A Marriage Made In Paradise
Published on May 14, 2010 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Religion

Last weekend I was asked to speak at a woman's luncheon for Mother's Day.  When I inquired as to what they wished for a subject matter they left it up to me.  So I thought about it for a day or so.  Then I came up with Eve.  Why not?  Afterall she was the mother of us all.  Since I've never heard a Mother's Day Sermon on this topic I decided I'd tackle it myself.   

Woman are important to God and He makes that very clear thru His written Word.  Even so, the message gets clouded by the cultures.  In the Eastern culture we know that women are surpressed.  In the Western culture women are aggressive and domineering more than ever.  During the days of Christ the Jews kept their women as subservient.  I heard that that it's written about the Torah that it would be better to burn it than to teach it to women! 

But what does the bible say about woman's role in society?  What is their purpose?  Jesus did much to elevate women during His time on earth and they loved Him.  It was to a woman He first announced He was the Messiah.  It was to women He first revealed Himself as risen from the dead.  He delivered at least one woman from unjust justice. 

Women were used mightily by God.  I think of Rahab who God used to save two spies facing sure death as a result if caught.  I think of Miriam who was a prophetess and ministered alongside her brother Moses.  Deborah was a judge and leader who was chosen to deliver God's people during the terrible days of the Judges.  Esther helped save her people, the Jews, from sure extermination and Lydia was a business woman who was instrumental in starting a first century church out of her home. 

So we come to Eve.  We know very little of this first lady.  We do know she was God's final creative work in the first week.  She was also a companion for Adam.  But there's more. 

Everything started out well in the garden although it didn't end that way thanks to Eve and her husband.  Eve led her husband into direct violation of God's revealed will to them.  So they were banished from Paradise.  She is a very human portraid of falling into sin but also of picking up the faith afterwards. 

She was created for a unique role in creation.  She was to minister to Adam and with Adam being his help-mate.  She was designed to complete him as well as assist him.  We read this in Genesis 1:26-28:

"And God said Let us make man in our image after our likeness and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the air and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.  So God created man in his own image in the image of God created he him, male and female created he them.  And God blessed them and God said to them, Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth." 

Did you see the word "them?"  This was for both of them. A job for two.  These things were too great for them to do alone.  We see a few things about God's purposes for mankind here. 

1.  To be like Him; to reflect God's image in creation.  It took both of them to do this.  We think of God as a He and that pronoun is used but it takes both man and woman to accurately reflect God's image.  We think of God as mighty, powerful, just, logical, strong, etc. but He's also depicted in scripture as loving, tenderhearted, merciful, gracious etc.  We see both male and female characteristics in Him. 

2.  They were to rule over creation.  They were given authority over all the earth.  Together.

3.  They were to reproduce; be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth.  Together.

So zooming in on Eve let's look at why she was created.  What is her purpose for being created?  Gen 2:18-22:

"And the Lord said It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper for him.  And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every fowl of the air and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them and whatsoever Adam called every living creature that was the name.  And Adam gave names to all cattle and to the fowl of the air and to every beast of the field but for Adam there was not found a helper for him.  And the Lord caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and he slept and he took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh.  And the rib which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman and brought her to the man." 

1.  Adam was not complete by himself.

2.  It was not good.  Even in Paradise something was not good.  Seven times, it was mentioned in the first chapter after God created, God said that "it was good" until we get here to 2:18 which says "it was not good." 

3.  Man was completed with need.  He was created incomplete.  He was made complete with Eve. 

4.  She was to be a helper suitable for him. 

Looking a bit further we can see some principles for the marriage relationship right here that brought this first couple together in Holy Matrimony. 

Genesis 2:23-24

"And Adam said this is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh she shall be called Woman because she was taken out of Man.  Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother and shall cleave to his wife and they shall be one flesh."

We see that God brought Eve to Adam.  It wasn't Adam's job to find a mate which makes me wonder looking around today at all the broken marriages.  How many consulted God in the choosing of their mate?   What would it have been like if they did?  God know more than we do so why don't we ask Him first?  

Unlike the animals she was like him.  She was bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh.  She was perfect for him.  The relationship necessitated him to leave his mother and father.  Obviously this was meant for future generations because these two were a special first couple with no parents.  This marriage required cleaving and the Hebrew word implies "to be joined by commitment."   Marriage is a commitment not a feeling or an emotion.  We need to stick it out, stay together and work things out as much as possible with us. 

