While I don't disagree that the Satan character in the story is the "bad guy," I feel, at least in the beginning, you have twisted words to your own effect. If God said "Don't eat of THAT tree (tree of knowledge" then logically it IS so that Adam and Eve could not eat of EVERY tree since the tree of knowledge is a subset of "every tree in the garden." Satan's utterance was ambiguous - granted. But when you choose to elevate one of the two possible meanings over the other to make a point, you're doing exactly what Satan did.

What bugs me about the whole thing, which you should know by now, is that, debate aside of Adam and Eve's ability to distinguish good from evil prior to eating of "that tree," they were surely too innocent to fend off one as clever as Satan. Why Satan was allowed in the garden in the first place - since later it was shown to be so easy to banish someone from it - is absolutely beyond me. It makes God look like a dolt (which cannot be true). It truly is like leaving the stove on, locking your 2 year olds in the kitchen, and then looking around going "What happened?" when they burn their little hands. What happened is you left children locked in a room with a hot item, moron. How can you possibly feign ignorance as to what happened? Because you told them not to touch it? Tell me, if you read such a story in the newspaper, would you not mutter "Idiots!" at the parents? Would you not shake your head in disbelief at the incredible stupidity of some people when you read that the father reported "Well...we told them not to touch it!"

I think, KFC, that often you presume that people are trying to discredit God. It isn't that at all. It's "some" of the beginning biblical stories that seem silly (to me, at least). For the exact reason that I do NOT believe God is an idiot. Or irresponsible. Or any other number of epithets one would surely ascribe to someone that threw a piece of paper into a fire and then stood around dumbfounded while trying to figure out why it burned to ashes.

Tell me, from scripture, WHY did God allow Satan in the garden in the first place? If it was a test, it was a pretty severe test. Like putting an infant in a boxing ring with Ali then wondering why he/she got stomped.

I think the Satan character is far more pervasive than you do, KFC. I think Satan created religion. Look at all the murder that's been done, not in the name of God, necessarily, but in the name of religion (and there is a very important difference there). Look at even just the volatile disagreements between Catholics and protestants over the years. That's within ONE religion. Look at the Middle eastern zealots...committing terrorist acts because they've been taught if they die in a jihad, they go straight to eternal life. More people have been deceived and murdered at the hands of religion than for any other reason I can think of, and even you, without knowing it, have twisted words to your own effect in this very article as I pointed out above. It's no slight to God. It's a slight to humans. Some are so busy trying to worship a word that they've missed the entire point. The spirit of the word, if you will.

Try looking at it this way. You've already hypothesized that Satan is incredibly clever. That what he mosts wants is murder and that he does this via deception. That his ultimate goal is to usurp God. Now, if you can allow yourself, just for a minute, to pretend to be Satan - and you're sitting there trying to figure out the absolute BEST way to accomplish your goals - what plan would YOU come up with?

I'd invent several different religions, deceive some humans into writing some ambiguous literature - all of which contradicted each other - and then I'd sit back with a nice cup of tea and watch the fireworks. Game over. So easy...TOO easy. Silly humans will believe anything - they have an unquenchable thirst to believe.

Respectfully,
Ock

THANK YOU for writing this absolutely dynomite article, KFC.

Ockhamsrazor raises some very interesting and thought provoking points.

Ockhamsrazor posts:









Ockhamsrazor,

Restate every one of these by inserting the words "false" before the word "religion" or change 'religion' to "irreligion" and you will hit the bull's eye.

I tried to argue the semantics here before but didn't do such a good job. I probably won't here either. Suffice it to say, a personal relationship with Jesus Christ did not lead to the murders and deception.

Yeah, Satan invented several different religions. He probably helped invent a few doctrines here or there. He's probably responsible for the movement in the south now that says Jesus isn't the only way to God, and that whatever you believe is the way to God is it for you. Yeah, he's behind that.

