My wife (JillUser) and I lived together for around 2 years before we got married. 

It is something I'm glad we did.  I won't pretend to know where exactly the bible says people shouldn't live together before getting married. But I couldn't imagine marrying someone I didn't live with either.  I always intended marriage to be for life and like any serious commitment I make, I want to know as much as I can about what I'm getting into. 

Having been married now about 13 years, I think things worked out well and I think our marital success has largely come from discussing and agreeing on the kind of life we wanted to live before marriage. 

If someone had told me I shouldn't be living with my fiancee before we had gotten married, I would not have taken them seriously. I also would have considered their attempt to tell me how to live highly disrespectful. 

But I do understand why religious people do the things they do.  They believe that faith in Jesus Christ paves the way for eternal salvation after death. And that anyone who has true faith in Jesus would follow his teachings.  But, I would argue there's considerable disagreement over what those teachings are. 

And of course, there's those of us who don't have that faith.  I think when we die we're dead and that's the end of it.  I wish I had faith in an after life. But I don't.  So I try to make the most of my time on this Earth to live a good, moral, and productive life while it lasts.

I do so love these religion threads. They're so amusing.

Exactly. And that's why it didn't bother you and Jill to live together. It would have or should have if you were living your life for Christ. When we become Christians, we die to self and live for Christ. From the sounds of it, you and Jill are equally yoked.

Actually at the office (I work with two brothers) Jeff mentioned that there was a poll that said those that lived together before marriage had better marriages than those who didn't. Of course I protested wondering what poll was that? The other brother Scott also protested. He's not a Christian btw. He said, before I could even get my point across, that all one has to do is compare the marriages of today to those of yesteryear when living together was a huge sin. There's no comparison. Just look around. How many have marriages now that make it to 13 years never mind 25?

I have a strong Christian friend who has a tux shop. She said the next couple that comes into her shop off the street that ARE NOT living together she will give a free wedding to. Every single couple she meets have the same address. At our church the kids are NOT living together because it's not expected of them. We've had five marriages lately, and three of the five couples have NOT even engaged in sex before marriage, forget about living together.

As Christians, we feel we are representing God. By doing things we believe dishonors him, we feel it deep in our soul and it convicts us. That's because Christ lives in us. It doesn't mean we don't mess up from time to time but when we do we are most miserable. Remember, he said we are to be a light to a dark world. A light does not hide under the bed he said.

People sometimes think we're just shoving our beliefs down their throats when all we're trying to do is shed some light. Well I have to admit, sometimes this light irritates....especially for those who like being in the dark. It was the same for all of us at one time or another. Sometimes I'm still in the dark about things and I get the light of another believer shed on me. I have a choice, welcome it, or pull the covers over my head.

It's hard to leave our cozy bed and face the bright morning. It's a cold dark world, believe me, I feel it all the time.....but it's not going to make me stop shedding my light. It's not my will, but his that compells me to do what I do.

Actually I plan on writing about this subject soon.....so Mason since you love religion threads, you'll love this one!!

PS Brad, I applaud your commitment. That's what it's all about. I felt the same way and we've been married 25 years. If I remember right, you still have a very young family, please beware, you've not gone thru the hardest part yet. I've seen more than one set of teens tear a husband and wife apart. It's sounds like you've had a solid start.... just stay solid at the top and the kids will never get between you and Jill.

I'm not going to argue with you LW. I'm going to do what God has called me to do and you just keep doing whatever convicts you as well. Obviously, you have your own truth, so you're all set.

So we really don't have anything else to discuss.

I wish you a very happy Resurrection Sunday.

to: KFC



Hell is what you make it. And if anyone's 'loved her to hell' it's me, not dear old Pastor Bob, who is a good man and a Christian I'm willing to tolerate.

So farewell hope, and with hope farewell fear,
Farewell remorse; all good to me is lost.
Evil, be thou my good.

John Milton, Paradise Lost.

To which I will add two more lines of my own -

Heaven be thou my hell,
and hell, heaven.

It's about nothing more than desire and will, all of it. Just like me, KFC, the day you die you'll discover exactly what it is you've wanted. And even to you, pious little godbotherer that you are, it shall be given with both hands open.

Awww, how sweet.

I think that this is an all too common experiece. I too had the same thing. I've been looking around for the right church. I went to a methodist church recently and pretty much experienced this. At the beginning of the service people got up and greeted each other, any while several people stopped to shake my hand, no one asked me if I was new. After the service no one talked to me. Even when I shook the pastor's hand he didn't seem interested.

Now I'm at a baptist church. Of all the denominations I never figured this is where I'd be the most comfortable. Of course, I'd never been to a baptist service, but I know all about the baptist jokes and the girl in HS who always wore skirts and carried her bible every where. But this church feels like a church should feel. People came up and greeted me as soon as I walked in. Even now many will call me over to talk with them and introduce themselves. I also always get a nice greeting from the Pastor and his wife. It's the type of church family that I've been looking for.

But the pastor does tell us exactly what we should and shouldn't be doing. He makes it very clear what's acceptible and what's not. He doesn't even like the teenagers to hold hands (which I don't necessarily agree with). But he does hold them up to high standards. Just last week after the Sunday evening service he called out one of the teenager to explain to him that his behavior during the service was unacceptable. I like that he hold his congregation accountable for their actions.

That seems too over the top. If you have a problem with the kid or his action, talk to him in private about it - not in front of anybody. There's a difference between trying to help and "calling to repentance". I know that's the phrase the scriptures use, but there's a right way and a wrong way to do it - and I think that's the exact wrong way to do it. It's the way to drive that kid right out the doors and never back.