Marriage results in being one together.  This one flesh points to the physical body but in principle also includes all that a person is; mind, emotions, will etc.  One cares for the other as one would care for oneself. 

And marriage results in nakedness without shame.  They had no shame.  They were naked and it was good.  This, again, goes beyond the physical.  We need to be open and up front with each other.  There should be no hiding, no secrets from each other. 

So everything started out well.  Until Eve was tempted.  Then everything changed.  She entered into a discussion with a serpent.  Is it no wonder women and snakes don't get along today?  We'll start there next time.

 

 

 

 

 

 


Comments (Page 4)
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on Jun 09, 2010

Now Elizabeth as well as Mary had no idea that Jesus was God. [/quote]

Both of them believed the Child in Mary's womb was the Lord God.

First, keep in mind the background of the Blessed Virgin and St. Elizabeth...they were faithful Jewish women well versed in OT Scriptures especially the prophets who foretold many things about the Redeemer who would come. Isaias prophecied the Messias Christ would be the Emmanuel, God with us....God the Mighty.

Also very important to keep in mind the gifts of the Holy Spirit....one who is filled with the Holy Spirit would get a super abundant gift…in this case.... knowledge to enable them to discover the will of God in all things.

Here's how we know they knew...so many clues just in St.Luke 1:26-38 which is the Mystery of the Annunciation to Mary and the Incarnation.

In post 37, you try to convince me that St.Luke's use of the word "Lord"  isn't meant as God but it most definitely does.

As to St. Elizabeth, who conceived St.John the Baptist in her old age,  let's go back to St.Luke 1:24-25, "After these days, his wife Elizabeth conceived, and for five months she hid herself, saying, Thus the Lord has done to me in the days when He looked on me..."  Here, St.Elizabeth said "the Lord" and she understood and meant "the Lord" as God.

Now go to St.Luke. 1:28, Gabriel said to the Virgin Mary, "...Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." Once again we see Gabriel meant "the Lord" as God.

The Virgin Mary was troubled by this saluation and asked how this could be...Gabriel told her, "Fear not, thou hast found grace with God. Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call His name Jesus."

Here is the next big clue...the name Jesus, what does it mean? What did the name mean to Mary? Our Lord's name Jesus in Hebrew is Joshua or Jeshua which means "Jehovah is salvation."   Also, Jesus is the Messias that is the "Anointed One" the personage foretold in recorded Jewish Scriptures to come and redeem mankind...these are the same Scriptures that both Jewish women were well familliar with. 

When our Lord consented to accept "the Christ" or simply "Christ" as His official designation, He claimed to be the prophesied Messias. Dan. 9:25-26; St.Matt. 16:17, 20, ; 26: 63-64; St.Luke 9:20-21; etc.

 

You won't call the Blessed Virgin the Mother of God, but Saint Elizabeth did....Read St. Luke 1:35 and 43...Gabriel told the Blessed VIrgin,  "....and the Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the HOLY which shall be born.....". (Who is the HOLY if not God?)

and then the Blessed Virgin Mary went to visit her cousin Elizabeth...and upon hearing Mary, Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost and asked v. 43, "And whence is this to me, that the MOTHER OF MY LORD should come to me?"

St. Elizabeth knew without doubt that Mary was carrying the Lord God in her womb.And what happened as a result? the next verse 44, "For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe (St.John the Baptist) in my womb leaped for joy."

Verse 44 is even more proof...although St.John the Baptist was conceived in Original Sin, he was born sinless becasue he was sanctified in his mother's womb by the presence of Jesus Christ in the womb of Mary. On receiving this special grace of God, St.John rejoices by leaping with joy in his mother's womb thereby fulfilling the Archangel's prophecy 1:15.

 The Blessed Mother knew her Son was the King of kings, the Lord of lords as she was there when the Three Wise Men came and "fell down and worshipped" the Baby in the manger. St.Matt. 2:10-11.

 

on Jun 09, 2010

I don't know why my last post came out the way it did.

The very first sentence is your quote and the rest is my rebuttal.

on Jun 09, 2010

She didn't quite understand exactly the full meaning of who her child really was until the crucifixtion.

She knew that her Child was God and that's evident by being there when the Three wise Men adored Him.

Now Elizabeth as well as Mary had no idea that Jesus was God. They were not told that only that he would be the one they had been waiting for. Remember the Jews had waited for the one like Moses who would come to set them free. Nobody got the fact that he was God until after the resurrection.

