For the most part, everything I write comes from Catholic commentary and interpretation.

A few basics:

The word "prophet" comes from the Greek pro-phetes and Hebrew, Nabi which means "to speak on behalf of someone", especially God. It therefore has nothing to do with predicting the future an activity described in Greek as mantis. Nabi came to mean "one chosen by God to speak in His name".

The Apocalypse or Book of Revelation is the only prophetical book in the New Testament. Both Jewish and Christian traditions hold the books of the prophets in high regard because prophecy was an integral part of the religious heritage of ancient Isreal, and these books record the Word of God addressed to His people through the prophets.

In order to avoid possible misinterpretation, we must not forget that all descriptions here are symbolic images which mean they do not predict future events as they might occur. Another thing to remember generally about Apocalyptic images is that only to a lesser degree can they be compared with a naturalistic portrayal of reality.


It's difficult and profound and yet focuses intense light of the figure of CHrist in glory, and builds up our hope of attaining everlasting life. The Revelation to St.John constitutes a strong call to conversion. Like oracles spoken by the prophets, it urges people to commit themselves to good and put their trust in God. It's a book of consolation written at a time of exceptional stress no matter whether you think it written in 67 or 90 AD.


The introductory vision, chs. 4 and 5, fix the standpoint from which the symbolic portraits of future development are to be contemplated if they are to be correctly understood. Presupposing the right orientation, the insight emerges.


Besides God, there are no independant forces which make history. All powers and figures which appear in history and who seem to determine it by their own power are in fact subject to God's disposition. St.John emphasizes that history is firmly within the grasp of the Lamb with the seven horns and seven eyes. Christ has been given full authority to guide and bring the world to its good end. The redemptive plan God has for His Creation is ever unfolding.

After describing the vision of Heaven, especially the risen CHrist empowered to reveal God's hidden plans, St.John now begins to disclose that Revelation little by little as each of the 7 seals are opened.

Strictly speaking, one could not look into the first part of the seals until all the seals have been opened. Why? The latter would mean that the entire plan of God for His world would be disclosed. Here disclosed would mean, in the focus of Revelation, the same as fulfilled , this is to say that to be completely disclosed would mean that the cousre of history has come to an end.

If, however, contrary to a technically correct conception, a course is already set in motion with the opening of each seal, this then indicates that we are dealing with preparatory events, which indeed are aimed at the fulfillment of God's final Will, the consummation of the kingdom of God, but they do not by themselves realize this kingdom step by step. In other words, St.John didn't write these visions in strict chronological order.

Rather than seeing the seals and the trumpets as chronolocially related, we could/should view the passages as portraits of this period from different angles. For example, I would posture that the seals look at these events from the perspective of the Lion/Lamb who opens them. After all, the Apocalypse (Book of Revelation) is addressed to the seven Churches that are in Asia and it's commonly agreed that since the number 7 is symbolic for complete, this means that St.John is addressing the entire Church. But what is the Chruch going through in 67 or 90-96 AD which ever time you think that he is writing? Either time, it's going through great tribulation (persecution) either from the reign of Nero ( 67 AD) or from that of Domitian (96 AD).

From the outset, St.John informs us of his purpose. He hopes to encourage an appropriate Christian response, "patient endurance" to the "tribulation" which they are undergoing. Apoc. 1:9. Now, we know that Christ's Church has been ruthlessly persecuted and justice is finally being meted out upon the persecutors.

Can we read the Apocalypse with an understanding that some of it will be prophecy that refers to the past times of tribulation in order to prepare us for what is coming at the end of the world? Of course we can.

The Lamb opens one seal after another. The course of events
which is triggered off by it, is each time set in motion by one of the four living creatures with a cry of command like thunder. It's always one of the four living creatures that calls up the horsemen with a cry of command like thunder. The Almighty power of God and of the Lamb in this picture revealed a majestic silence.


First Seal---Rider on a white horse



The opening of the first seal reveals a message of hope, given by the King for the encouragement of the persecuted Christian community. The first rider is difficult to interpret. And this is obviously where KFC and I depart...right at the beginning..  