QOD

You just described my church exactly. Are you in my congregation? Who knows, maybe you are...wouldn't that be a riot? We too are a family. After church it's almost like nobody wants to leave. We all hang around talking so long. We have one older lady who makes donunts for us every week....homemade. We put a big pot of coffee on and people hang out for about an hour or so before heading off. We encourage each other to keep our eyes open for the new face that walks in the door. We actually had one person say, we are TOO friendly and almost scared them off. But they stay in spite of that. Nobody sneaks in and out.

I think that's why our church is growing...the accountability, the truth is what people want. They are hungry for the truth. People have been called into the Pastor's office for accountability from time to time. It happens. It always seems to work out well tho. Kiss and makeup is usually the consequence for any squabbles among the people. We have only one time asked somebody to leave, for the protection of the church. Drugs and adultery were involved and this person was not interested in changing. He was asked to leave. If he gives up his lifestyle that would be harmful to the church, he's more than welcome to come back. It's called church discipline and it works. Like any family, it needs to be protected.



I absolutely agree with you SC...imagine that!! But maybe she meant that? Maybe she saw the Pastor take him aside? Sometimes we do that, and sometimes a person may get called into to visit the Pastor later in the week after our Pastor thinks about it first. Our Pastor is a thinker, not rash to rush into any decision.

well then straighten up and fly right.....*kicks EOIC in the pants*




well....I say it like this.

For believers this world will be the ONLY hell they will ever know.
For Unbelievers this world will be the ONLY heaven they will ever know.

It's a no brainer to me. But yes, it's your decision. Is it working for ya?

Jill, I am not a preacher or anything remotely similar. so i will just tell you how i look at things.

it is very simple really if you keep an open mind. We and this Universe around us did not just exist. our human mind can not justify that through any logical or scientific principle. nothing we see and learn in this universe "just exist".

so it is either we and our universe were Created or we and our universe just appeared out of no where.

First you have to accept either one. you cant be on the fence.

after you make your "educated choice"then it becomes easy.

if you take the choice that we are just here, then there is no GOD and you dont have to worry about what He say or oredered. OR

You can take the choice that we were created by a higher being, we call God. and if that is the case, then we really have to think hard and carefully before we say, He created us BUT we can do what we wish.

as you sure know, our choice has consequences. That is the free-will part of this life.

very few philosophers or physicists can really say that we just existed out of no where and going to disappear to no where again. nothing they see in this universe works that way, why should it just work once and never again?

you see what i mean.

think that way and make your choice based on pure comonsense and logic. at the end you will find HIM there.

the problem for us is this: once we admit that He exists, then we really cant argue with Him. He is our Creator. Can you imagine something we humans make (not create) arguing back to us and defying our desires and command? what if your car refused to take you where you direct it? you certainly will destroy it, wouldn't you?

if that example bothers you, just keep in mind that the difference in power, status and ability between us and a car is much much much less than between us and our creator. it really is. we didnt create anything in a car, we just made things from an existing things. but He created us and the universe and much much more from nothing.

and if the car can understand who made it, we can understand who made us. so going there is not logical at all.

just make your choice from your heart and brain and after that you will be satisfied. It is not what any book says. it is who wrote the book. it just doesnt make sense to accept that He created us, then argue aginst his ordered. that is not logical. you cant have it both ways. if you admit He exists, then you must accept his authority. His books explain what He wants and how He deals with us and what His authority is.

I can believe in God without being Christian. There is nothing illogical about it. There are plenty of other religions that believe in God but don't believe that he wrote the Bible as a guide to how we must serve him. I can believe that my creator created the Earth and everything on it, set everything in motion and left us to play things out. I can believe that he doesn't have a constant hand in everything that happens. I can also believe that our time here is all he is giving us so we better make the most of it.

I don't believe in doing "anything I want" because I do believe in treating others as I would like to be treated. Contrary to what many believe, you can be a moral person without being christian.

Really?

I would love to read your arguement against it. You think We know about the nature of our creator more than the Car knows about its maker?

As i said, you cant have it both ways.It is a two-step process.

First, see if you believe in His existance or not.

If you do, then you really cant believe in whatever ideas or principles you like, rather, you search for His True Words and the principles they imply.

I know and I realize that finding His True Words are not easy or simple. But they exist. And it is worth the effort to look for them.

As a start there are few criteria that all theologians agree on regarding Him: being JUST, Logical and CONSISTENT. If you use that as a guide you will be able to separate His words from those injected in some of His books by the people who wrote them. Most of the confusion you see is caused by those who wrote what they thought was His True Words years and years after the True words were revealed. humans forget and misunderstand and have biases. that is the root of the confusion and misunderstanding we see clearly in this thread.

just one caution regarding those three criteria above. You must be unbiased and logical and consisten yourself to be able to judge whether what you read passes that test or not. you cant be choosy and pick what you like and discard what you dont like. let the test determine what is a true word and what is not.

and look and search in all of his books. Like you said the Bible is not the only Book of God.

No, LW,

I said I will not argue with you. What does it profit? If you want to have a discussion, that's diff. I'm all for that. But that's not what you want. You want me to validate you as a Godly person and I cannot do that. Oh, you may be a good person according to wordly standards, I'm not arguing that. I can only go by your own words here on JU. I do not see God in you when I read your writings or retorts to others. My God is the God of scripture. My God is the one who walked this earth, left us with his message and promised to return. Your God is not. So like I said before, you have your truth and I have HIS. It's not mine, it's HIS. I'm just following my convictions and you seem to have no room for that.

You have your own truth, so be it. I have not been unkind to you. I have tolerated your sharp tongue for over a year. Not once have you said one kind thing to me LW. So you keep practicing your "godly" life.

Remember it's not what goes into a man that defiles him, it's what comes out. I wish you the best. I always have. Like I've said before, no hard feelings, because in the end it's not between me and you, but between you and God anyway.