There's something dark and sinister here. I can feel it. I've felt it before, too. It's something so wrong and so intolerant and so unrighteous and so missing the point of everything I've ever come to see and understand it's almost palatable.

I literally feel nauseous.

KFC POSTS: A man and woman coming together in marriage is a wonderful and sacred thing to God. .......He instituted marriage right from the beginning, one man for one woman.

LITTLE WHIP POSTS: Oh really?
Just how many wives was it that David had? And how many did Solomon keep? And, if the stories are to be believed, God seemed to have no problem with either case. But perhaps you'll tell me that the one man-one woman thing only applies to the NT dispensation? That God chose to let the poor benighted Israelites persist in the darkness of their polygamous sin until the Light of Christ was revealed?

The phrase 'And they two shall become one flesh' (in relation to marriage) does not refer to the ceremony of marriage, which is instituted of man and not God. It refers instead to the spiritual reality involved in the physical act of sexual congress. Each time we engage in the sexual act we do indeed become one flesh. And each time we part from a sexual partner we deplete the wholeness of the union we enter into. So that, depending upon the number of unsanctified relationships we enter into we progressively deplete the integrity of our own spirit and deny the fundamental truth of scripture as it depicts the spiritual reality of our lives.
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As I read it, Little Whip, that which you cited speaks to the “use” of marriage, that is, to the conjugal union within Marriage and not to Marriage itself and when it was instituted.


Marriage, is as KFC said, “from the beginning”, between one man (Adam) and one woman (Eve) in the Garden of Paradise. Marriage was preordained by God who established it at the climax of Creation. God is the Author of authentic Marriage not man. "In the beginning", the vocation to Marriage was first a natural union that came from the hand of the Creator. Although the dignity and greatness of the institution of Marriage is not the same everywhere, some sense of the matrimonial natural union exists in all cultures and has from the beginning of time.

The anthropological truth of the natural contract of Marriage is presented in Sacred Scripture. In Genesis there are 2 accounts of the institution of Marriage and each indicates an element of the meaning of Marriage. Marriage in this sense has permanent characteristics and both themes are joined throughout the history of Marriage proceeding from Adam through the Patriarchs to the present. Scripture describes the covenant of Marriage to the covenant of God with Israel and the Christ raising it to the efficacy of a sacrament and a symbol of His own union with the Church Eph. 5:30-31.

The first account of Marriage in Genesis 1:27-28 is not a precept as some would have it for God had said the same words to the fishes and birds V.22, who were incapable of receiving a precept, but a blessing rendering them fruitful.

“And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them. And God blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it , and rule over the fishes of the sea and the fowls of the air, and all living creatures that move upon the earth.”

The second account 2:20-25 affirms that man and woman were created for one another.

“And Adam called all the beasts by their names, and all the fowls of the air, and all the cattle of the field; but for Adam there was not a helper like himself. 21 Then the Lord cast a deep sleep upon Adam; and when he was fast asleep, he took one of his ribs and filled up flesh for it. 22 And the Lord God built the rib which he took from Adam into a woman; and brought her to Adam. 23 And Adam said: This now is bone of my bones, flesh of my flesh; she shall be called woman, because she was taken out of man. 24 Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his WIFE; and they shall be two in one flesh. 25 And they were both naked ; to wit, Adam and his WIFE, and were not ashamed.”
These words according to the authority of our Lord Himself, and as we read in St.Matt.19:6, prove the divine institution of Matrimony.

First, God formed Eve out of Adam’s rib because all mankind , even Eve, was to proceed from Adam. And secondly, because husband and wife were to belong to one another in union, one heart, one soul and one flesh by their love. Scripture affirms God gave man the woman, ‘flesh of his flesh’, woman was to be man’s nearest in all things. “One flesh” signifies God’s plan for them is an unbreakable union. “Union” takes place by virtue of God who created them male and female and gives them the power to unite those natural and complimentary dimensions of their male and female persons.

When God brought Eve to Adam and pronounced His blessing upon them, He instituted the sacred character of Marriage. In the Church, the sacred character of Marriage is inherent in the free will covenantal bond of one man and one woman for life that God has wrought in them. Christ told the Pharisees who tempted Him asking about the lawfulness of divorce, “Have ye not read that He who made man from the beginning, made them male and female? And He said: now For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his WIFE and they two shall be in one flesh.” St.Matt. 19:4-6.