His features suggest that He is some type of power in the service of God. The color white is symbolic of belonging to the heavenly sphere and of having won victory with God's help. Rev. 3:4, 5, 18; 14:14; 20:11.

The crown he is given and the words "he went forth conquering that he might conquer" would refer to victory of good over evil 2:7, 11, 17, 28, 3:5, 12. The bow indicates the connection between this horse and the other three: in that these latter will be as it were arrows loosed from a distance to implement God's plans.

The first rider goes forth "conquering and to conquer" refers to Christ's victory in His Passion and Resurrection, as St.John has already mentioned in 5:5 and also annnounces the final victory of the Word of God which first will come about later. Christ appears on a white horse riding in victory over His enemies again at the end of the Apocalypse 19:11. The first seal is anticipation of that event.

The horseman will provide a kind of key which provides a specifically Christian meaning for all the terrifying scenes in the Book. Apropos of this, Pope Pius XII wrote, "He is Jesus Christ" armed with the conquering Truth He proclaims. This picture of Christ on a white horse is reminiscent of Wisdom 18:15-16, "Thy all powerful Word leaped from Heaven, from the royal Throne, into the midst of the land that was doomed, a stern warrior carrying the sharp sword of Thy authentic command."

So, the vision of the Apocalypse begins and ends with the white horse Rider. The first seal reminds the Christian community that even though there is much suffering to undergo first, the final outcome is assured: Christ will be victorious. From Heaven's perspective He already is.

OCKHAMSRAZOR POSTS:

I can't really tell if you're joking or being serious! In any event, I'd say in response that God has gotten His message out. He did that by having Christ come to earth, preach and teach and then send His representatives out on a mission to finish the job He started contiuning His message without changing one iota of the truth He proclaimed Himself and through His apostles.

After Christ ascended into Heaven, those whom He had given His authority went about proclaiming His message. Before Christ ascended into Heaven, He established His Church and gave His Chruch the authority to teach and preach in His name. This Revelation is called Sacred Apostolic Tradition. They went to all nations preaching and teaching His message. Catholics believe written Revelation---Sacred Scripture is the Word of God and granted by God to the Church, it's maker and it's her office therefore to declare what it means.

So, in this sense, the Bible is not impossible to interpret and understand what it means. Now, some of what is in the Bible is not ready for us to fully understand as I have just written. Parts of the Apocalypse is prophecy and thus hasn't been fulfilled and so the Chruch hasn't declared definitively what this passage or that passage means. We aren't ready to receive the fullness of Revelation, if we will ever be ready to receive it. Time will tell.

What are the seals? What is this scroll? Will there actually be horses, or is that a metaphor for cars, or something? This book has always seemed like a bad acid trip, to me. Sorry.

hahahah well I'd say John would agree with you as well as Daniel. Both were very disturbed at this vision. John fell as a dead man when he was approached with all this.

Well if you read all of scripture you see scrolls and seals used many times. To seal something means it's legitimate; it's binding and is not to be opened until it reaches it's final destination. Sealing denotes ownership. If you read Eph 1 you'd see that the HS seals believers until the day appointed when we reach our final destination. Our eternal life is legit, binding...it's like escrow or deposit for what's to come. The book of Esther is a historical book and you can see alot of this in that time period as well. When a decree was given, signed, sealed and delivered, it had to go forward. There was no going back.

Horses? I'd say they were horses. It says horses. We see horses in Zech 1 as well patrolling the earth.

"I saw by night and behold a man riding upon a red horse and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the bottom and behind him were there red horses speckled and white. Then said I, O my Lord what are these? And the angel that talked with me said to me I will show you what these be. And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the Lord has sent to walk to and fro through the earth."

God wants to get some message out, why make it so impossible to interpret? Why not just have office hours where we can ask questions...directly?

