lest perhaps", we shall die. Then she sinned by desire, a desire of pride wishing to be like God and a desire of the flesh wishing to eat of the forbidden tree, becasue it looked tempting. Lastly, she sinned by deed. By eating of the forbidden fruit, she boldly and proudly disobeyed God's commandment and then inveigled Adam into the same grave sin of disobedience.

What ought Eve have done? What is the lesson to us today? She ought either to have made no answer to the serpent and fled. Or, she ought to have said, "God has willed it so. I do not ask why, becasue God knows best what is good for us. Instead of this, Eve let herself be drawn into conversation with the devil, and therby he had already gained half his object!

I agree with you.

Having said that, GOd knew exactly what they were doing and that they would do it, for God knows everything, but He didn't CAUSE them to fall. The fact that God knew it did not make them fall into sin, nor place the responsibility upon God in any way.

The example that is often used to explain this is if I find out by some means that you are going to sail to Europe next week, then when you have sailed I do not tell anyone I made you go.

In other words, knowledge as such does not cause events.

And your choice is?

They were designed with the ability to choose. If you wish, you can call that a flaw. Maybe it is. Only a Robot is pefect then if that's your criteria for perfection. God chose not to create robots but humans with the ability to choose to love him or not.

What we don't know is how long they were in the Garden and the amount of children they had before the Fall

I don't believe they had children in the garden Lula. Do you? Only Adam and Eve were cast out. If they had children then they would still be there because only Adam and Eve sinned. No mention of family going out with them. In fact it seems clear that only these two were banished.

"Unto Adam also and TO HIS WIFE did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them." Gen 3:21

The fact that God knew it did not make them fall into sin, nor place the responsibility upon God in any way.

yes, agree. But it seems as tho God gets the blame nonetheless.

Yes, you raise a good point.

I was thinking in terms of the punishment given first to Eve and then applied to all woman. "In sorrow and pain thou shalt bring forth children."

This could be taken as though she had children prior and felt no sorrow or pain and now things would be different. We just don't know and Scripture doesn't tell us that Cain and Abel the first and second born.

No one ever mentions Lilith during these discussions...that saddens me. Technically she was the first one cast out of Eden...or rather she left on her own.(She didn't like the missionary position ) I think it would be more interesting if things like that were mentioned more often.

~Zoo

KFC, your arguments depend on Adam and Eve being wise to start with. I find no evidence of that. Naming animals is child's play. There's no intellectual prerequisite, just a physical one - the ability to utter random phonemes as they occur to the mind. Just because they were made with adult bodies does not mean, of necessity, that their brains were loaded with the most recent intellect software. I'm not saying their minds were blank to start with, but I think we can safely say they weren't loaded up with, for example, the ability to make a spaceship that could fly them to the moon and back.

Consistently in these discussions we have, scripture is brought into it, and I understand that. Considering, as Lula said, that we don't have a lot of data regarding the time period before the fall, there's no need for it in this particular discussion. Logic, by itself would suffice to at least attempt to fill in the holes, and since "thinking" is all we can do to fill in those holes, then I will think about it.

Only a Robot is perfect then if that's your criteria for perfection.

Here's an example of logic. If only a robot is perfect, then Jesus was a robot. Is this a true statement? Nope. Therefore we can conclude, without scripture, that a person does not have to be a robot to be perfect.

And it isn't my criteria for perfection, anyway. Words have definitions. I have listed the definition of "perfect," and it stands alone - with your or my approval or without it. Believing in an omniscient and omnipotent deity, I am left believing this deity to be perfect. AKA makes no mistakes. Logically it follows that no mistakes were made. Which means Adam and Eve behaved exactly according to plan which means what they did was not a sin. It all went exactly according to plan.

At the risk of being accused of chomping on the apple again, I'd like to point out where these thoughts come from. Given that we do not have all information (as you plural have admitted), and given that we have been given the ability to choose (as you plural have admitted), and given that we believe there are such things as right and wrong (as you plural have admitted), and given that scripture does not fill in all the blanks (as at least one of you has admitted), I find it not a desire, but an imperative from above, to think. For there is no other way to make a correct choice other than random accident might provide. Even were I to say (and act) that I accept Jesus and have had all my sins washed away, that would not give me a right to go about life utterly blind to any consideration of right and wrong. And the only way to consider right and wrong, regardless of being saved, or words in a book, is to THINK. I don't consider it a desire to do this. I consider it an obligation, and the most sincere form of respect to whatever deity one may choose to call the Creator. Not just to think the thoughts written down in the Bible - although they may be a good referential source. A person that simply reads words and accepts them as truth without thinking is the real robot here, because though those words may cover in detail the method by which one can be saved, and though it might provide a fairly good list of rights and wrongs, they do not cover all cases of decisions regarding right and wrong. Only careful consideration of causes and effects by doing or not doing a certain thing supplemented by the direction given in the Holy Tome of your choice graduates one from mindless following to mindful leading in the Right direction.