We don’t know for Sacred Scripture doesn’t tell us whether or not Adam and Eve had children or how much time went by before the Fall (when Adam and Eve chose themselves over God and disobeyed His command). Sacred Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of Original Sin as a result from their break with God. They were ashamed of their nakedness, their souls lost original grace and innocence, and the incurrence of the evil of sin was applied to all of mankind. Before the Fall, Eve was equal to yet subject to Adam as a wife must always be to her husband, but this subjection always implied good order and not any hardship or difficulty whatsoever.

After the Fall, original justice was destroyed and it was different for the entire world. There was now a rupture in the original communion between man and woman and the beautiful vocation of Marriage. God’s blessing to be fruitful, multiply and subdue the earth was burdened by the pain of childbirth and the toil of work. Marriage was under the regime of sin and the marital relationship became marred by concupiscence. Subjection became servitude and liable to all sorts of tensions, discord, conflicts and abuses. Women, especially among pagans, became degraded and cruelly treated.

God’s ancient design of faithful monogamy was not preserved and fell from its original honor and purity.
Nevertheless, the order of creation persists, though seriously disturbed. To heal the wounds of sin, man and woman need the help of grace that God in His Infinite Mercy never refuses them Gen3:21. Without this help, man and woman cannot achieve the union of their lives for which God created them ‘in the beginning’.
In His mercy, God hasn’t forsaken sinful man. The punishments consequent upon sin...also embody remedies that limit the damaging effects of sin. Marriage, even after the Fall, helps overcome self-absorption, egoism, pursuit’s of one’s own pleasure, and to open oneself to another, to mutual aid and self-giving.

Moral conscience concerning the unity and indissolubility of Marriage developed under the pedagogy of the Old Law. In the OT, the polygamy of the ancient Patriarchs and kings is not yet explicitly rejected. Nevertheless, the law given to Moses aims at protecting the wife from arbitrary domination by the husband, even though according to the Lord’s words, it still carries traces of man’s ‘hardness of heart’ which was the reason Moses permitted men to divorce their wives. St.Matt.19:8; Deut. 24:1. While the wife was subject to her husband, she was no mere chattel, as with the pagans.

Nevertheless, exclusive attachment was prized in the OT by some of those who believed in God. Seeing God’s covenant with Israel in the image of exclusive and faithful married love (God wedded Israel in the desert), the prophets prepared the Chosen People’s conscience for a deepened understanding of the unity and indissolubility of Marriage. Hos.1-3; Isa.54; 62; Jer.2-3:31; Ezek.16;23; Mal. 2:13-17. The Books of Ruth and Tobit bear moving witness to an elevated sense of Marriage and to the fidelity and tenderness of spouses. Tradition has always seen in the Song of Solomon a unique expression of human love, insofar as it is a reflection of God’s love--a love “strong as death” that ‘many waters cannot quench”. Song 8:6-7.

Yes, some of the ancient Patriarchs married several wives. Yet, Christ Our Lord, has clearly shown that polygamy is not in keeping with the nature of Matrimony. St.Matt.19:5-6; St.Mark 10:11-12.
The nuptial covenant between God and His people Israel had prepared the way for the new and everlasting covenant in which the Son of God, by becoming Incarnate and giving His life, has united to Himself in a certain way all mankind saved by Him, thus preparing for “the wedding feast of the Lamb.” Rev. 19:7-9.

To note the importance of Marriage, on the threshold of His public life, Christ performs His first sign during the wedding feast at Cana. Christ’s first miracle was a wedding present for the bride and groom through the intercession of His mother, Mary. The wedding feast marks a difinitive change in His life just as it does in the life of the man and woman.

In His preaching, He unequivocally taught the original meaning of the union of a man and a woman as the Creator willed it from the beginning. The matrimonial union of a man and a woman is indissoluble. God Himself has determined it: “Therefore, now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man put asunder.” St.Matt.19:6.