It was before Christ's Resurrection. How many times did Jesus perform miracles that only God could do...the first one at His mother's intercession at the wedding at Cana when He changed the water into wine? She knew He was God..what she didn't know was exactly when His time had come to go public with the fact.  And how many times did He tell the Jews and the disciples that He was the I AM or that He was one with the Father? He Himself said He was God many times over before He died, KFC. His faithful followers believed He was who He claimed to be but they didn't fully understand until the First Penetcost day when the Holy Spirit descended upon them and taught them all things...then it was crystal clear and they were able to preach Christ to all nations after that.

Even in the first few centuries and even today many question the deity of Christ.

Ya, the first heretics.

Was he really God? Was he a teacher? Even Peter stood up and said "you are the Christ the son of the Living God." Peter didn't call him God there either.

Agree there were a variety of opinions that were held during Jesus' time as to who He really was. Because He had no crown, princely throne, treasures or army as have kings, the majority of Jews could not see in Him a King, the Anointed One, whom they wanted to free them from the yoke of Caesar. 

Was he really God? .... Even Peter stood up and said "you are the Christ the son of the Living God." Peter didn't call him God there either.

Here you go again..because the Bible doesn't have those exact words you miss the forest for the trees. Actually, it's worse than that...you miss the true theological meaning behind the context of the passages.

 

In St.Matt. 16:15 Our Lord put St. Peter to the test. "Whom do you say I am?" St.Peter answered, "Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God." And there is no way St.Peter could have known that at this point but the next verse 17 tells us that this knowedge of who Jesus was came to St.Peter diirectly from God, through a special revelation, for as Jesus said, "flesh and blood has not revealed it to you, but My Father who is in Heaven."

From this we must understand that St.Peter knew Christ to be the Son of God in a unique sense; the expression was used by St.Peter in the sense of equality with God the Father having all the power there is in Heaven and on earth. 28:18. 

Turns out it was God Himself who through special revelation told St.Peter who Christ was. God called Jesus God and told St. Peter that. And from this we know Christ rewarded St. Peter by giving him the keys to His kingdom, that is, He made him the earthly leader and authority in the Church Christ promised to establish.

Then comes v. 20 and Jesus commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ. He didn't want that publicized since the Jews connected the Messias with a political and secular conqueror, but Jesus did not come for either of those goals. St.John 18:36.

 

on Jun 10, 2010

St. Elizabeth knew without doubt that Mary was carrying the Lord God in her womb.And what happened as a result? the next verse 44, "For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe (St.John the Baptist) in my womb leaped for joy."

Verse 44 is even more proof

Without a doubt?  more proof?  This isn't proof forget about anything else.   Let me show you plenty of proof they didn't know he was God....

Nobody knew he was the Messiah.  Even Mary.  Same with the Apostles.  That's why Christ asked them "who do you say that I am" well into his ministry with them.  He wouldn't have asked the question had they known. 

His mother pondered things in her heart we read a few times but she didn't know.  It never said she did.  In fact at least once she and his brothers tried to stop him thinking he might get killed.  They may even have thought he was losing it. 

Remember Peter tried to stop Jesus from going to the cross and Jesus said "get behind me Satan."   He also cut the ear off a soldier when the soldiers came to arrest Jesus.  If Peter knew this was God would he have done these things? 

All the Jews knew was that a Messiah would come someday.    Even Leauki would tell you this.  They weren't expecting God in the flesh.  They were expecting another prophet like Moses.  That's why John wrote what he did when he was much older.  God in the flesh. 

Remember in John 1:21 the Priests and the Scribes asked this of John the Baptist:

"Are you Elijah?  And he said I am not.  Are you THAT prophet (Deut 18:15)?  And he answered No.  Then said they to him, Who are you?  That we may give an answer to them that sent us.  What do you say of yourself?" 

They were expecting a Prophet.  Not God.  Then when Christ met the woman at the well in John 4 she said this:

"I know that when the Messiah comes which is called Christ when he is come he will tell us all things.  Jesus said to her, I that speak to you am he." 

She dropped her pot and ran.  Did you know that she is the first one to whom Christ revealed he was the Messiah?  He didn't tell her he was God.  He only said He was  the Messiah they had been waiting for. 

Also Peter wouldn't have denied him had he known He was God himself.  After the cock crew it said in Luke that he remembered the word of the Lord and wept bitterly.  Somewhere it said (maybe more than once) that the disciples remembered things like he would raise after three days.  It's pretty clear they didn't put the whole thing together until AFTER the resurrection because no one can raise from the dead but God. 