Jesus said to love your neighbor, not deceive and kill them. So the murders and deception in the name of religion not only had nothing to do with a personal relationship with Jesus, but also served to defame him in the eyes of non-believers.

The problem is, Satan doesn't just have a handle on non-believers - he's got a handle on the believers, too. So we do just as wrong as non-believers, sometimes. But it's not just wrong-doing anymore, now it's a represenation to the world that Jesus doesn't exist. If we had a personal relationship with Jesus, we wouldn't do those things. Well, if we even neglect our relationship for a while, Satan starts to come back into the picture. His nonsense starts to make sense when you've been away from the Word for a while.

And so we will continue to screw up, and we will continue to drag His name down to our level, and even when we're getting things right, heck, especially when we're getting things right, we'll forget that the only reason we have the ability to get it right was Jesus.

And people will see it and say, "Religion isn't for us." They'll be right, too. Religion is not what it's about, the organization is not what it's about. It's the personal relationship with Jesus that makes the difference. It's the relationship with Jesus that tells us to have relationships with other Christians, which makes us start churches, but then we have a bunch of different people on different levels with different opinions of what they want from a church. And right there, it stops being about what Jesus wants, and starts being about what we want again. And the politics start, and it's all useless once the politics start.

So what makes a believer? Is a believer someone who goes out and starts a church? Is a believer someone who tells everyone else about Jesus? Is a believer someone who becomes a missionary and moves to Albania? Is a believer someone who serves faithfully in ministry, goes to church every Sunday, or a miriad of other religious things? I don't believe so.

A believer is someone who seeks first the Kingdom of God. Don't go about doing the other things. Do nothing, except seek first the Kingdom of God.

Now that I've given Lula a run for her money... I don't feel like any better believer than I was before. I should keep my mouth shut, because I should be seeking the Kingdom of God first, before I spout off about it. But someone's got to keep up with that girl!

Jythier,

Like you, I also believe in Christ and try my best to live in Him, with Him and through Him. It is in this sense that I would say I have "religion" and am "religious". It's the Christian religion. In my religious journey, I want life, truth, and love. In a word, I want Christ...and more often than I care to admit, I fail at it miserably.


By saying the following by no means do I wish to impugn your sincerity, be judgmental or anything like that.

Jythier, everyone has religion of some sort. I'm trying to point out true religion...by true religion I mean the virtue of justice which renders to God the honor and worship due to Him. True religion--the one that God through Christ and Sacred Scripture has revealed...in its broadest sense...is called Christianity.

What you seem to fail to recognize is that Protestantism-----in every one of its varieties, including the one that you profess i.e. saved by faith alone--accepting Christ as your Lord and Savior----is indeed a system or practice, an organization of religion.

So, no more of this I believe in Christ as my Lord and Savior, but practice no religion. Of course you practice religion, it's the Protestant kind.

(Put in order to return to this topic later)

Hey Lula, did you ever see this article of mine?

I'd love to get your feedback on the "differences" between religions.

OCKHAMSRAZOR POSTS:

Actually it wasn't a severe test at all. Almighty God imposed a command upon Adam threatening him with death if he disobeyed. This command was very easy to obey becasue there was an abundance of every kind of fruit in the Garden.

Men like the angels were gifted with free will and like them had to undergo a probation. Along with free will, Adam and Eve were endowed with supernatural gifts of preternatural gifts of freedom from consupscience, pain and death, and a high degree of knowledge and understanding. God gave him a command by means of which he could freely choose either side with Him or against Him.

The tempter was the devil in the form of a serpent. Adam's sin was a sin of pride and consisted in formal disobedience to God and the law of probation Rom. 5:19. The eating of the apple was a trivial thing in itself, but God made it a supreme test of loyalty and obedience of the Creator over the created. Adam could have easily avoided it and he certainly knew beforehand what the terrible consequences were.

The devil, was full of envy at the happiness possessed by Adam and Eve made more envious still by the fact that they were intended for everlasting happiness which he had forfeited. He made use of the serpent by entering into it and speaking by its mouth. God allowed him to do this.

