Does God Change
Published on January 28, 2006 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Religion
Hopefully Andy reads this because it's inspired by him by his question to me on another thread.

A frequent accusation against the bible is that God is a God of wrath in the OT and of love in the NT.

The OT contains many stories of God's judgment and wrath. Bible accusers claim this demonstrates a primitive, warlike God in contradiction to a loving Savior that Christ depicts. Jesus tells us to turn the other cheek afterall.

While they seem to be in conflict, reflection will show otherwise. Jesus said himself that the OT could be summed up by the first two commandments, to love God and to love your neighbor. It's the same in the NT. He also declared that God in the OT was a God of mercy and love rather than sacrifice, Matt 9:13, 12:7.

You can see this attitude in scripture in the OT such as Ezek 18:23..."Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked......and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?"

God is a God of justice and the wickedness of certain nations could not go unchecked and condoned. Therefore he did call for destruction of certain nations.

God is a God of justice and of second chances. We see many times that he is very patient. His desire is not to punish them , but he is consistent with His holy nature and jealousy for his people.

Examples would be the Amorites. God gave them hundreds of years to repent but they did not, Gen 15:16. Noah preached 120 years before the flood yet they laughed and scoffed. Christ said the same would be the case before he returned. IWhat are we seeing?

The correct OT picture of God is one of a very patient God who gives people many opportunities to come to him and turn from their ways. Only when they continually refuse does he judge and punish them for their wicked deeds.

Many would be surprised to find out the strongest statements of judgment come from Jesus himself. In Matt 23 he lashed out at the religious leaders of his day calling them hypocrites and false leaders, and informing them their eternal destiny was eternal separation from God.....another way of saying hell.

He also said that his mission is not to unite but divide. "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword." He also says that families will turn against each other as a result of his word. Sound familiar?

Also Jesus himself spoke more about hell than he did heaven. Judgment as well as love is scattered thru the NT and we see mercy as well as judgment thru the OT. God doesn't change. His message is the same. When you read both testaments.....the way they were intended, you will see they reveal the same just God. He is rich in mercy, but will not let sin go unpunished.

The examples given by an atheist writer on the wrath of God to prove that this is not a God of love but hate shows his lack of understanding. Closer inspection of those verses does indeed show the wrath of God but for a reason. God did call for the execution of wicked people. He used others as instruments to carry out his judgment. Yes he did. This does not violate the commandment to not commit murder. To kill as in a war and to take vengeance yourself in the act of murder are two different things. The verse given in Ex 32:27 shows that Aaron was the most responsible for the worship of the golden calf but yet because of the mercy of God not only was he spared but later would be the first High Priest. Yes God called for their punishment and 3,000 Israelites died that day. But notice.....they were naked and worshipping a calf, an idol. This was a direct high-handed violation against God. Paul warned about this in 1 Cor 10:7. It's still revelant today.

Many of the examples given in the OT by this atheist show the raised, clenched fist in defiance against God's commands . Direct acts of rebellion. To God rebellion is like the sin of witchcraft. Who is the father of rebellion? Who rebelled first? In one verse cited by this atheist, Ex 20:5 no mention is made of the very next verse which states..... " and showing mercy to thousands of them that love me ......"

So basically I'm saying ........it's context, context, context. God is a God of Wrath and also a God of Love. He's called the Lion of Judah and the lamb of God. He came the first time as a meek little lamb, but don't be fooled. When he comes back it will be as the Lion of Judah. All the promises came true the first time.....why wouldn't they for the next?


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on Jan 30, 2006
God encouraged parents to stone their sons to death if they are drunkards (Deuteronomy 21.18); said fathers should eat their sons (Ezekiel 5:10); demanded mass exterminations (Exodus 32:27, Exodus 20:5 and many other verses), ordered babies to be smashed and pregnant women to be ripped up (Hosea 13:16), punished people with snakes, dogs, dragons, drunkenness, swords, arrows, axes, fire, famine, and infanticide etc etc. etc


I thought I answered this in the piece I just wrote here. While I didn't use every verse you gave me I used many of them and basically it all came down to rebellion.

There is nothing in Jewish history that shows that parents stoned their children...so take a deep breath here Andy. If you read the passage on that you will see the parents if they had an issue would bring the son to the elders. The elders (wise Godly men) would be the ones to carry out the sentence if need be. This was more of a strong statement from God saying how much he detests rebellion. It started right in the garden with Adam and Eve.