Isn't that a bit like the pottery asking the potter why he made him such and such and not like so and so? We don't know they "whys" quite often. Our ways are not like his ways. We just know what is revealed to us. The best way to answer your question is to go to God and let him answer: Matthew 13:11-17

Jesus was asked....."why do you speak to them in parables?" He answered them, "Because it is given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever has to him shall be given and he shall have more abundance; but whosoever has not from him shall be taken away even what he has. Therefore speak I to them in parables because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which said, "by hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand, and seeing you shall see and shall not perceive. Tor this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart and should be converted and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes for they see and your ears for they hear. For verily I say to you that many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which you see and have not seen them and to hear those things which you hear and have not heard them.

Imagine you are the father of a child, and you tell the child "I have rules...don't break any of them" but some of the rules are ambiguous. You wonder, for example, if bearing false witness harms no one but spares someone's feelings, is it ok?

THis is a good question. In Exodus the mid-wives were told by the Egypians to kill all the male babies as they were being born. They feared God more than the government and not wanting to disobey God they let the babies live. When asked why they were still alive, the mid-wives lied. So the question was...was it ok for them to lie?

I believe they didn't have to lie. God would protect them. A good example of this is in Corrie Ten Boom's book "Hiding Place." Her sister would NEVER tell a lie. When the Nazi's stormed their home in search for hidden Jews, Betsy, the sister when asked admitted they hid the Jews under the table. But before she spoke, an unnatural urge to giggle hit her and when asked she pointed under the table. Under the rug which was under the table was a hideout for the Jews. She told the truth, but they didn't believe her. God protected her and blessed her truthfulness.

It's never right to do wrong.

You must do one thing to make everything black and white. You have to forsake thinking about it at all and live your life by the Book. But if you do that, you are forsaking the very thing that makes us human - the ability to cogitate. Is that not a sin?

Believe me Ock....much thinking has gone on here. More than you think. In fact, I believe those who do not believe and search out these truths are the ones who are not thinking. Most just don't want to think about these things. If they do, they would realize it's not all about them. It would mean change. Change can be hard.

I appreciate your dedication, KFC, but I could appreciate it more if I saw you launch cogent arguments that were YOURS, not the Book's

Well it's not about me Ock....that's the whole point. My job as a Christian is to point to God. Not to myself. I do my fair share of giving out my opinion or arguments as well. I can be quite opinionated actually.

There's only one way to do that, and that's not to believe everything you hear. You have to *think*. So how are we unbelievers supposed to do that when you state no logical argument of your own. Maybe it's YOU doing the deceiving. How should I know that for sure? Do I have to have faith in you now, too?

I agree with you here. We should think. Do you realize the first commandment is to love God with our whole heart, soul and MIND? God gave us a mind and expects us to use it.

I have an acronym for Think....we are to think on whatever is T-rue, H-elpful, I-nspiring, N-eedful, K-ind.

Yes, it could be me doing the deceiving...that's why I ALWAYS encourage others to seek out what I'm saying...I ALWAYS say don't believe me just because....you need to know this for yourself. No, you should not have faith in me.....not by any means. I don't have all the answers but I can point you to the one who does.

For believers we are to "test the spirits" from where they come. For unbelievers? They have to go directly to God in all sincerity and ask him in all genuiness to show himself to them. He will. But he will not to a mocker. That's why Christ didn't reveal himself to unbelievers as I showed you in the above passage.

I DO think, and if hell is my reward for using the brain I was given, I have no interest in your heaven whatsoever.Love,Ock

I DO think and Heaven is my reward for using the brain I was given and I DO have an interest in heaven. If you ever change your mind.....you know how to find me.

Blessings

KFC

Hey Ock, in your "Quantum Truth" you say this:

because we can never see ALL of the events surrounding this event, we can never discover with absolute accuracy the "goodness" or "evilness" of this event without an accompanying arbitrary choice of a definition of "good". This arbitrary choice, as much as many people wish to try to prove is not at all arbitrary, is what is called "faith."

If Quantum Mechanics (QM) proves that there is no such thing as absolute certainty, how then you ask for absolute knowledge of Good and Evil?

I said this many times but here it is again: it is very strange that when scientists discuss religious or moral issues they dont use THEIR OWN RULES. the ones they use and apply when discussing scientific issues. Then they turn around and say science and religion cant co-exist.

it is very dishonest to not use the SAME RULES in discussing any issue.