Even at his death a centurion said "surely this was a righteous man."  He didn't say God. He said man.  Do you think the Pharisees and other Jews would have put Christ to death if they thought he was God?  Nobody knew.  That was part of the plan.

After the death it said in Luke 24:

v11:  And they remembered his words and returned from the tomb and told all these things to the eleven (apostles) and to all the rest (Jesus's family and other friends).  It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James and other women that were with them which told these things to the Apostles.  And their words seemed to them as idle tales and they believed them not."

If they knew He was God they would have believed them.  Peter then ran ahead and it said when he looked in the tomb he was wondering about all this.  Then right after that two of them met Jesus on the road not recognizing him.  He then began to open the scriptures starting with Moses and the prophets all things concerning himself.  Then in 24:45 it says this:

"Then opened he their understanding that they might understand the scriptures."  Then right after that in v52 we see "they worshipped Him."  AT THE VERY END OF LUKE AFTER THE RESURRECTION!!!

That's when they got it.  We do not see any worship until then and when Thomas found out.  That's what we are to do with God in our presence.  Worship HIM.

So your saying that the baby in Elizabeth's womb jumped, therefore she knew Jesus was God is bad theology.  It's only in your mind not in the scriptures.   More than a baby jumped here.  You are jumping to conclusions because you are tryng to marry tradition with scripture and it doesn't work. 

 

 

 

 

on Jun 10, 2010



Nobody knew he was the Messiah. Even Mary. Same with the Apostles.

KFC,

In post 46 I cited the Scriptural passages which soundly refute your claim. Those passages are the ones you must address starting with Isaias and then St.Luke and St.Matt.  

They were all faithful Jews who were familiar with Isaias who prophecied the Messias to come is God.

In Isaias, God made known in terms clearer than ever before that Christ is God Himself. "....God Himself will come and will save you." 35:4.  Isaias said "His name shall be called Emmanuel", which means God with us. 7:14.  In 9:6, "...God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace."    

After giving the full context of what "the Lord" means in St. Luke, I ask 3 questions:

You won't call the Blessed Virgin the Mother of God, but Saint Elizabeth did. St. Luke 1:35 and 43...Gabriel told the Blessed VIrgin,  "....and the Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the HOLY which shall be born.....". (Who is the HOLY if not God?)

and then the Blessed Virgin Mary went to visit her cousin Elizabeth...and upon hearing Mary, Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost and asked v. 43, "And whence is this to me, that the MOTHER OF MY LORD should come to me?" (Elizabeth is filled with the HS. Is it not the gift of the Holy Spirit that moves Elizabeth to...know that Mary was carrying Jesus and..to call Mary "the Mother of my Lord" thereby showing that Mary is the Mother of God? )

And lastly, 

 The Blessed Mother knew her Son was the King of kings, the Lord of lords as she was there when the Three Wise Men came and "fell down and worshipped" the Baby in the manger. St.Matt. 2:10-11.

 

 

 What you are missing is that the BLessed Virign Mary and the Apostles all believed...they were the very first Christians who believed the Messias Christ is God. They believed by faith and would not have full understanding until Pentecost when the Holy SPirit descended upon them and other disciples and gave them the knowledge of all Christ's truths.

And yes, in the case of a few, St.Peter and Thomas, their faith wavered from time to time, but in the end they persevered in the Faith. And that should be the lesson to us as well.  

 

 

 

on Jun 10, 2010

In post 46 I cited the Scriptural passages which soundly refute your claim.

only because you say so but there's nothing sound there Lula. 

the Three Wise Men came and "fell down and worshipped" the Baby in the manger. St.Matt. 2:10-11.

Ok, this is a good point...BUT who said there were three?  I don't know exactly what these wise men knew.  But if you go up to v6 they told Herod a Governor would come out of Bethlehem.   They didn't say God would come in the form of a baby.  They said a Governor or basically an earthly king.  They were quoting Micah 5:2.  They understood one was supposed to come from God.  That's all they knew.  A deliverer would come.  A Messiah like Moses only He would be greater than Moses and they thought Moses was quite special.   

But no where does it say they knew he would be God.  They knew this was a gift from God and this was supernatural.  But remember they were warned in a dream by God himself.  So I dare say they couldn't be thinking this baby in a manger was God too because they didn't understand or know about any trinity. 

Notice clearly it says they worshipped this child knowing he was sent from God.  They did not worship his mother.   

