I am always thankful when deserving His wrath I receive His Mercy.

I know Him both ways.

I love Him still.

I know Him both ways.I love Him still.

me too

and.
i like that song that says "Hail Hail Lion of Judah. How powerful you are."
it's one of my favorites.

i love when people find contradictions, and when they try to prove them, they contradict themselves....

i love when people find contradictions, and when they try to prove them, they contradict themselves

Yes, in this instance this atheist basically wanted to show how awful and cruel God is and not worthy of our worship. It's funny how he never mentioned the love and mercy of God but only the wrath of God. God is both.

Most of the time tho, people make accusations against the bible saying it's full of contradictions but they never produce anything. Usually it's just something they have heard and repeated never checking for themselves. Satan is seen in scripture as the "accuser." He's still up to his old bag of tricks.....why? Cuz they still work. Just shows....there is nothing new under the sun.

Hi KFC, thanks for your reply. It’s interesting to hear your views about this topic. I think it's a significant one.

He is consistent with His holy nature and jealousy for his people.

I think that we belittle God if we believe that God is a jealous type. Jealousy, like insecurity, is a human weakness, which is overcome by cultivating a greater sense of self-worth and inner security. To me, belief in a jealous, insecure God, who loves conditionally, is a misguided belief, and has nothing to do with ultimate reality.

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword."

I believe that Jesus came as a sword against worldly standards, (i.e. against our world of ego). The world’s standards are different to the standards of the Heavenly world, of which Jesus is supreme head. (Remember when Pilate asked Jesus “Are you a King?”, Jesus replied, “My Kingdom is not of this world.” - John 18.33-36). Although from a worldly point of view, attributes such as humility, compassion, meekness, patience etc. may be forms of weakness, from Heaven’s point of view they are attributes of godliness and strength.

Principles of ‘might is right’, ‘survival of the fittest’ and ‘ego-power’ are strengths, but only in context with the world. In truth, it is counterfeit power. Spiritual wealth, such as compassion, patience, forgiveness and humility is authentic power. Divine, unconditional love is the ultimate power.

Only when they continually refuse does he judge and punish them for their wicked deeds.

This contradicts Jesus’ words to “Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who ill-treat you.” (Luke 6.27)

And what about verses such as those in which God ordered a man to be put to death for gathering firewood on the Sabbath (Numbers 15.32-36), or when He encouraged parents to stone their sons to death for being drunkards (Deuteronomy 21.18)?

I believe that the Bible is the ‘map’, rather than the territory. In my opinion, verses which describe God as a jealous tyrant are inaccurate parts of the map, coloured by man, rather than by God. Even though parts of the Bible might seem to portray an inaccurate map, its substantial body contains a wealth of wisdom, insight and meaningful literature, all of which formulate a stark revelation of the Truth.

How can we know which verses represent an accurate part of the map and which verses don’t? I believe the key is to align such verses with the compassionate capacities of our heart. What does our heart have to say? Rest assured, the compass within our heart will lead us to know that "God is love".

True wisdom, sponsored by the soul, would agree with verses like the following:

“I have the strength to face all conditions by the power that Christ gives me.” (Philippians 4.13)

“Fear not, for I am with you.” (Isaiah 41.10)

“Dear friends, let us love one another, because love comes from God.” (1 John 4.7)

“Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who ill-treat you.” (Luke 6.27)

“For the Kingdom is not a matter of words, but of power. Which do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a whip, or in a spirit of love and gentleness?” (1 Corinthians 4.20)

“There is a season and a time for every purpose under Heaven.” (Ecclesiastes 3.1)

“God is love” (1 John 4.16)

etc. etc.

It is true that only a small percentage of the Bible expresses negative, spiritually bankrupt principles. Rest assured, this small percentage is coloured by man, not God.

We should remember that love is spiritual wealth. Even though many human beings are somewhat bankrupt in the spiritual department, God has an infinite supply of it. Love is ‘for-giving’, and God would never tire of showing love, forgiveness or patience to His children. By definition, God is infinitely secure, and to me, it makes no sense to claim that God possesses character weaknesses like jealousy, insecurity, or tyrannical tendencies.

