Very touching Tova. Thanks

yes from me too.....I'll look forward to the "more later."

KFC, I know deep in your heart you want to see people come to Christ. I see this through your writings. You are studying vigorously in scripture and I commend you for that. But how many times does your passion superceed your concern for their wellbeing?

Hi Dude..... Do you think it does? yes I do of course care for people. I hope my passion never gets in the way of caring for their well being. I know I said it somewhere here on JU that it's not worth winning the argument if it means losing a friend. I am a defender of Christ and when I see him being hurt I do have a tendency to jump in and defend. I am quite aware tho that many don't want what I've got. When I realize that I back away. Christ said to do that as well. I agree with that. There are some here on JU that feel that way and I won't bother them...so don't worry. But if they put forth a call to reason or discuss then I will as long as they'll have me. I also realize to grow is not to "know." It's applying what you know. It's using your spiritual muscles. That's when we grow. We may make mistakes but we keep exercising what God has given us. Working out our salvation. I'm not one to sit on the bench I guess. I want to play in the game. Sometimes tho.....I do need to sit out......I'm working on that part.

But I'm not one to take the "safe" road either ya know what I mean? I look at Paul and Peter and the whole bunch. They spoke up as needed. Their motives were clear. They were strong men of God and they loved God with all their hearts and yet they were all treated so miserable. Why? Because they dared to speak the truth about God . I have a good Catholic friend. We debate, we discuss and we're very comfortable being blunt with each other. I love that. I love that she doesn't get offended if I say something strong. At the end...we still love each other and I just met her a year ago. I have a few other friends like this and I enjoy talking with them.

I pray every day that God leads the way in my life. That I don't run ahead of him. I pray that my will is his will and that I will bring glory to him.

Three years is a long time and proved to be just long enough for me to be "broken." Broken of the unknown pride in my heart, broken so that I might once again be a useful tool and not a hindering one. Broken so I might be remade stronger, smarter. But broken all the same, with the pain and "abandonment" that encompasses......I dwindled down to one question at the end of that three years while I felt like I was hanging on by my fingernails. "Is God Good?"When I settled that in my mind, I started by an act of will, BELIEVING it.

Wow....sounds like God did some refining here. I'm glad you chose to believe as an act of your will. I do believe we are predestined to believe but after that it's our choice on what we want to do with what God has given us. He doesn't force our hand to love and obey him. He just waits patiently for us and after we go our own way for a while, he gently reminds us that he's still here and loving us through. I love what Corrie Ten Boom said...."No mater how deep you go....God is deeper still."

Ha. I think Thomas was probably the author of "show and tell."

I think you've got something here............

I am a defender of Christ and when I see him being hurt I do have a tendency to jump in and defend.

See I know Christ can defend Himself. And while I don't like Him to be disrespected (because He is not only my God but my FRIEND), I try not to fight His battles. We are called to judge BELIEVERS, not unbelievers. Yes, we are to know right from wrong, and judge the sin....but an unbelievers heart and mind are not our territory. It is God's. We have the job of planting seeds, and most times that means climbing through the barbs to get to fertile soil, not declaring war on the fence.

For example, my aunt. I know I keep coming back to her but it really was quite a conversion! She was angry at God her whole life and didn't even realize it. She said all kinds of nasty things about Him, and used His name in vain every few minutes. Had I quoted scripture to her, corrected her or debated with her...well I am certain she would not be a Christian today. I prayed for her everyday, and in my mind that is far more "deadly" and warrior like than waging war on the fence.

I am not saying debate is bad. I am saying serious debate (for most people) is best left to AFTER salvation. The reason its best left until after is because scripture is not going to be understood without FAITH that GOD provides. If faith came by hearing alone, then everyone would have faith who heard the word...but we are told in scripture God measures out faith to each of us.

Anyway, if we believe that....and know that the word sounds like foolishness to unbelievers, then it doesn't make a lot of sense to debate it. Because one side thinks its bunk, and you and I can't CHANGE that. All we can do is show them Christ, the rest is between that person and God.

I don't know what your life experience is, or really anything other than what you reveal here. But I find most people have defenses around them. Especially people who have a beef with Jesus. It is not my place to worry about HOW to get around their defense. It is my place to gently PLANT seeds (not use them as bullets) and let God carry them in.

Personally I think Satan takes great satisfaction when a Christian comes upon an unbeliever and immediately starts planning an attack. Or starts looking for weaknesses in their arguments. Because he knows our pride is involved and we will defeat ourselves.