The unequivocal insistence on the indissolubility of the marriage bond may have left some perplexed and could seem to be a demand impossible to realize. However, Jesus has not placed on spouses a burden impossible to bear, or too heavy. St.Mark 8:34; St.Matt. 11:29-30. By coming to restore the original order of Creation disturbed by sin, He Himself gives the strength and grace to live Marriage in the New Covenant of grace in the reign of God. It is by following Christ, by renouncing themselves, and by taking up their crosses that spouses will be able to “receive” the original meaning of Marriage and live it with the help of Christ. St.Matt. 19:11. The grace of Christian Marriage is a fruit of Christ’s Cross, the source of all Christian life.

This is the point at which Marriage becomes a sacrament in the New Covenant as noted by St.Paul to the Ephesians. “Let women be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord. 23 Becasue the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the Church. He is the savior of his body. 24 Therefore, as the Church is subject to Christ, so also let the wives be to their husbands in all things. 25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the Church, and delivered himself up for it: 26 that He might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life: 27 That He might present it to Himself a glorious Church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy, and without blemish. 28 So also ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife, loveth himself. 29 For no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourishes and cherishes it, as also Christ does the Church: 30 Because we are members of His Body, of His flesh, and of His bones. 31 ‘For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife and they shall be two in one flesh.’ 32 This is a great mystery; but I speak in Christ and the Church. Eph. 5: 22-32.


Marriage then is a sacrament between the baptized. It is a covenant between a man and a woman, committing them to live with each other in a bond of married love whose charter was established by God. This covenant is a symbol of the underlying covenant love established by Christ with His Church in the Paschal mystery. It is an encounter with Christ which makes effective the graces it signifies, the graces needed to make human love enduring, faithful and fruitful, and so a suitable image of the love between Christ and His Church.

I agree with this. This is true and it's taught in Christianity that some follow Christ and some don't. There were some in scripture even that believed in God but not in Christ. To be a Christian, one must be willing to follow Christ.

A Christian believes that Christ was God, because that's what he taught. But not all believe that. That's why he said "who do you say that I am?" For a Christian it all comes down to that question.

And that's where faith comes in, not logic. Just to be clear to those like Thinkaloud, logic only gets you so far with religion. Faith is the base. You build your beliefs on a foundation of faith not logic. I am truly happy for those of you our there who have strong faith in your religion. It's a security that those without faith don't have.

KFC, I appreciate your unbiased, unjudgemental response. I'm sure my lack of faith drives christians crazy with the urge to show me the light. If God wants me to see "the truth" he's going to have to do it on his own. No person is going to be able to point to written word and show me anything I haven't already thought about. I haven't taken this lightly.

Claiming that my conclusion is "illogical" won't gain any ground either. If you have faith then you will find things to support it. If you don't, there is no logic that is out there to prove anything about any religion. It is all about questions that each of us need to answer for ourselves and those answers aren't a matter of true or false because noone can prove anything about God or what happens when we die.

I know you haven't. I can tell you have put alot of thought into this. I like what you said here. If God wants to show you the truth it is he who will show it to you. That is absolutely true. You're not as far off as you may think you are. I can only lead you to him, he does the rest. It's not even you, believe it or not. It's him. I can't open anyone's eyes. All I can do is scatter the seed, throw it out. It's he who prepares the soil of the heart and waters it.

The only thing I would suggest is to search it out, test the claims and "pray" about it. God says those that search for him will find him. But basically that means, he's already done some work on their hearts to even do this. I have a hunch, he could possibly be doing a work in you even now. Time will tell....just continue to keep your eyes and ears open.

KFC POSTS:


Very well said, KFC. Pilate asked Jesus, "What is truth?" and Truth was standing in front of him.

Are Christian couples who "shack up" living unGodly lives? The answer is yes. Yes, it can be hard, nevertheless, we are obliged to speak the truth.

I want to thank you and support you for standing up for Truth who is Jesus on this thread and other JU pages. All Christians as the universal Church are called to spread the knowledge of Him and His Truth everywhere. Every one of us needs Truth more than ever.

One priest writing about the needs of the human community and the Church put it this way. Without Truth, freedom yields to totalitarianism, justice gives way to exploitation, charity recedes into ruthlessness, peace dissolves into rivalry and hostility.

Without the judgment of the enduring values of the Gospel of Jesus Christ: freedom, justice, peace, charity, compassion, and reconciliation won't stand. The human community needs Truth which proclaims without compromise the dignity and worth of every person, lest he be swallowed up in whatever tickles society's ears.