Incidentally, it’s within the human potential to accumulate enough spiritual wealth in order to love unconditionally. We don’t have to feel hurt, jealous, or insecure if other people don’t give it back, or if they treat us unfairly or badly. It all depends on how well developed our inner muscles are, and how much spiritual wealth we have accumulated on our journey so far.

I think that overall, we can afford some healthy breathing space from extreme Scriptural fundamentalism. I don’t believe that the Bible is infallible. But I have great respect for people who believe that it is, and I think we should believe whatever we feel is right.

True wisdom, sponsored by the soul, would agree with verses like the following ...

Just wanted to add that I think that 1 Corinthians 2.6-16 is one of the most profound passages in the Bible. It also expresses that there's a difference between worldly wisdom and spiritual wisdom.

This passage is great too: "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."
- 1 Corinthians 13.12

There's so much nutritious fodder in the Bible, it's wonderful. To keep quoting it will just get boring, so I'd better refrain.

Quite simply, God is unknowable to mortal man. We do not have the capacity to know him as we know our parents or children. Having said that, we attempt to assign human qualities to him so we can then bring some understanding. And we fail. The Bible is one such instrument. God did not write it, and even if one accepts it was devinely inspired, we are still left with assigning Human terms to that which we cannot begin to describe. So errors are going to be made. Perhaps not from man's perspective, but definitely from God's.

Quite simply, God is unknowable to mortal man. We do not have the capacity to know him as we know our parents or children. Having said that, we attempt to assign human qualities to him so we can then bring some understanding. And we fail. The Bible is one such instrument. God did not write it, and even if one accepts it was devinely inspired, we are still left with assigning Human terms to that which we cannot begin to describe. So errors are going to be made. Perhaps not from man's perspective, but definitely from God's.

I agree with you Dr. Guy. God's infinite Being, as a totality, cannot be comprehended by our finite minds. But I think that we are still able to understand the basics of His divine nature. In my opinion, claims that God is loving, graceful and forgiving, are more aligned with Truth than claims that God is jealous, tyrannical and angry.

God is a God of justice and the wickedness of certain nations could not go unchecked and condoned. Therefore he did call for destruction of certain nations.

but what kind of justice orders babies to be smashed and pregnant women to be ripped up (Hosea 13:16)? I'm sure verses like this don't reflect the nature of our loving Father in Heaven. They are coloured by man's weaknesses and jealousies, for sure.

Anyway, the Holy Spirit will show us the right way, and we haven't been left without a Comforter.

I think that we belittle God if we believe that God is a jealous type. Jealousy, like insecurity, is a human weakness, which is overcome by cultivating a greater sense of self-worth and inner security. To me, belief in a jealous, insecure God, who loves conditionally, is a misguided belief, and has nothing to do with ultimate reality.

God says himself he is a jealous God. Here's an example...."You shall not bow down yourself to them nor serve them for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God......Deut 5:9. Also check Ex 20:5, 34:14, Deut 4:24, 6:15 etc.

There is such a thing as a Godly jealousy. It's not like human jealousy.

Our emotions are driven by self. God is driven by love for us. Since when are we jealous for someone ele's good?

Paul mentions this as well . "For I am jealous over you with Godly jealousy. for I have espoused you to one husband that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ." 2 Cor 11:2.

This contradicts Jesus’ words to “Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who ill-treat you.” (Luke 6.27)

Not really. When the bible seems to us to be contradictory....it's usually our understanding. The answers are in there. It reconciles very nicely. Here Jesus is telling us that we are to treat our enemies with respect. Our being kind, loving, respectful even to our enemies brings glory to God. When asked....and this does get noticed., we can tell them it's not us but we are doing what Christ wants us to do. That's being salt and light. I believe that's why we are on earth. First to find God and then to bring him glory. Some never find him. Some are not very good once they do find him to bring Glory to Him.

Also in Romans we're told NOT to take vengeance. It's God's job. He wants us to love and be kind.......so no contradiction here. It's only God who is to take matters into his hands not us. He's also talking individual vs corporate. As we go out into the world....a Christian should be known as a person of peace.....not war. But that doesn't mean there is not such a thing as a "just war." Remember all the talk about this when we went to Iraq in the beginning? Romans 13:1-2 gives insight here.