What you are missing is that the BLessed Virign Mary and the Apostles all believed...they were the very first Christians who believed the Messias Christ is God.

not until AFTER the resurrection.  Had they believed before why would Peter deny Christ?  Because he didn't know.  Why would Mary and Peter try to stop his ministry a couple of times?  Because they didn't know.  They knew he was sent from God.  They understood he was God's son.  Yes.  But the Jews only believed in ONE God (Deut 6:4).  They didn't get the Trinity like we do today.  They knew nothing about the trinity.  They didn't understand it.  Christ told him just before he died about the Comforter that would come.  They had no idea about that before. 

No Lula, you're benefitting from 20/20 hindsight and going by your church tradition when you say some of this stuff.  When you dig thru the plain scriptures it says another thing.  When you read it, feel it, taste it, ask God to open your eyes and see what they saw.  As you go thru and read the gospel you can only come to the conclusion they didn't really know at the time, who was in their presence.  Had they known they would have surely done things differently. 

If they all knew at the start this was God in the Flesh they would have been on their faces continually because that's what happens when you encounter God face to face.  Instead they were shielded from this knowledge until Christ opened their eyes, as I wrote above, at the end just before he left.  Their response?  On their face just like we will be some day.

 

 

 

on Jun 10, 2010

Now Elizabeth as well as Mary had no idea that Jesus was God.

Nobody knew he was the Messiah. Even Mary. Same with the Apostles.

Lula posts

In post 46 I cited the Scriptural passages which soundly refute your claim.

only because you say so but there's nothing sound there Lula.

Not I, but Scripture says so, KFC. Scripture, exactly what you asked for .....irrefutable, infallible Scripture, Isaias, St. Luke, and St.Matthew, all sound as can be, solidly refute your claim.

Nothing sound there you say?

St.Luke 1:35, 43

Gabriel told the Blessed Virgin, "....and the Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the HOLY which shall be born.....".

To the Blessed Virgin Mary hearing Gabriel say this to her....Who is "the HOLY" if not God?

and then the Blessed Virgin Mary went to visit her cousin Elizabeth...and upon hearing Mary, Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost and asked v. 43, "And whence is this to me, that the MOTHER OF MY LORD should come to me?"

Here, Elizabeth filled with the Holy SPirit most definitely knew Mary was the Mother of God for she called her such. When you uput it all in its full context as I did in post 46, there is no other explanation or meaning to this Scripture.

 

 

on Jun 10, 2010

lula posts:

The Blessed Mother knew her Son was the King of kings, the Lord of lords as she was there when the Three Wise Men came and "fell down and worshipped" the Baby in the manger. St.Matt. 2:10-11.

Ok, this is a good point...BUT who said there were three? I don't know exactly what these wise men knew. But if you go up to v6 they told Herod a Governor would come out of Bethlehem. They didn't say God would come in the form of a baby. They said a Governor or basically an earthly king. They were quoting Micah 5:2. They understood one was supposed to come from God. That's all they knew. A deliverer would come. A Messiah like Moses only He would be greater than Moses and they thought Moses was quite special.

But no where does it say they knew he would be God. They knew this was a gift from God and this was supernatural. But remember they were warned in a dream by God himself. So I dare say they couldn't be thinking this baby in a manger was God too because they didn't understand or know about any trinity.

Notice clearly it says they worshipped this child knowing he was sent from God. They did not worship his mother.

KFC,

Yes, from this Scripture we don't know how many Wise Men there were. In answer to your question, Tradition holds that there were three Wise Men..Kaspar, Balthasar and Melchoir (but we know you reject Sacred Tradition!).

St.Matt. 2:10-11 makes a rock solid point that Mary knew that the young Child Jesus was the Holy God and so did the Wise Men for that matter. While in the presence of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Wise Men "fell down and worshipped" Him. Plain and simple, the Wise Men fell down and worshipped Him becasue they believed He was God. There is no other explanation or meaning to this Scripture.

You reference verse 6 but your explanation of it makes me wonder how much you've actually read. You say they didn't know He would come in the form of a Baby, yet in verse 2, it says,  the Magi came and asked Herod "...Where is He that is born king of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to adore Him." "He that is born.." is definitely a Baby and they want to adore Him indicates that He is the Holy God. And verse 16, Herod sends soldiers to kill all the male infants that were in Bethlehem and in its borders from 2 years old and younger.