But God gave man will power strong enough to resist the devil's temptation. They need not have consented to it. God had to choose between giving man freedom of will or not. If man were not free, he would necessarily love and serve God. Man would have to love GOd, but God did not want to have a forced love from intelligent creatures. He wishes to be freely chosen for His own sake. So He left man free. Yet, if man is free, he is free not only to love God, but to reject Him as well. God thinks so much of man's freely given love that He preferred to risk not being chosen.

Great questions/comments Ock. A few thoughts here in response to you.

If God said "Don't eat of THAT tree (tree of knowledge" then logically it IS so that Adam and Eve could not eat of EVERY tree since the tree of knowledge is a subset of "every tree in the garden."

What we see Ock is Satan is focusing on the negative. God said they could eat of EVERY tree in the garden BUT one (2:16-17). Satan in 3:1 accuses God, to Eve, of not allowing them to EAT of EVERY tree. Rather than focusing on the fact that they could eat from ALL but one he was putting negative thoughts into her mind. This is a lesson for us all.

The question from Satan was designed to suggest that God was not good and fair because he restricted that one tree.

And if you notice by going to 3:3 (I didn't touch on this) you see now Eve starts falling for his trick and going along with him by saying "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden God has said You shall not eat of it neither shall you TOUCH it lest you die."

Bad company corrupts good character.

God didn't say anything about "touching" it.

Why Satan was allowed in the garden in the first place - since later it was shown to be so easy to banish someone from it - is absolutely beyond me.

hahahah my question too Ock. First off we don't know the answers to alot of the "why" questions. Second of all remember these two were full adults, not children like the two year old analogy you gave. Also their intelligence was very superior. They were perfect human beings with no sin nature up until this incident. Adam named all the animals.

think, KFC, that often you presume that people are trying to discredit God. It isn't that at all. It's "some" of the beginning biblical stories that seem silly (to me, at least)

Ock I understand this. I was there myself one time a long time ago. But then I realized it was only because I didn't know the "rest of the story" I felt this way. They all make perfect sense when you fit the rest of the pieces together. If you have any to try out on me...be my guest. Hopefully you won't stump me to bad....lol.

I think Satan created religion.

no argument from me on this one. I agree with you. God is the God of order. Satan is the god of chaos. The more he throws at us the better from his standpoint. Confusion is one of his tools.

I'd invent several different religions, deceive some humans into writing some ambiguous literature - all of which contradicted each other - and then I'd sit back with a nice cup of tea and watch the fireworks. Game over. So easy...TOO easy. Silly humans will believe anything - they have an unquenchable thirst to believe.

exactly. You nailed it. I agree.

That's why I ONLY go by one book. The bible. I don't fall for all these side books all these religions come up with to try to get our focus off scripture. This bible was almost wiped out more than once. If it weren't for a few hidden away during the dark ages, we would not be having this discussion.

I don't think it was so much of a threat as a warning. He knew what would happen if the partook of this and he didn't want them to for that reason. It's no diff than a parent warning his child about running into the road.

When they ate of the tree, everything God had told them came true. Everything Satan told them was skewed to fit his purpose.

Also back to the testing.....James gets into this some in his book. Testing is not for God but for us. God knows exactly what we are going to do. He's not surprised at all. This testing is to show us how weak or strong we are. James 1:2-3 says:

2My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, 3knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience

I look back on my temptations/trials and can see how much I've grown thru them. While no one wants or wishes to go thru these times, they can be beneficial as we learn how very human and frail we really are without God. Wisdom comes when we realize that with God we can do anything and without him, we're sunk.

Second of all remember these two were full adults, not children like the two year old analogy you gave.