You accept QM with all its uncertainties and believe its texts and the people who wrote them without even meeting or talking to any of them. AT the same time, you INSIST on meeting GOD and talking with him PERSONALLY in order to believe in HIM. You dont treat the prophets and messengers and the texts they provide in the same way you treat Schrodinger's Heisenberg's, Dirac's or Born's text. You even take an equation that no one can say what it Physically represent as a valid one. All that but a text delivered by someone who had no personal gain in falsifying its source is all nonsense to you. why? because God didn't talk to you personally and you have no bases to believe the person who delivered the message.

did you ever wonder how in the world did a system like that (i.e. QM)ever existed?

How did this happen? who made it that way? It doesnt make any sence but there it is we see all its magical results.

who created that? itself?

Science is the first to admit it cant create itself because of the following:

If it created itself it will be a perfect system since it is a Creator and also it exists then it is a creation. That is perfection.

However, according to Godel's Incompleteness Theory that perfection CAN't Exist within this universe.

Therefore QM cant be a Creator. It exists but did not create itself.

So who did?

The logical answer is: it must be a Higher Authority above this unuverse and its laws. Believers call that God.

Consistency is a must in any science or logic. double standards are the tool of bias.

And this is obviously where KFC and I depart...right at the beginning..

but it makes no sense Lula. How can "He give to the rider" if the rider is himself? He's giving permission to the rider to do what he needs to do. After the rider leaves, he then gives to the next rider and so forth.

I think those that believe the rider on the white horse is Christ are being fooled by the "white" of his horse. Remember Satan deceives and will come as an "angel of light."

I don't know how many deceivers out there I've seen over the years (Benny Hinn comes to mind) who walk out all dressed in white with their arms up as if they were God. The white of their garment does nothing but hide the blackness of their heart....but NOT from God.

Jesus will come on a white horse, but that will not be until Rev 19.

Apropos of this, Pope Pius XII wrote, "He is Jesus Christ" armed with the conquering Truth He proclaims. This picture of Christ on a white horse is reminiscent of Wisdom 18:15-16, "Thy all powerful Word leaped from Heaven, from the royal Throne, into the midst of the land that was doomed, a stern warrior carrying the sharp sword of Thy authentic command."

see your pope was wrong!! He wasn't carrying a sword. The rider on this horse had a bow. I made that point in the main body of the article. That's one of the reasons we believe he's the AC and NOT the real thing. The rider in Rev 19 has a sword. The Pope is wrong Lula.

LULA POSTS:

No, he wasn't wrong in the cntext of which he was referring to the Word which is Jesus Incarnate and also the Good Book.



Notice that Jesus is armed with the conquering Truth He proclaims. By Scripture we receive the conquering Truth and this reminds us of the passage from Wisdom which I quoted and has the reference of the sword. I could be mistaken in that I read this with the understanding the sword, in this case, can be understood to be Sacred Scripture.

KFC POSTS:

Another thing, please note where I put the quotation marks.



I'm the one who cited the Book of Wisdom to the meaning through by connecting the sword with the Truth He proclaims through Scripture.

I agree with Pope Pius XII who wrote in his Nov. 15, 1946 address, of the Rider, "He is Jesus Christ".

I accept that you think he's wrong.

[quote]APoc. 6: 3-4 "When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come and see.” 4 And there went out another horse that was red. And it was granted to the one who sat on it that he should take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.[/quote]


The next three seals are also horses with riders. The red horse signifies war St.Matt. 10:34.




I'm glad to see that you brought up St.Matt. 24, KFC. We should note that the seals are opened in the same order that Jesus used in warning His disciples about the fall of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70AD. (signs 2 and 3 in Jesus' discourse of St.Matt.24). Here, St.John is describing the fulfillment of our Lord's predictions spoken about 4 decades earlier.

The second rider carrying the sword is clearly recognizable as a bringer of calamity. Red, the color of blood and fire, is in the Apocalypse, the mark of powers hostile to God 12:3; 17:3-4.