Verses 6-8 supply even more proof text to my point that they knew that Jesus was the Holy God.  From this it turns out that it's not Jerusalem that produces the Messias, but rather Bethlehem. At the end of verse 6, St.Matthew adds "who shall rule my people Israel". You say they understood one was supposed to come from God that a deliverer would come ..a Messias like Moses...and I say yes this and more...they knew the Messias was God. They were familiar with OT prophecy of Micah 5:2 which  prophesises the birth of Christ and it proves my point. 

"...out of thee (Bethlehem) shall He come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel; and His going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity."   The underlined means that He who as man shall be born as God was born of His Father from all eternity.

Right there the prophecy of Micah finds its fulfillment in St.Matthew 2:5-6 and offers indisputable proof that the Messias Christ was God for no one but God goes forth from the beginning from the days of eternity.

Now go to verse 8, and we find that Herod tells the Magi to go to Bethlehem and when they find the Child to tell him so "that I also may come and adore Him." So even here, we learn that dispicable Herod knew who He was.

Another thing that shows my point that they knew the Christ-Child was God is that the Magi brought Him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. That they would offer Him their treasures and adore Him fulfills the prophecies from Is. 60:5 and adore Him from Psalm 72:10-15. Each gift signify's something about Christ... gold singnifies His kingship, incense His Divinity since incense was offered to God  and myrrh signifgied Christ's mission to redeem mankind by His death since myrrh was used for embalming.   

You ask for Scriptural proof and I've brought it to you. By now, I'd apply the saying "you can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink" but in your case there is something more going on. You not only reject Sacred Tradition, but you scorn Sacred Scripture in favor of following the spirit of Protestantism which is wholly negative about the Blessed Virgin Mary's extraordinary role in salvation history and denies she is the Mother of God.

Lula posts:

What you are missing is that the BLessed Virign Mary and the Apostles all believed...they were the very first Christians who believed the Messias Christ is God.

They believed Christ was God is all I'm saying here....Agree...they didn't fully understand the details...and the same of us today...we believe but still don't fully understand for they are true mysteries indeed.

 

on Jun 11, 2010

They believed Christ was God is all I'm saying here....Agree...they didn't fully understand the details...and the same of us today...we believe but still don't fully understand for they are true mysteries indeed.

and I will say they didn't know UNTIL after the resurrection. 

The reason Lula is you have to understand their thinking.  They were looking for a prophet; a Messiah..not a God only one sent from God. 

I figured out you must not be good at puzzles.  I notice you take one piece and go off on it without taking the other pieces into consideration.  So instead of seeing the whole forest, you're just looking at one tree and trying to fit all the tree pieces into that one tree when there are other tree pieces that fit other trees in the forest. 

I've shown you point blank why they couldn't have known He was God.  I've taught the book of John so many times now I can't remember but one thing that keeps coming up over and over is Christ kept trying to get the people to think spiritually and they kept thinking in the physical.  Christ talked of water, they thought physical water.  Christ talked about bread, they thought manna like Moses gave them.  Christ talked being born again and Nicodemus asked how can one enter the womb a second time?  Over and over it was like this.  He always used physical things to teach a spiritual truth and it wasn't coming easy for them.  It's like that for us today, the closer we get to God the more spiritual we become but still, the flesh and spirit are in constant battle. 

Yet here you are over 2,000 years later saying "oh yeah they understood right off he was God." 

Not one of your scriptures you put up there prove your point.  But not for lack of trying on your part.  I've asked you questions and you've not answered them so I'll ask again.

1.  If Mary thought he was God, why did she and his brothers try to stop him wanting him to come home with them? 

2.  If Peter thought he was God why did he try to stop him from going to the cross? 

3.  Why did Peter cut off the soldiers ear in the garden at the arrest?  Did he think he was more powerful than God? 

4.  Why is Thomas' new understanding so relevant when he saw the risen Christ?  Why did he get down on his face and say "my Lord AND MY GOD?" 

5.  Why didn't we see the title Thomas used for Jesus at that moment during the whole 3 1/2 years prior? 

6  Why didn't the Apostles believe the women when they came from the tomb saying Christ had risen?  The Jews knew that ONLY God could raise someone from the dead.  We know that from Abraham. 

7.  Also, if they thought he was God, why was he crucified?  Judas, who had been with him 3 1/2 years was the leader.  Certainly he didn't think he was God.  You don't have God crucified do you? 

8.  Why wasn't the inscription over his head "God of Nazarath" instead of "King of the Jews?" 

9.  When Lazarus died why didn't his sister Martha implore Christ to raise him up knowing He was God?  Instead she said she knew he'd be raised in the last day. 