Unless something has changed, Adam and Eve could not possibly have had any wisdom to speak of. Wisdom, as I see it, comes from experiencing success or failure after hypothesizing about the possible result of a given action and then trying it. The list of things that the bible indicates Adam and Eve had tried is rather short. Almost infinitely short. What wisdom could they have gained that would allow them to contend with an infinitely greater being (greater in terms of wits). Satan surely was, no? Did his angelic ability to think get wiped when he was kicked out of the House? Everything I read about Satan - from all of you and elsewhere suggests quite the contrary. It is consistently suggested that Satan is an entity that is beyond brilliant in his ability to deceive. You can't possibly assert that Adam and Eve, with little to no experience in thought on this level, had a snowball's chance in hell (pun intended) against him.

Also their intelligence was very superior.

What evidence do you have of Adam and Eve's superior intelligence? I see none. And superior to what/who?

They were perfect human beings with no sin nature up until this incident.

For reference:

per·fect /adj., n. ˈpɜrfɪkt; v. pərˈfɛkt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[adj., n. pur-fikt; v. per-fekt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. conforming absolutely to the description or definition of an ideal type
2. excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement
3. exactly fitting the need in a certain situation or for a certain purpose
4. entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings
5. accurate, exact, or correct in every detail
6. thorough; complete; utter
7. pure or unmixed
8. unqualified; absolute
9. expert; accomplished; proficient.
10. unmitigated; out-and-out; of an extreme degree:

Maybe #3 is the kind of perfect they were. Tools of manipulation - in which case, they performed remarkably well and should have received heavenly versions of the Oscar for their award winning performance of the script that was written for them before they existed. Of course they were programmed to behave in this way if #3 is the kind of "perfect" they were...

If they were perfect by any or all of the other definitions of the word, they wouldn't have made the wrong decision. See definitions above.

So you get to choose. Either they were perfect and the decision they made was also perfect OR they were designed with a flaw. You can't say they "became" flawed, because it is impossible for perfection to "become flawed." If something has within it the ability to become flawed, it was never perfect to begin with.

I still think it's safe to say, regardless of Adam and Eve's intelligence level, they were certainly no match for an angel - even a fallen one. I also find it completely impossible for me to forgive more than God does, yet I DO forgive them. That shouldn't be possible. And what's more, no Christ is necessary for this. To me it was a perfectly natural thing for Eve to be curious. I think she was way out of her intellectual league when dealing with an angel, however fallen he may have been, and the whole mistake makes perfect sense to me. The punishment most certainly doesn't fit the crime. *I* didn't eat the damnable apple, yet I suffer the same punishment as have billions of others. if God showed up today and said "Hey Ock, see this apple? Don't eat it, or bad things will happen," I'd reply "No sweat, man. That's easy enough." If Satan appeared and pulled that stuff on me, I'd say "If you think the apple's so great, YOU eat it. I'm gonna make a sandwich."

But what do I know without the benefit of Adam and Eve's superior intellect?

I still think it's safe to say, regardless of Adam and Eve's intelligence level, they were certainly no match for an angel - even a fallen one. I also find it completely impossible for me to forgive more than God does, yet I DO forgive them. That shouldn't be possible.

wait a minute. Who says God didn't forgive them. We see quite clearly he did forgive them later on. Actually immediately but he's a God of justice as well as a forgiving God. So where do you get he didn't? In fact, if we were the one in charge, I'm not so sure we would have forgiven them for messing up our perfect garden like they did. To forgive is devine. To err is human.

The punishment most certainly doesn't fit the crime.

Why doesn't it? God told them EXACTLY what would happen if they rebelled against him. He gave them everything but this one tree. He said what he meant and meant what he said. Too bad our politicians couldn't take this lesson.

Listen Ock, you are looking at this from a totally different vantage point than I am. You are looking at this from man's perspective. We must remember this whole thing is all about God. It was never about man in the first place. God had a plan all set up. His plan, his concepts, his purpose. He knew exactly what they were doing and you can see by continuing the reading, he had a plan all set up for them telling them immediately he had a backup plan (3:15). He created man for himself. He did not create man for man's sake. We've got it backwards.