The reason why God didn't put up with these high handed clenched fists in the face of God was because He had called the Jews to be light and salt to the heathen world around them. They were to represent Him and they were not doing so. In order to bring others to God we have to show them God in us. They were behaving like the heathen and worshipping other gods and constantly rebelling and that's not a good thing.

It may sound funny but the reason we see the wrath of God is because of love. He knew that leaving them to revile in their sin would only be the death of the nation and to all that were watching from the outside. Leaven is a picture of sin. Why? Because like leaven, sin grows and spreads. It has to be stopped before it takes over completely.

If you look in Acts 5 you see this same principle played out in the story of Ananias and Sapphira his wife. This was the beginning of the church. Both were taken out before what they did corrupt the brand new baby church.

on Jan 30, 2006
It may sound funny but the reason we see the wrath of God is because of love


People can't accept it from God but they have no problem accepting it from lesser beings like humans.

My kids see my "wrath" they see my judgment of their actions. They also see my love. And I do those things because I love them.

I don't understand what is so hard to reconcile. If mere mortals can do these things for their children, how much more can we expect of a Holy God?
on Jan 30, 2006
Apologies if I sounded condescending, HC. I'm sure I ought to just remain quiet, or leave, at times. But I enjoy chatting about it, and I find KFC very endearing to be honest (there I go again!) But hey, I'm just telling it the way it is from my own point of view. I promise there's no ego playing around here.

I have no doubts that KFC can hold her own, and I happen to know that she enjoys a good debate as much (if not moreso) than the next guy... no worries. It was specifically "young souls" in regards to fundies that I found to be a bit over the top. I'm not upset or offended... just chuckling.

Only when they continually refuse does he judge and punish them for their wicked deeds.


This contradicts Jesus’ words to “Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who ill-treat you.” (Luke 6.27)

Actually, it doesn't. Jesus told US to love our enemies, do good to those who hate us, bless those who curse us and pray for those who ill-treat us. What God is sovereign to do Himself is an entirely different scenario. I am not God and I do not have the right to put myself in His place.

And what about verses such as those in which God ordered a man to be put to death for gathering firewood on the Sabbath (Numbers 15.32-36), or when He encouraged parents to stone their sons to death for being drunkards (Deuteronomy 21.18)?

Before Christ came, man had an obligation to fulfill the law. Christ came and He was the fulfillment of the law.

Romans 8

Free from Indwelling Sin

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

The law could point out sin... it had the power to condemn... but it was powerless to save. Galatians tells us that we are freed from having to keep the law...

Galatians 4

1 Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born[a] of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of[b] God through Christ.

Why go back to that?

All that said, salvation is -- and has always been -- through faith. If there were such a thing as the center of eternity, the cross of Christ would be it. All of the OT looks forward to it and believed in the Messiah to come... all of eternity present looks back toward it. Christ's death did it all. It is finished.

As for Hoseah, as KFC said... it's all about context.

"Samaria is held guilty. For she has rebelled against her God. They shall fall by the sword. Their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child ripped open." This chapter is about the judgment of wayward Israel. The next speaks of her eventual restoration. Samaria was the capital city and the driving force behind the northern Kingdom's rebellion. God was perfectly just in meting out this punishment. Rather than try tear apart the Scripture by choosing to see inconsistencies, why not be grateful that God saved any at all? Not one of us is righteous.. not one. Not one of us seeks after God... not one. HE, in His infinite mercy and love, seeks out US and saves us. Instead of labeling Him inconsistent or unfair because He acted in a way that I am uncomfortable with, I choose to be thankful that He doesn't choose to deal the same with me. He certainly would be within His rights to if He so chose.

CS Lewis has a great passage in one of his Narnia books that I love... I posted about it on OleTeach's blog... Link

Young Jill comes upon a stream and is incredibly thirsty. She approaches the stream to drink, but stops dead in her tracks when she sees the frightening lion Aslan next to the stream...

The Lion said to her, "Are you not thirsty?""I'm dying of thirst," said Jill. "Then drink," said the lion. "May I-could I-would you mind going away while I do," said Jill. The Lion answered this only by a look and a very low growl. And, as Jill gazed at its smooth motionless bulk, she realized she might as well have asked the whole mountain to move aside for her convenience. The delicious rippling noise of the stream was driving her nearly frantic. "Will you promise not to-do anything to me, if I do come?" said Jill. "I make no promises," said the lion. Jill was so thirsty now that, without noticing it, she had come a step nearer. "Do you eat girls?" she said. "I have swallowed up girls and boys, women and men, kings and emperors, cities and realms," said the lion. It didn't say this as if it were boasting, nor as if it were sorry, nor as if it were angry, it just said it. "I dare not come and drink," said Jill. "Then you will die of thirst," said the lion. "Oh dear!" said Jill, coming another step nearer. "I suppose I must go and look for another stream then." "There is no other stream," said the lion.