LW, i know very well that difference and that makes my point. with that great difference between humans and something like a car it is still, imho, less than the difference between humans and their Creator. as i said in my comment (the one you quoted from)one huge difference is that we did not create the car, we just made it from existing material. another huge difference is that we and the car share the same building materials. we and God share much less than that. we only have minute amounts of few of His attributes. I think the car also have minute amounts of few of its builder's attributes. but at least we and the car share the same building material, the same mortal character, the same status as being a product of some being's ideas and actions, and so many other things i am sure you can think of too.

as for quitting the discussion, i am sorry to read that. dont take it personally. Just keep cool.

KFC, i do not wish to get into this arguement between you and LW, but please allow me to say this:

may be you dont realize few things when you write or express your opinion. the quote above is an example.

No one, not you not me not even Prophets and Messengers CAN validate any one of being Godly or not. God did not delegate that job to anyone and HE reserves that for HIMSELF ONLY.

hope you get my point. Regardless of anyone's actions or ideas, being Godly or not is not anyone's but God's call.

Moreover, i think you missing a huge point regarding LW and her response. Didnt you notice how she got upset when you said she is ungodly? what does that tell you?

it says a lot. if she really was, she wont be that upset. would she?

every one has the right to explain their faith, however no one can make the judgement on whether others are a believer in God or not. ungodly is a very serious description

The faith stage comes in at the first stage i.e when you decide is there a god or not. but once you reach the decision that there is a GOD, the 3 points apply. no exception, including the question whether Christ was God or not. if it is logical to you then you are christian , by today's definition. If it is not logical that true God is born, walk and talk and eat then die, then get resurrected like humans, then you are not Christian, again by today's definition. Today's christianity is the only Abrahamic religion that claims that huge claim. All jesus said was refering to God with a word that was translated as "Father". But Jesus also referred to all humans as "Children" of God. to me that tells us the word should not be taken literally. if it is, then all of humans are "sons of God" which is not logical at all. How can Jesus be God then die? and who resurrected him? and how can he be son of God and also God.

something went wrong in the translation and the understanding of what Jesus said. There is no other explanation for the confusion that exists nowadays in this regard.

I can go on further, i just wanted to show you that logic is essential after you make your choice. True God is nothing if not Logic, Justice and consistency in their highest forms. If you see something that does not comply with any of these, i can assure you I dont believe in it. because it is not from HIM. it can't be.

Again faith comes at the first stage. after that it is all logic, justice and consistency. it never failed me. I am honestly telling you my experience.

I examined many many points in all three relgions and not once that test failed me.

God is really logical and sometimes He gets funny (or sarcastic some might say) in that respect too while arguing the case for His existence. He really Does. Just read and search and you will see what i mean.

Not true at all. Is it logical that things just appear once out of nowhere never to be repeated again? Not only that, but by the laws of physics IT CANT HAPPEN. some will say, i am sure, that Quantum mechanics say IT CAN HAPPEN. but this arguement misses two things: one, who created the laws of Quantum Mechanics.Two, even quantum mechanics say things can exist out of nowhere in an Existing medium like space or vacuum. that is not really out of nowhere it is out of the existing medium. even then, they MUST disappear instantaneously in order to maintain the overall energy balance throughout that medium.

The universe we see is not disappearing any time soon and has been in existance for over 14.5 billion years.

That cant exist out of nowhere.

What does that prove jill?

the above is not a lose talk, it is Quantum Mechanics and Physics. you cant get logical more than that.

I agree with you on one point though. Logic has its own limits, like any other created thing. and we see that clearly in Quantum Mechanics. Strange things happen and cant be explained at all even by the theory its own rules. Something must be controlling this universe beyond our understanding. the key word here is "controlling" because these strange things happen consistently , we just cant figure out the rules that control them.

Einstein first did not believe what he witnessed then came to the conculsion that the theory may be correct but certainly not complete. All agree on that.

It is an amzing universe that speaks volumes about its creator. and it speaks now through the logiic of science no less.