10.  Why did Martha answer Christ "yes, Lord I believe that you are the Christ the Son of God which came into the world"  when He asked her a question about Himself?   Why didn't she say He was God himself? 

11.  Why did Christ asked his disciples, "Who do you say that I am" if they already knew?

12.  Why did the disciples flee like cowards when Christ was taken?  If they knew He was God would they have run like that?

 

 

 

on Jun 11, 2010

Not one of your scriptures you put up there prove your point.

Funny that you keep insisting this yet refuse to acknowledge my point about Isaias who prophecied the Messias to come is God  and answer my questions concerning the passages found in St.Luke and St.Matthew.

Last time:

They were all familiar with Isaias. Christ fulfilled Isaias who had not only prophecied the Messias but that the Messias is God.

In Isaias 35:4  "....God Himself will come and will save you." and  "His name shall be called Emmanuel", which means God with us. 7:14.  In 9:6, "...God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace."   

 

With Isaias in mind and given the entire context of St. Luke chapter 1....go to verses 35 and 43.

Gabriel told the Blessed Virgin, "....and the Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the HOLY which shall be born.....".

If not God, who then did the Blessed Virgin think "The Holy" is that Gabriel said would be born as a result of the Holy Ghost overshadowing her? Who is "the Holy" if not God?

 

Shortly afterwards, the Blessed Virgin Mary went to visit her cousin Elizabeth...and upon hearing Mary, Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost and asked v. 43, "And whence is this to me, that the MOTHER OF MY LORD should come to me?" Who is "my Lord" if not God?

St.Matt. 2:10-11 makes a rock solid point that Mary knew that the young Child Jesus was the Holy God and so did the Wise Men for that matter. While in the presence of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Wise Men "fell down and worshipped" Him. Plain and simple, the Wise Men fell down and worshipped Him becasue they believed He was God. Who were the Wise Men worshipping if not God?

Your refusal in answering these questions goes to the fact that St.Luke 1 reveals that both were filled with the gifts of the Holy Spirit, knew the Christ Child was God and that the Blessed Virgin Mary was the Mother of God, a Catholic doctrine you reject.

 

 

 

on Jun 11, 2010

They believed Christ was God is all I'm saying here....Agree...they didn't fully understand the details...and the same of us today...we believe but still don't fully understand for they are true mysteries indeed.

and I will say they didn't know UNTIL after the resurrection.

Christ certainly claimed to be God by His words and actions (miracles) plenty of times before the Resurrection. The Blessed Virgin Mary and the Apostles believed but didn't fully understand everything until after they received the gifts of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost. At the same time the majority of Jews saw and heard but didn't believe.

I've taught the book of John so many times now I can't remember

Speaking of St.John.....let's go to chapter 10.

Did Christ tell the Jews "I and the Father are one" before or after the Resurrection?  What did Jesus mean when He said  "I and the Father are one" KFC? The Jews hear Him say He is God and that's why they tried to stone Him. They thought it was blasphemy He was speaking. These hearers rejected this revelation of the mystery of the Incarnate God, refusing to examine the proof Jesus offered them.

Verses 31-42 tell us that our Lord, in order to affirm His Divinity once more, uses 2 arguments which his adversaries cannot refute...the testimony of the Scriptural prophecies and that of His own miracles.

I've shown you point blank why they couldn't have known He was God.

Let's continue with verses 33-42 for they are worth noting....(that means they also make my point!....they believe Jesus was God.)  

33 The Jews answered him: For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, maketh thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them: Is it not written in your law: I said you are gods? 35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God was spoken, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Do you say of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world: Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though you will not believe me, believe the works: that you may know and believe that the Father is in me, and I in the Father. 39 They sought therefore to take him; and he escaped out of their hands. 40 And he went again beyond the Jordan, into that place where John was baptizing first; and there he abode.

41 And many resorted to him, and they said: John indeed did no sign. 42 But all things whatsoever John said of this man, were true. And many believed in him.

What does verse 42 say, KFC? ..."many believed in Him" meaning that He was God.

So, it's by all these Scriptural passages that I claim that the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Apostles and the other disciples believed He was God. Obviously they didn't understand EVERYTHING ALL AT ONCE. It was a learning process as He revealed to them more and more details about Himself and the Christian Faith during His 3 year public ministry.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

on Jun 12, 2010

In Isaias 35:4 "....God Himself will come and will save you." and "His name shall be called Emmanuel", which means God with us. 7:14. In 9:6, "...God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace."

interesting you didn't put the whole of 35:4 down...speaks volumes Lula.  Why didn't you put down "Your God will come with vengeance?  This has NOTHING TO do with the first coming.  Nothing.   Jesus came to seek and to save.  He said many times he didn't come to judge (John 8)

you're twisting scripture to make it fit your RCC tradition.  It doesn't.  Isaiah 35 has nothing to do with 7:14 and 9:6.  There's many scriptures in the OT that say God himself will save them but it has nothing to do with Christ of the NT.   That's why you're putting it like this. 