By using the words, "kill one another", St.John could easily be referring to his own time to the civil wars being waged at the time of the Roman Empire but also to war in general, where rebellion and upheaval have their driving power from evil, which at the time of the End will be a signal of imminent destruction of the whole world. St.Matt. 24:6.

In the main article KFC WRITES:



Why do you use the future tense? Christ already conquered the world, death and sin during His First Coming. At the second Coming, He won't be coming to conquer the world, but to judge it.

KFC POSTS:

Yes, granted, this is a logical argument for those who think the rider is Antichrist and not Christ.

Yet, is this not the Lamb seated at the right hand of the Father ALmighty who has authority over the whole world? Who are we to limit what He can or cannot do?

This is apocalyptic language, with highly symbolic images that St.John is using. Believe it or not, I've also seen this rider and the bow as alluding to the Parthians on the eastern border of the Roman empire who were expert in use of the bow. They constantly harrassed the Romans and won a major victory in 62 AD.

I've also seen the explanation of passive form of "he has given" as having developed in Judaism in order not to call God by name and that St.John, well familiar with Judaism, reminds us that no manifestation or effect of the power of evil is autonomous, that it can only be at work becasue God permits it. This goes together well because the Old Testament imagery typifies the oppression of GOd's people at all times.

As to whom the rider is, I checked out the Douay Rheims footnotes which, as you know, were from the Latin Vulgate translation of St.Jerome in 342. He thought the Rider was Christ. Concernig this verse, and not at ch. 19, the notes are "He that sitteth on the white horse is Christ going forth to subdue the world by His gospel. The other horses that follow represent the judgments and punishments that were to fall on the enemies of CHrist and His Church. So, it's all very interesting.

The black horse signifies famine (St.Matt. 24:7) with outrageous prices for foodstuffs. A sudden, perhaps ten times, rise in the price of wheat and barley, part of the staple diet at the time, signals a period of famine.

Bear in mind that a quart (Greek choinix) was about one kilo or 30 ounces and a denarius a day's wages for a laborour St.Matt. 20:13.
These are clearly very high prices.

The Church teaches that famine and hunger are a consequence of sin and therefore can be intepretated as "punishment". The Church also constantly reminds us all that we have a strict duty to help alleviate the needs of others, for this is a way of combatting evil.

The Chruch asks individuals and governments to remember the saying of the CHruch Fathers, "Feed the man dying of hunger, becasue if you do not feed him, you are killing him". The Vat.II Council urges them according to their ability to share and dispose of their goods to help others, above all by giving them aid which will enable them ot help and develop themselves.

The famine's effects are widespread death.

Now to connect St.Matt 24:7, "There will be famines and earthquakes in various places". Jesus prophecied this to His disciples in the Garden of Olives 40 years before the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70AD.

We know from St.Paul's secnd letter to the Corinthians 2Cor.8, there was a great famine that plagued the Jews in Jerusalem. He seems to have been regularly collecting donations from the Christians to ameliorate the suffering of the Chruch in Judea.

Eusbius also documents the famine. "Under Claudius the world was visited by a famine, which writers that are entire strangers to our religion have recorded in their histories."

There were earthquakes that erupted during the decades leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem. The city of Colossae was destroyed in the 50s. That was the end of the Chruch there, the same one St.Paul addressed in his letter to the Colossians.

The most famous earthquake was the one in Pompeii in 63AD. The ruins have been excavated. This earthquake, alone with others, would have been the warning to the Christians about 3 or 4 years before the Jewish-Rome War began. All this was the beginning of sufferings St.Matt. 24:8. These signs were preliminary and the situation for them then would get much worse. I believe we can look to those days to understand better the future tribulation just before Christ comes again in Final Judgment.

The fourth horse is a sickly pale death-like color. Its rider is named Death and in this case Death's companion Hell (Hades or Sheol) follows him.

In the midst of this terrible chastisement GOd has pity on mankind and most will survive as many interpret this to show that 3 quarters of mankind will manage to survive. Survive what?