Wow. How I can relate to that! My desire is to grow ever closer to the Lord... to really come to know Him, but that means letting go and trusting Him, wherever He may take me. I've learned from past experience that the path isn't always easy. He makes no promises that it will be a nice level walk... in fact, reality has been filled with caverns to trudge through and mountains to scale... but the joy of knowing that each step has brought me closer to Him far surpasses the fear. The cry of my heart is to follow Him and know Him more and more... this surprising, all powerful, dangerous, mysterious God. The God who doesn't eliminate my struggles, but meets me right in the thick of them and sustains me through them... to dare to come closer to Him and allow Him to have His way with me. Yeah... that's what I want.

I know from past experience that it can be a dangerous thing to ask for. I once asked God to refine me and two weeks later I nearly lost my four-year-old daughter. Did God bring that trial into my life on purpose to fulfill my wish? I don't know.. not necessarily. What I do know is that He used it to accomplish my heart's cry... to be made more like Him. I grew so much during that time of testing. I could just have easily have blamed God for the fire... taken Him to task and demanded answers... turned my back on Him for being "unjust". I certainly didn't think I'd done anything to deserve that pain and suffering... and I know my daughter didn't. At least not anything specific, aside from general sin. But I didn't see it that way. Each step of the way I saw the hand of a loving God guiding us through... He didn't take away my crisis, but He walked with me and held my hand as I muddled through. I'd like to think that even if she had died, I would have ascribed glory to His name and given Him praise. I can't know that I would have done that for sure... since it didn't happen that way... but I know that I trust God. Implicitly. Without reservation. With my life... and even with my chidren's lives.

I don't get to know all the answers. People say, "When I get to heaven, I'm going to ask God about this..." Ya know what? I don't think I'm going to CARE. I think I'll be so enthralled with being in His presence that all those nagging questions will fade in the light of His glory. I may never have the answers to the things I wonder about now. I'm ok with that. To some extent, it's what faith is about. All I can do is keep on keeping on... keep studying... keep walking with my God. I have tasted and seen that the Lord is good. I guess that's how each of us must come to decide.

Didn't mean to jump all over you, Andy. Sorry if it seemed that way.

Enjoy your debate
on Jan 30, 2006
People can't accept it from God but they have no problem accepting it from lesser beings like humans.

My kids see my "wrath" they see my judgment of their actions. They also see my love. And I do those things because I love them.

I don't understand what is so hard to reconcile. If mere mortals can do these things for their children, how much more can we expect of a Holy God?

Excellent analysis! You go, girl
on Jan 31, 2006
I surrender! I admit that I've been walked all over. You've got good substance and a clear model of the world, and I do love that. God bless you guys,

on Jan 31, 2006
God bless you guys

Back at ya, darlin! Always a pleasure discussing. ><
on Jan 31, 2006
That's an HC hug *g*
on Feb 01, 2006
Andy

I love discussing with ya....don't ever be worried about exposing your views to me. I love to share and give my reasons for what I believe in. And we (I speak for HC as well) have no intention of walking over anyone. We want to walk arm and arm with you to the other side of eternity.

Thanks HC for your comments as well......been having some technical difficulties here......gotta get my computer fixed~~
on Feb 01, 2006
That's an HC hug *g*


We want to walk arm and arm with you to the other side of eternity.


Thanks so much for that. That’s very sweet of you. Big hugs to you back!!

I've learned from past experience that the path isn't always easy. He makes no promises that it will be a nice level walk... in fact, reality has been filled with caverns to trudge through and mountains to scale... but the joy of knowing that each step has brought me closer to Him far surpasses the fear. The cry of my heart is to follow Him and know Him more and more... this surprising, all powerful, dangerous, mysterious God. The God who doesn't eliminate my struggles, but meets me right in the thick of them and sustains me through them... to dare to come closer to Him and allow Him to have His way with me. Yeah... that's what I want.

I know from past experience that it can be a dangerous thing to ask for. I once asked God to refine me and two weeks later I nearly lost my four-year-old daughter. Did God bring that trial into my life on purpose to fulfill my wish? I don't know.. not necessarily. What I do know is that He used it to accomplish my heart's cry... to be made more like Him. I grew so much during that time of testing. I could just have easily have blamed God for the fire... taken Him to task and demanded answers... turned my back on Him for being "unjust". I certainly didn't think I'd done anything to deserve that pain and suffering... and I know my daughter didn't. At least not anything specific, aside from general sin. But I didn't see it that way. Each step of the way I saw the hand of a loving God guiding us through... He didn't take away my crisis, but He walked with me and held my hand as I muddled through. I'd like to think that even if she had died, I would have ascribed glory to His name and given Him praise. I can't know that I would have done that for sure... since it didn't happen that way... but I know that I trust God. Implicitly. Without reservation. With my life... and even with my chidren's lives.