This is very bad Lula.  You didn't put the rest of the scripture purposely.  You will have to answer for this if you're teaching this.  Beware.  You are doing exactly what all false teachers/peachers do.  Taking this scripture and that, out of contex, cropping it, and making it say what they want it to say for the sake of their religious ideas.

What does verse 42 say, KFC? ..."many believed in Him" meaning that He was God.

it DOESN'T say that Lula.  You're ADDING to scripture.  It says they believed in him.  Yes.  Believed what?  That he was the Son of God?  That he was sent from God?  Yes.  Not that HE WAS GOD. 

That's why I told you at the end AFTER the resurrection scripture says Christ OPENED their eyes to the scriptures concerning Him.  They did NOT know until then.  That's why their reactions and attitudes totally changed.  It also helped they had the Holy Spirit's guidance showing them. 

You still are NOT answering my questions.  You will not because you have no intention of really seeking the truth. 

I'm done Lula.  There's not more I can say here.  It's a waste of my time and it's unbiblical to be going around and around like this.  Christ said "shake the dust off your feet and move on."  That's what I have to do. 

 

 

on Jun 12, 2010

In Isaias 35:4 "....God Himself will come and will save you." and "His name shall be called Emmanuel", which means God with us. 7:14. In 9:6, "...God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace."

interesting you didn't put the whole of 35:4 down...speaks volumes Lula. Why didn't you put down "Your God will come with vengeance? This has NOTHING TO do with the first coming. Nothing. Jesus came to seek and to save. He said many times he didn't come to judge (John 8)

Isaias 35 is filled with the promise of redemption and redemption came at Christ's First Coming. That's why Isaias 35 is read so often in Advent....the time leading up to Christmas....Christ's First Advent. Christ's First Coming is the time as you say above that Jesus came to seek and save.

  

interesting you didn't put the whole of 35:4 down...speaks volumes Lula. Why didn't you put down "Your God will come with vengeance? This has NOTHING TO do with the first coming. Nothing. Jesus came to seek and to save. He said many times he didn't come to judge (John 8)

Here's the entire verse....

From the Douay Rheims version....35:4 "Say to the fainthearted: "Take courage and fear not: Behold your God will bring the revenge of recompense, God Himself will come and save you."

From the KJV, "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not. Behold your God will come with vengence, even God with a recompense; He will come and save you."

So you're saying verse 4 refers to Christ's Second Coming? No way. That's utter nonsense because it will be the end of the world when Christ comes again to judge the living and the dead. Isaias 35:4 can't possibly fit with Christ's Second Coming in Judgment of the whole world.  

Verse 4, ".....He will come and save you." Here "He" is the Messias Christ, and it was at His First Coming that He came as the Redeemer/Savior and therefore fulfilled Isaias 35:4 to a "T".

Vengence here means God has vengence against sin and the devil and recompense is the Christ will make full satisfaction by His sacrificial death on the Cross.

 

 

  

 

on Jun 12, 2010

What does verse 42 say, KFC? ..."many believed in Him" meaning that He was God.

It says they believed in him. Yes. Believed what? That he was the Son of God? That he was sent from God? Yes. Not that HE WAS GOD.

In the case of Christ one does not exclude the other. St.John admits  this distinction when he says, "The Word was with God." yet asserts identiity in the divine nature when he adds, "And the Word was God".

And besides Christ showed the co-equality of the THree Divine Persons in the one single Divine Nature when He ordered the Apostles to baptize in the one name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

And remember Philip asked, "Lord show us the Father." ANd Christ replied, Phiilip have you not known Me?" He that sees Me sees the Father also."

 

 

 

on Jun 12, 2010

You still are NOT answering my questions. You will not because you have no intention of really seeking the truth.

I'm done Lula. There's not more I can say here. It's a waste of my time and it's unbiblical to be going around and around like this. Christ said "shake the dust off your feet and move on." That's what I have to do.

Oops, I posted those remarks before reading this.

KFC,

Just want you to know, I enjoy discussing Scripture with you.  

 

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