More insight into me is that I like to (metaphor coming) try to figure out crossword puzzles without looking at the answers in the back. In the same way, I believe with my whole being, that should I have been born in some remote location, with no Bible available, that I would be able to determine right from wrong without a supplemental resource. Perhaps that is not possible. I'm simply saying that I would work with my own mind, out of respect for the fact that it was a tool which was granted me, to solve that puzzle as best I could without immediately turning to the answers in the back. Perhaps that dedication to being 100% personally responsible for my understanding of right and wrong - as opposed to letting someone else tell me what it is and just believing them - is 'chomping on the apple.' Maybe the latter is. Who of you (besides Jythier) feels sufficiently wise to judge me and my methods? Luke 6:37?

Here's an example of logic. If only a robot is perfect, then Jesus was a robot.

But Jesus was God. He's the measuring stick for perfection. We are not Gods. We are humans. We can never be God. When I say the first humans were perfect, I say they were not tainted with sin. The ability to choose then can be the only "flaw" that God allowed in their creation, if you choose to look at it that way. I think with Jesus he didn't even have that ability to choose. I think Jesus being God was perfect in all ways and he proved himself to be.

As far as "thinking" what we are reading, yes I agree. We are to "meditate" and think on God's words to us. In Romans Paul says to "be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of our minds" Rom 12:2. Psalm 1 tells us to meditate on God's word and by doing so we can test to see if what he says is true or not.

I'm not sure Ock if you're accusing me of being a robot just simply beliving God's word without testing it, but please be assured, I've tested the heck out of this book over the years, and it's words have always been faithful even when I have not been.

Which means Adam and Eve behaved exactly according to plan which means what they did was not a sin.

well then you have to ask yourself...what is the definition of sin?

Sin is an offense against God. Sin is rebellion against God. Elswhere in scripture (Samuel I think) it says rebellion is as witchcraft. Did Adam and Eve rebell against what God plainly said? If so, they sinned. Regardless if God had foreknowledge or not.

No one ever mentions Lilith during these discussions...

Why would we? Who is Lilith?

"He who trusts in his own heart is a fool...." Proverbs 28:26

"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, 'He catches the wise in their own craftiness'; and again, 'The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.'" 1 Corinthians 3:19-20

"...the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14-15

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are saved it is the power of God. For it is written: 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.'

"Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? "For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men." 1 Corinthians 1:18-25

Link To Quotes

Ockhamsrazor posts:



Ock,

Try giving this a whirl..

Both angel's nature (pure spirits) and man's nature (with spiritual soul and natural body) were given the gift of intellect also called understanding. On the intellectual level, man is below the angels whose image is most like God that is, the ones who show forth best the goodness and supernatural glory of Almighty God.

From an intellectual standpoint, if we see ourselves from a plant and animal level, we can marvel at the intellect of men; looking up to the angels, we shrink to our proper proportions. The same is true of angels. As seen from the heights of God, they are inadequate in comparison with the Infinite.

God is Infinite Knowledge. Genesis tells that Adam was created in His "Image and Likeness". Image and likeness applies to the natural and supernatural resemblance of man to God. The natural likeness of man to God consists in this, that man has a spiritual soul which makes his body live, is immortal, is gifted with intellect, reason, and free will. By these 3 qualities, man's soul is in a measure, "like" unto God Who is eternal, whose intellgence is Supreme, and whose will is infinitely free.

Adam's "likeness" to God consisted of receiving in his spiritual soul an abundance of supernatural gifts from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which carried with it grace, hope and charity as well as a superabundance of wisdom, understanding, intellect and knowledge.



In Genesis we are told that God commanded Adam to rule over all Creation...and He gave him an abundance of intellect and knowledge to do it.

In Genesis we are told that God commanded Adam to rule over all Creation...and He gave him an abundance of intellect and knowledge to do it.

good point Lula.

How can one rule, without God's giving him the intellect to do so?

Ummmm . . . there have been plenty of rulers in the history of the world that haven't had enough intellect to fill a thimble.

Y'alls are extrapolating stuff to support your idea that they were "perfect". No, they weren't. They were "sinless". Big hugging difference.

Perfect, defined by me, right now, is "sinless"

So they were both perfect and sinless.

But there is some extrapolating going on, for sure, that sinless would mean 'x'.

I think Adam and Eve were going to have to rely on God for His wisdom of how to rule the earth, and I think that's what God wanted. (note: I think, therefore it could be foolishness. )

By not going to God on the fruit issue, it messed everything up.

The first wife of Adam...not in your standard Bible...but if you look around you can find out stuff.

Actually, there are two creations of women in Genesis if you read critically.

The first: 1:27
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

And the second: 2:18
18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."

And later you get the rib story and all the details.

Lilith was originally created by God for Adam but she didn't cooperate very well and ended up leaving. Eve was later created as the submissive woman from Adam...Lilith, well she became...you know, a mother of demons.


WWW Link

~Zoo

and was only reduced to being the equivalent of automaton--no more nor less cunning than any other animated machine--afterwards?




i'd love to see that project launched--although i doubt it'll shed much light on how he named species not in existence yet but here now.

stop right there.....why would I go outside of the bible in the first place looking for another story to strike my fancy? I only believe that the bible is inspired not any outside books that are a dime a dozen.



No, there's only ONE story. Chapt 1 tells us the topical order of creation and the second chapter outlines the generations of man and woman starting with Adam and Eve.

The first one you mentioned, the focus is on the topical and the second verse you mentioned focuses on the chronological. It's one of the principles to scripture.

If you go to 2:4, the key verse, you can see it sets up the rest of Chap 2 for the chronological beginnings of man and woman.