Guess who put that idea in our heads?

If Satan appeared and pulled that stuff on me, I'd say "If you think the apple's so great, YOU eat it. I'm gonna make a sandwich."

I think you're onto something here. I think this is the whole point that God wants us to see. There is coming a day, when we are going to understand fully where God is coming from, exactly who he is and are not going to want to make this mistake again. There will be a new heaven and a new earth and we are going to be on the other side of all this and NOT want to come back to what we have here after knowing everything that has transpired.

But what do I know without the benefit of Adam and Eve's superior intellect?

I dunno, I think you're pretty smart as far as humans go........

Let's say Eve was dumb. Adam too. Not quite drooling idiots, but also not really wise either. Let's look at what happened.

God created Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve and God hung out, God gave a command, and then went on a business trip. (I don't know where he went, but he wasn't there. I won't limit God's ability to vacate a place)

Adam/Eve now have a choice. Follow the command (for God), or don't follow the command (against God).

So far, not that hard. They were doing all right with that, they were following it.

Enter Satan. Satan starts telling Eve some stuff. Talking about the one choice they have, and trying to make it seem like they need to think about it. But, Ock, you forget something important here. God isn't gone FOREVER. He's coming back. He DOES come back, after they make the choice, but He was going to come back regardless of what they chose. Any 5 year old can figure this answer out.

"Ummmm, eat from that tree, eh? I think I should ask my Dad about it first."

You're curious about the tree. You know you're not supposed to eat from it, and you even know why - you will surely die. So, that doesn't mean you can't ASK GOD about the tree. I'm sure God would tell you everything you need to know about the tree.

There's an unaddressed logic point here I refuse to let go unnoticed.

KFC:

They were perfect human beings with no sin nature up until this incident.

Me:

If they were perfect by any or all of the other definitions of the word, they wouldn't have made the wrong decision. See definitions above. So you get to choose. Either they were perfect and the decision they made was also perfect OR they were designed with a flaw. You can't say they "became" flawed, because it is impossible for perfection to "become flawed." If something has within it the ability to become flawed, it was never perfect to begin with.

And your choice is?

Eve's second mistake, which has to do with running to Daddy, is that she debated Satan. Never debate with Satan. That's what he wants, because he's better at it than you. But, he's NOT better at it than God. So the only way to debate Satan is to go to God. Satan doesn't even bother to debate God, so that's the end of it. God doesn't really have to debate, anyway, because He speaks and it's true.

So, really, the choice was either go to God or ignore God. That's not really a hard choice, you know. Did Satan trick her enough that she thought she wasn't disobeying? I don't think so. So she had a choice, up until she bit. Though, when she touched the fruit, I bet she thought at that point there was no going back.

You keep saying "I'd never eat the apple" as you're chomping on it.

Ockhamsrazor posts:

You are right Genesis doesn't give a whole lot of details about the gifts Adam and Eve were given. Genesis 2:19-20 tells that God gave Adam the job of naming all the living creatures. That in and of itself is extraordinary isn't it? I wonder if anyone has ever done a thorough research project on the naming of all the different kinds of creatures.

Anyway, I think the intellectual fullness was more stupendous than the physical one. As KFC has already said, Adam and Eve came into being as adults. They didn't have time to learn through the slow formative years of childhood. So, in their first moments, they were already fully formed intellectually. Adam was set up to be the source of intellectual completeness so he couldn't have started off empty-headed. In justice, he would have been given the perfection of mind proper to an adult, to a master-teacher of the whole human race.

Adam's mind, wisdom, ideas and the imagination necessary for their use, would surely have been given to him by God. We see Adam then as the wisest most learned of all men of all ages, short of Christ Himself. Adam and Eve possessed all natural knowledge surely in its principles, and all the supernatural knowledge necessary for himself and his children.

What we don't know is how long they were in the Garden and the amount of children they had before the Fall.