I don't know what kind of things you struggle with in real life, but you said....

I pray every day that God leads the way in my life. That I don't run ahead of him. I pray that my will is his will and that I will bring glory to him.

If you really want to know how much glory you are bringing to him I challenge you to do this. It will take guts.

Ask a group of ladies, either your Bible study group, SS group, whatever....to help you out. Explain to them that you want to know HONESTLY how you come across, not just to them, but to unbelievers. Ask them to think about it, and write it down anonymously, and then leave a basket or something somewhere they can leave their notes. There is bound to be a few women who know unbelievers you've come into contact with.....

I encourage this not because I presume to know you or your heart. But because I think it is our duty as Christians to constantly be seeking our ways for pride since it seems to be the root of all sin.

We are called to judge BELIEVERS, not unbelievers.

I am unaware of judging fellow believers as being biblical. I know that if we see our brother/sister sinning we are to approach them regarding this but that is not judging that is building.

I look at Paul and Peter and the whole bunch. They spoke up as needed.

They spoke up as needed! I look at the scene of the young believer in Acts shouting out that they are to be circumsized. But what do Paul and others do? They have a meeting to discuss this issue. They dealt with each other in love not by a tongue lashing. I believe there is time and place and that's where wisdom comes in. We are to plant seeds, cultivate, or reap the harvest of what is planted but we cannot make it grow! Just keep in mind that the tongue is sharper than a two edged sword.

Ask a group of ladies, either your Bible study group, SS group, whatever....to help you out. Explain to them that you want to know HONESTLY how you come across, not just to them, but to unbelievers. Ask them to think about it, and write it down anonymously, and then leave a basket or something somewhere they can leave their notes. There is bound to be a few women who know unbelievers you've come into contact with.....

Well Tova, I've actually done this and recently. I asked them if they thought I was too blunt and I told them that I feel I can get that way sometimes. They said no. They thought it was good that I speak up. That I don't mince words. They know my heart for one thing. So maybe that makes a difference. It's kinda hard here on JU for that to come out. I'm not quite sure what I've said here that is so pushy or unkind. I mean look at the topic here. It's about God and does he exist. That's what we're discussing. I also have many non Christian friends. They laugh at me sometimes but we get along fine. I'm not chasing them around with a bible ok?

But what do Paul and others do?

Well in Acts 5 Peter told the unbelievers that they were the ones that killed Jesus and hung him on the tree. When they heard that they were cut to the heart and tried to have him killed. He was beaten, stoned, left to die in the sea, imprisoned and for what? He wasn't out to win a popularity contest. Neither am I.

Stephen's indictment of unbelieving Jews is seen when he calls them a "stiffnecked" and uncircumcised in heart and ears he said "you do always resist the Holy Spirit." Of course that statement would not win him any election. We have Felix who tremembled and sent Paul away. Jesus himself told the Pharisees they were the seed of Satan. I think I'm nicer than that.....LOL.....

I know many people are saved by the love they see. There is no stronger statement than that. But true love is not withholding the truth from them either. We need to speak the truth in love. I get that really I do. I have heard the testimonies of many that were saved by knowing the judgment of God also. They heard the message heard about Revelation and knew they were not right with God.

I've been at the deathbed of believers and unbelievers. Have you? There is a big difference. I heard one testimony from a man whose mom had died and he blasted out the church because not one Christian told his mom about Christ. And there were five churches in the area around their home.

I just got an editorial from my Catholic friend. She hates John MacArthur (one of my favorite preachers) and sent me an editorial that a Catholic writer had written. Guess what they called what I believe to be a great man of God? Arrogant. No one likes to be called names like this. But I have to tell you it made me feel like I was in good company. As long as they don't rock me to sleep.........LOL......

I am unaware of judging fellow believers as being biblical. I know that if we see our brother/sister sinning we are to approach them regarding this but that is not judging that is building.

Actually Paul gives detailed info on how to confront a brother or sister who is sinning...going to them, then if they persist, involving the elders, and if they continue kicking them out of the church. That is judging in my book.

Though it has no bearing on their salvation, being kicked out of church, we do have pretty clear guidelines about judging and confronting a believers sin.

I'm not chasing them around with a bible ok?

LOL

Ok KFC. I will let this go because you obviously have talked about it and given it thought.

Love ya!

Light cannot be seen UNTIL it is reflected off of something.