God also says that the Kings and Rulers are put in their places by God himself....."By me Kings reign and princes decree justice. By me princes rule and nobles, even all the judges of the earth." Prov 8:15-16

How can we know which verses represent an accurate part of the map and which verses don’t

I would say the bible is like a giant puzzle that gets put together. All the pieces fit. You just have to be patient and work it out. I can assure you that there is not one piece in the bible that should not be there. It fits perfectly. I'm still working on it but am finding pieces almost every day. It's awesome when another piece gets fitted in. The more you read, the more you find.

Just wanted to add that I think that 1 Corinthians 2.6-16 is one of the most profound passages in the Bible. It also expresses that there's a difference between worldly wisdom and spiritual wisdom.

Yes very nice. This section has tons of stuff in it. But basically saying that the wisdom of man cannot save us. It's only by the spirit of God can a man understand God and he does reveal himself to us . This is done by revelation, illumination and inspiration.

I don’t believe that the Bible is infallible. But I have great respect for people who believe that it is,

*smile* always the diplomat Andy. Yes that would be me. But I'd like to ask.....why don't you believe this?

You are very unllike the author of the book you sent me an excerpt from. There he was all about God's hate and wrath and here you are all about God's love. You two should get together to balance each other out. God is both one to be feared and one to be loved. I guess it depends which side of the fence you're standing on.

God is unknowable to mortal man

Hmmmm Knowing about God is different than Knowing God. It's like reading a book about marriage and knowing about it vs being married and experiencing it.

We can't "know" God completely, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he's unknowable to us. Jesus said..."You see me , you see the Father." . We see thru the glass darkly. But he has given us a glimpse of himself in Christ. God is Spirit. Christ is God cloaked in human flesh. Peter said ....."Grow in Grace and Knowledge of our Lord.....to him be Glory for now and forever. 2 Peter 3:18.

Remember Jesus came so that we could know God and come to the saving knowledge of the truth. But like I said to Andy it's only by the HS can this happen. Jesus said this: "All things are delivered of me by my father and no man knows who the Son is but the father and who the father is but the son and he to whom the Son will reveal him." Luke 10:22

God did not write it, and even if one accepts it was devinely inspired, we are still left with assigning Human terms to that which we cannot begin to describe. So errors are going to be made

Well God didn't pick up the pen but I do believe he "wrote it. Peter says "no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation for the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man but Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the HS. 2 Peter 1:20.

Anyway, the Holy Spirit will show us the right way, and we haven't been left without a Comforter

This deserves a big......AMEN!!

Hmmmm Knowing about God is different than Knowing God. It's like reading a book about marriage and knowing about it vs being married and experiencing it.

My point exactly. 

This deserves a big......AMEN!!

AMEN!!

I don’t believe that the Bible is infallible. But I have great respect for people who believe that it is,

I'd like to ask.....why don't you believe this?

Some of the ugly and negative verses in the Bible don’t quite square up with the God that I’ve got to know and love in my heart, KFC. I’ve also found that most of the ‘jealous God’ type verses in the Bible reflect too much human pettishness, rather than the divine qualities of God.

would say the bible is like a giant puzzle that gets put together. All the pieces fit.

That depends on your point of view. From what I can see there’s a few pieces that don’t fit. But I accept that we all see things through different lenses, and we’re not all going to agree.

God says himself he is a jealous God. Here's an example...."You shall not bow down yourself to them nor serve them for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God......Deut 5:9. Also check Ex 20:5, 34:14, Deut 4:24, 6:15 etc.

That’s circular reasoning sweetheart. I believe that some of the Bible has been influenced by man’s input, including verses that describe God as jealous, tyrannical or insecure. Fundamentalism is a good thing for the younger souls, but I think I've had my fill of it in the past. I find it too suffocating now, but that's just me. It clearly suits you KFC, and you ought to stick with it babe. God has ways of reaching everybody and suiting everyone's tastes, and that's all part of His infallibility.

Having said that, we attempt to assign human qualities to him so we can then bring some understanding.