The Greek word thanatos besides death also means pestilence or epidemic disease in general. Since the end of V.8 is taken directly from Ezekiel 14:21, this is a clue to the wider meaning of death as pestilence or epidemic disease. Ezekiel "...my four sore acts of judgment: sword, famine, wild beasts, and pestilence"

Just as the 3rd rider, the 4th also has fixed limits which he may not transgress.

Agian, and this is important to remember when reading apocolyptic language. The apocalyptic riders in this vision are not regarded as harbingers of imminent end of the world, just as little as the parallel text, "the beginning of sufferings" is regarded as the sign of the approaching end.

In the whole of time between the Ascension and the Second Coming of our Lord, in the final time, which we are in, these devestating powers exercise their work of destruction in history. This is why it is so important to understand that they appear at the command of a created being and not that of GOd. Earthlyu pervisity, political and economic desire for power, hate and eny born of every need or pride again and again enter into the scheme of things.

Not God, but the world itself impedes paradise, happiness, and peace on earth. Even if the faithful are drawn by all this evil into suffering with the rest they will know, however, that GOd is master of all ages and all that happens in them. This certainity that all afflictions are intended by God as visitations for their good. Rom. 8:28.

We know from St.Paul's secnd letter to the Corinthians 2Cor.8, there was a great famine that plagued the Jews in Jerusalem. He seems to have been regularly collecting donations from the Christians to ameliorate the suffering of the Chruch in Judea. Eusbius also documents the famine. "Under Claudius the world was visited by a famine, which writers that are entire strangers to our religion have recorded in their histories."There were earthquakes that erupted during the decades leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem. The city of Colossae was destroyed in the 50s. That was the end of the Chruch there, the same one St.Paul addressed in his letter to the Colossians.

Hey Lula,

Not sure if you're trying to say that these earthquakes and famines that happened between say 30AD-70-AD are what Christ predicted here in Matthew and putting it with what John wrote here in Revelation, but I'd have to say it's not quite what he had in mind. In other words what we see today as in the African Countries and other parts of the world today are much worse than any other time in history. Just by the sheer number of deaths alone have surpassed already what would have happened back then. Also we've had earthquakes and famines since the days of Abraham and Moses. Remember the Exodus? Or how about the 3 1/2 year famine in Ezekiel's day...a time with no rain at all? Or in Ruth's day. The famine was so bad her husband moved the family to Moab.

What John is saying here with these three horsemen are yet still future, especially going by the numbers and the fact that Christ said it will be unlike anything we've ever seen before. Unlike any other time in history. I believe we are on the cusp of this right now. It's going to start tho, with the rider on the white horse....which is the Anti-Christ.

Another thing to think about......if you think the rider is Christ, think about this. Why would Christ follow the command of a living creature? If you think logically here, you'd see that we just followed an awesome praise service where Christ is found worthy in Chap 5. No one else can compare to him. Then we come to these seals with Christ opening the seals and an angel commanding the rider to come. A living creaturel would not be commanding the one who is worthy to come. A creature is not ushering Christ here to go into the world to conquer. These riders are going out in succession. How could it be Christ going out if he has to open up the other three seals? Also, if this were Christ, he would come with the sword (as in Rev 19) not a bow.

Logically speaking it doesn't make sense that this first rider is Christ. The only thing that you're looking at is the fact that he's riding on a white horse. Satan is a liar and a deciever and is a Christ imitator. He is going to come AS Christ, but will not be Christ. Many will be deceived.

There are other religions that also believe that this rider is Christ so it's not just the CC who believes this way. But it doesn't make sense logically to put him there. I agree that some in past history have believed this to be true but again, as I've said before, God only gives us limited light revealing more to us as time marches on. He seems to give every generation a bit more light than the generation before. Things about Revelation make much more sense today than they would have before modern technology became reality. I think we'll see that as we move along in Revelation. These things wouldn't have made sense back then.

This is one reason he wanted Daniel to seal up what he wrote until the time was right for us to understand. We can't understand Revelation completely without Daniel and vise versa.