Just wanted to let you know that you can actually see light from the source itself too. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to see the sun. It's not reflecting off itself. It's an actual source of light.

OK time for me to leave. It's really funny to see someone's arguments get blown up again and again, and that guy trying to gloss it over with certain "additions" to bible when he said bible's word can be taken absolutely.

Just wanted to let you know that you can actually see light from the source itself too. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to see the sun. It's not reflecting off itself. It's an actual source of light.

XX I disagree with you. Then why do I see darkness at night? If it doesn't need something to reflect off of then darkness would not exist. A laser is a good example. You cannot see it until it reflects off of something. Looking at the source of light is no different than seeing the laser light being reflected off the wall.

Actually Paul gives detailed info on how to confront a brother or sister who is sinning...going to them, then if they persist, involving the elders, and if they continue kicking them out of the church. That is judging in my book.

It is written in Matthew 18:15-20 too. I see this as a different scenario than judging. This is dealing with rebellion according scriptures not our own judgments. All other references to this is still regarding rebellion not judgement. We can only point them to this rebellion and if they refuse we are to get them out lest they become a stumbling block to others in the congregation. I see a difference here. Executing them for the rebellion would be judgement. "Spare the rod, and spoil the child" supports this idea. I see this as being done to correct/reprove not judgement.

I see this as being done to correct/reprove not judgment.

I define judgment as follows:

noun: the act of judging or assessing a person or situation or event
noun: (law) the determination by a court of competent jurisdiction on matters submitted to it
noun: the capacity to assess situations or circumstances shrewdly and to draw sound conclusions
noun: the cognitive process of reaching a decision or drawing conclusions
noun: an opinion formed by judging something
noun: ability to make good judgments
noun: the legal document stating the reasons for a judicial decision

Using the definition of the word, easily shows when we evaluate a believers actions, make a decision it is not right, and then act on our decision, we have indeed passed judgment.

I am not implying we are judging their souls however.

In Matt. 7:1 It says don't judge, so that you won't be judged. From the Greek word it also means condemn. There is a difference. By your definition than everyday I am judging because I make decisions everyday of who to talk to and how to talk to them. By your definition I am wrong? Personally this frustrates me about the English language. Too many derfinitions for one vague word.

Matt 7:1 in context shows us we are not to prohibit all types of judging. (verse 16). There is righteous judgment and that is what Paul teaches when discussing how to discipline other believers.

Judgments are essential in order to fulfill the commandments that follow verse 1....it is necessary to discern dogs and swine from our own brethren. (v3-5).

It's always important to remember who the author is speaking too, believers or unbelievers, as well as keeping things in context.

Judging is something we do everyday, Christian or not.

I am not called to judge someone's soul though...or to be unfair, or self-righteous, or hypocritical.....see what I mean.

I am not called to judge someone's soul though...or to be unfair, or self-righteous, or hypocritical.....see what I mean.

I think we are saying the same thing just in different ways?

Then why do I see darkness at night? If it doesn't need something to reflect off of then darkness would not exist.

uh....what?  You see darkness simply because no light exists, not because it needs something to reflect off from. The sun isn't reflecting off anything during the day.  The light you get from the moon is reflected, but that has nothing to do with if you can see light without it being reflected.  If you don't understand why there is night and day, then you may want to revisit elementary school and learn about the rotation of the Earth.

Now, if you want to debate that there would be no "color" without reflection, then we have something to discuss.  There is no color in the dark because there is no light.  Colors are formed with light reflection (or lack thereof). 

On the contrary KarmaGirl,

If light didn't need to reflect off of something why do I see the reflection of the moon. Obviously the light shining on the moon shows that the light came from somewhere but you don't see the light UNTIL it reflects off the moon. It's there. When a laser is pointed at an object than by your definition with no particles in the air one should see a line not a dot on the wall.

If light didn't need to reflect off of something why do I see the reflection of the moon. Obviously the light shining on the moon shows that the light came from somewhere but you don't see the light UNTIL it reflects off the moon.

No.  You only see the moon BECAUSE the sun is reflecting off it.

If you think you need something reflecting light to be able to see it, what is the sun reflecting off from?

If you go out into space past our atmosphere, what does the sunlight look like?  It is brilliant white.  It's not reflecting off anything- but it CAN be seen.  Its COLOR is different on earth because it is filtered by our atmosphere.

A laser is not the same as "light".  A laser is coherent amplified light.  By nature, it is reflected to intensify its energy.