Anthropomorphism. I knew I'd get a chance to use that word again! ROFL

Well God didn't pick up the pen but I do believe he "wrote it. Peter says "no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation for the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man but Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the HS. 2 Peter 1:20.

Amen!

Fundamentalism is a good thing for the younger souls, but I think I've had my fill of it in the past. I find it too suffocating now, but that's just me. It clearly suits you KFC, and you ought to stick with it babe. God has ways of reaching everybody and suiting everyone's tastes, and that's all part of His infallibility.

My... how very generous (and condescending) of you, Andy! ... I imagine you patting KFC on the head and sending her along her way like a "good little girl" with this comment. Forget that the last sentence of this particular riff makes God not "infallible" but "inconsistent." When God says there is one way, He means that there is one way. You can choose to believe whatever you like... that doesn't change the truth of His Word.

Speaking as a "younger soul," I'll stick with the God who has proved Himself to me over and over... by being consistent with His Word, and by revealing His hand in my life in ways that I simply cannot ignore or brush off as coincidence. I love that my Lord is big enough to be sovereign over the universe and yet personal enough to attend to my seemingly insignificant needs. I love the God of the Bible. My God.

Relativism may be very comfortable for some... even comforting, but that doesn't make it accurate, and it will be of small comfort in the end. There IS such a thing as truth, and knowing the Truth is what sets you free.

"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ," (Col. 2:8)

Can you say "relativism"? The truth is that God is gracious, compassionate, slow in anger, abounding in love... but also that He is just and righteous, and those aspects of His nature demand a penalty for sin. That's the wonder of God... that the justice of God sees what I've done... all my sin... but His mercy sees me through the Son and His death on the cross. He paid my debt and wrote "paid in full" with His blood. That's what it's all about... and the beauty of my salvation. The two mesh perfectly into the deepest love I have ever known.

I have no problem whatsoever reconciling a God of justice with a God of love. It's a perfect fit.

Apologies if I sounded condescending, HC. I'm sure I ought to just remain quiet, or leave, at times. But I enjoy chatting about it, and I find KFC very endearing to be honest (there I go again!) But hey, I'm just telling it the way it is from my own point of view. I promise there's no ego playing around here.

When God says there is one way, He means that there is one way.

The way that we believe is "right" depends on which Holy Book we adhere to, as long as we approach the issue from a fundamentalist point of view. If a Christian fundamentalist had been born into a loving Muslim household, then as sure anything they would now be preaching the Qur'an, and wouldn't give a hoot about what the Bible says.

I think the trouble with fundamentalism is that it turns a blind eye to large chunks of reality, (for example, to other religious beliefs and views; to the size and age of the universe etc). Yet because of the nature of fundamentalism, which is like a little bubble world, circular reasoning abounds, so by definition, the blind spots are perpetuated by fundamentalism's narrow scope. I don't find this irritating, mind. I just find it endering and intriguing.

I have no problem whatsoever reconciling a God of justice with a God of love. It's a perfect fit.

I can’t see the fit between some of the verses, and especially not with my experience of God. What are your views about the verses mentioned earlier? Other people don't seem to want to engage with them, and I'm interested to hear other people's views, especially from within the fundamentalist camp.

God encouraged parents to stone their sons to death if they are drunkards (Deuteronomy 21.18); said fathers should eat their sons (Ezekiel 5:10); demanded mass exterminations (Exodus 32:27, Exodus 20:5 and many other verses), ordered babies to be smashed and pregnant women to be ripped up (Hosea 13:16), punished people with snakes, dogs, dragons, drunkenness, swords, arrows, axes, fire, famine, and infanticide etc etc. etc.

But these verses aren't the only reason why I don't believe the Bible is infallible. The concept of an infallible Word of God is all part and parcel of the fundamentalist mindset, which I don't adhere to (for reasons that I'll keep to myself this time.)

My... how very generous (and condescending) of you, Andy!

It's all a healthy discussion at the end of the day, HC, so no harm done I hope.

I can see that silence would have been better than those last 2 posts of mine. It's all too condescending and I'm just churning out the same old stuff. But we're all in the same boat down here on earth, and there's room for growth for us all

I'd still love to hear others views on this topic though