ThinkAloud,

First off, I think the analogy would be better suited if we created an intelligent computer AI instead of a car. Granted, this has not been done yet, but in large part that may be because computers simply don't have the raw computational ability to acheive intelligence. But if it were done, you could very well have a creation understanding the creator, and even have a creation exceed the abilities of the creator.

We make creations that agument our abilities all the time, hence machines. As far as physical activities go, our creations surpass us greatly, hence why we might use cars to travel over large distances. We need to wait now until we can create creations that will exceed or augment us mentally now.

And with regard to your two choices, about something coming from nothing or there being a God, one could simply have a third choice in that the universe has always existed in some form or another.

Either way, there is still a lot of mystery regarding the creation of the universe, and we shouldn't be quick on making judgements on how it was done. Let's avoid using the God of the Gaps argument so eagerly simply because something was not yet explained yet by science.

People could not understand why things orbit our planet, so they said that God must be in charge of it. Newton was able to demonstrate how the force of gravity kept planets in orbit in a two body system, but could not explain why there would still be a stable orbit, if all of these planetary bodies would keep pulling at each other, distorting the orbit. So he invoked a God explaining the stability. But then came Laplace who was able to demonstrate mathematically how it's possible without the need of a God. But then at that time no one could explain how our biological systems work so well, and so God must be behind that as well, etc.

The point is, we still have much to learn, but one should not simply assume that science will not find an answer. People keep applying a God of the Gaps argument to justify God's necessary existence, but the gap keeps shrinking.

Do insects have an afterlife then? They were created and die just as we do. Why should we be that different?



It doesn't "prove" anything. That is my point. We can theorize all we want. If you could prove anything about the afterlife we wouldn't need to discuss it.

Either way, there is still a lot of mystery regarding the creation of the universe, and we shouldn't be quick on making judgements on how it was done. Let's avoid using the God of the Gaps argument so eagerly simply because something was not yet explained yet by science

I am assuming that we are talking logically.

Your third option is not logical. only once in nature that something existed "all along"? from what we see around us and from the laws we discovered nothing suggests that option. Theoritically, yes you can assume any thing. but that is not logic.

as for waiting until we discover the laws that explains the mysteries we see is not an option for us humans either. We dont have the time. We have to make that judgement Now. unless we are willing to risk our destiny. This reminds me of an episode of the TV show, "Barney Miller", one of the characters was a wann-bee philosopher and Barney and him were discussing the same point we talking about, then Barney asked him: "what if there really is a GOD and you find Him there, what would you say?" he simply answered "Ooopps..... ".

and it would be a huge "Oopps..".

We must use what information we have now to make our best logical judgement. That is what we do in everything in our daily life. why exclude this point from it? i dont see this logical at all.

The people in the future can also make their judgement based on the information they have at the time.

Then at the end we all will know one way or the other. I just dont want to say that "oops" . If there is nothing after life, then what did i lose?. Nothing really.Believing that there is a creator for this universe does not deny me anything that others enjoy,on the contrary it makes more sense to me than to assume otherwise. so why take the chance especially if HIS existance makes sense according to the information available NOW?

Do insects have an afterlife then? They were created and die just as we do. Why should we be that different?

And who says that they dont have one? Heaven (and Hell) have all kinds of things. may be they do have an afterlife.

It doesn't "prove" anything

That is fine if that is your opinion. all i am saying make that judgement first.

Belief must be based on deep conviction not forced. and that will never come unless the mind feels no contradiction in it. that is the nature of the human mind. It is also the brain's nature to always be searching and looking for answers. hope all of us find what makes us feel the inner peace we all looking for.

We make creations that agument our abilities all the time, hence machines. As far as physical activities go, our creations surpass us greatly, hence why we might use cars to travel over large distances. We need to wait now until we can create creations that will exceed or augment us mentally now.

not true at all. We make things that augment our abilities. WE cant CREATE anything. Remember the laws of thermodynamics? In this universe matters are not created or destroyed. the same goes for Energy. we just manipulate these things around. and WE and these things are made of the same basic ingredients.

And you actually prove my point further. may be we, one day, will be able to make things that CAN understand the nature of their maker. and that is a possiblity (remoteas it is) only because we and them are made from the same building materials. we share more with them than we share with God. and that is my point.

Yes an AI computer is a better example, however we still have few things in common with the car. i just wanted to make the point not compare us and the car literally.