I don't get to know all the answers. People say, "When I get to heaven, I'm going to ask God about this..." Ya know what? I don't think I'm going to CARE. I think I'll be so enthralled with being in His presence that all those nagging questions will fade in the light of His glory. I may never have the answers to the things I wonder about now. I'm ok with that. To some extent, it's what faith is about. All I can do is keep on keeping on... keep studying... keep walking with my God. I have tasted and seen that the Lord is good. I guess that's how each of us must come to decide.


HC, that’s a powerful testimony. I completely agree with you that tribulation makes the soul stronger if we’ve got a wise attitude.

I believe that the world’s negativities are not forms of punishment, or wrath, but rather compassionate opportunities, created in love, to advance spiritual strength and maturity. We all have a cross to bear in some form or other, to be used for the ongoing development of our soul. The greater the challenge, the greater potential for spiritual advancement.

This is why I disagree with the Bible’s view that God “punishes” people with grim things in life. The Biblical model of the world that you described is sound and cohesive in itself, according to your interpretation of God’s love, but I personally believe that there’s a larger sphere of reality outside the Biblical worldview.

I believe that there's a loving, higher purpose to everything, and at the end of the day a greater good arises because of our hardships, rather than in spite of them. Certain circumstances in life can discipline the soul, for sure, but I don’t believe that God punishes in the way that the fundies would have us believe. I also don’t believe that non-Christians will perish in hellfire for all eternity. I’m sure that all religions are in touch with exactly the same God, only from a different perspective and cultural context. I believe that the universe is a lot bigger and older than a literal interpretation of Biblical doctrine would have us believe too.

These views are outside the traditional fundamentalist scope, yet I would feel too untrue to myself and to God to believe otherwise. What are you views regarding other religions, and people who live lives adhering to (and finding peace in) non-Christian religious views?

"Samaria is held guilty. For she has rebelled against her God. They shall fall by the sword. Their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child ripped open." This chapter is about the judgment of wayward Israel. The next speaks of her eventual restoration. Samaria was the capital city and the driving force behind the northern Kingdom's rebellion. God was perfectly just in meting out this punishment. Rather than try tear apart the Scripture by choosing to see inconsistencies, why not be grateful that God saved any at all? Not one of us is righteous.. not one. Not one of us seeks after God... not one. HE, in His infinite mercy and love, seeks out US and saves us. Instead of labeling Him inconsistent or unfair because He acted in a way that I am uncomfortable with, I choose to be thankful that He doesn't choose to deal the same with me. He certainly would be within His rights to if He so chose.


I can see your logic, and as you said it fits well with the Biblical worldview. In my own view, it's not wholly aligned with ‘reality’, though. If we believe that God punishes in such ways then we’d probably conclude that the tsunami, or the earthquakes of last year, were deliberate acts of God in order to punish people and release His wrath on them for their wrongdoing, or for worshipping different gods. But I don’t believe that this was the case. I’m sure many people who died in those events were good hearted Christians who lived normal, peaceful lives in Christ.
Relativism may be very comfortable for some... even comforting, but that doesn't make it accurate, and it will be of small comfort in the end. There IS such a thing as truth, and knowing the Truth is what sets you free.

Everything is relative (including all our views), except for God, the Absolute. I believe that our "knowing God" is our glimpsing the Truth.

Anyway, I know that these can be heavy issues. But I’m just saying why I need breathing space from extreme Biblical leanings.
on Feb 01, 2006
That's ok Andy.....we still love ya.............

on Feb 02, 2006
Well you did say you didn't mind hearing my views. I love you too, all of ya!
on Feb 02, 2006
(I wouldn't mind hearing more views from fundamentalists about where other religious folk fit in? It's true that most other religionists stick with their religion all throughout their life, and most have as much passion for God as Christians)
on Feb 04, 2006
You can be religous but lost. You can do all the right things and go thru the motions but not have a personal relationship with God. Doesn't matter what religion you are. You could be sitting next to born again Christians week after week but still not come to the truth. It's not about religion but all about relationship.

Many do stick with "their religion" all thru life. Jesus said those not willing to leave Father and Mother for my sake are not worthy to be call my disciple. How many times have you heard so and so left their tradition only to be blackballed by their families? Happens quite often. Look at Abraham. His father was an idol worshipper. He worshipped the moon god. I believe that was the start of Islam even before Mohummud. But God called him out out of Ur. He told him to leave his family and follow me.

Abraham did and is called the Father of Faith and the Father of Many Nations. God blessed him in a mighty way but his beginnings were most likely steeped in heathen culture.

There are many stories all over the globe of people leaving their traditions and following the God of the bible.
on Feb 05, 2006
Well. Here we are again, in a sea of Christian anthropomorphism run mad.

We'll start at the beginning. Because you (any of you) experience God in some particular way does not mean that God is confined to that experience. Because one experiences the wrath of God does not mean that another will not experience mercy. Because one experiences mercy does not mean that another, in exactly the same circumstances, will not experience wrath. You cannot argue from the particular to the universal because, of necessity, the universal always includes, transcends, and exceeds every particular.

The most any believer can say while claiming to be truthful, rather than merely imaginative, is this: "I have experienced God in this way and not another." None of you have any reason to draw from your particular experiences some universal principle about the 'nature of God'. We know as much about the nature of God as nematodes do about the nature of particle physics - nothing at all.

We may, as the Medieval Scholastics did, deduce something about the nature of God using syllogistic logic - but all doing so does for us is to tell us about the nature of syllogistic logic and what may be deduced using it, and nothing at all about the nature of God, because the terms of syllogistic logic are human terms, predicated on the natural limitations of human intellect and intelligence, and therefore incapable (as all paricular creatures must be) of comprehending the universal that includes and exceeds the particular.

All of your particular experiences and their narration here may be summed up in the phrases 'hot air' and 'nonsense on stilts'. You know nothing but your own prejudices and communicate nothing but the degree to which you are ignorant.

And please do not bleat to me about the revelations to be found in holy texts: once again, they're nothing but your revelations. As an example, let me point you to the revelation of Joachim of Flores, a Christian mystic of the 12th century. It was revealed to him that Christian history was to encompass three ages of the world. The first age, that of the Father, was to be an age of judgement in which the holiness of God and his righteous wrath against sin was to be exemplified.

The second age, that of the Son, was to be an age in which sacrifice (both the direct sacrifice of the Son and the indirect, participatory sacrifice of the rest of creation) was to be revealed through the suffering of innocents in the world. The third age, that of the Spirit, was to be an age in which both judgment and sacrifice were to pass away since all men would live under the direct and immediate guidance of the Holy Spirit, in both this world and the world to come.

Joachim found his revelation both in the bible of his day and his experience of God, and his revelation bears no more relevance to the maunderings of self-empowerment through Christ (myself, I always thought that the point of Christianity was to die to self and live for Christ), prosperity for the believer and his family through Christ, or any of the other self-aggrandizing projects of contemporary Christianity, do to the asceticism of the ancient Essenes - who also claimed to know the nature of God.

There is no point in talking 'about' God, either to other Christians or to non-believers, because no one has anything to say that's more nearly true than what anyone else has to say.

No, you don't communicate God or your faith by talking. You communicate both by keeping your mouths shut (better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth, speak, and prove it beyond all doubt)and living both.

You want to make converts, spread the Word, and be great in the Kingdom of Heaven? Then sell what you own and give the proceeds to the poor. You want to be a Christian? Then live without immorality, back-biting, and gossip, and let your works of selflessness and devotion to others speak for you.

And whatever else you do, don't sit around in public patting yourselves on the back for what you think you know about the 'nature of God'.
on Feb 05, 2006
There is no point in talking 'about' God, either to other Christians or to non-believers, because no one has anything to say that's more nearly true than what anyone else has to say.


It’s healthy to have a hearty discussion about God though. No harm in expressing a few views. I agree with you that there should come a time when we start to walk the path, rather than talk it.

The third age, that of the Spirit, was to be an age in which both judgment and sacrifice were to pass away since all men would live under the direct and immediate guidance of the Holy Spirit, in both this world and the world to come.


I adhere to that revelation. I think that’s the next phase of our human evolution.

All of your particular experiences and their narration here may be summed up in the phrases 'hot air' and 'nonsense on stilts'. You know nothing but your own prejudices and communicate nothing but the degree to which you are ignorant. … And whatever else you do, don't sit around in public patting yourselves on the back for what you think you know about the 'nature of God'.


You’re in the same boat as us, then. The only way not to would be to remain silent, and not to post anything at all.
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