A Marriage Made In Paradise
Published on May 14, 2010 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Religion

Last weekend I was asked to speak at a woman's luncheon for Mother's Day.  When I inquired as to what they wished for a subject matter they left it up to me.  So I thought about it for a day or so.  Then I came up with Eve.  Why not?  Afterall she was the mother of us all.  Since I've never heard a Mother's Day Sermon on this topic I decided I'd tackle it myself.   

Woman are important to God and He makes that very clear thru His written Word.  Even so, the message gets clouded by the cultures.  In the Eastern culture we know that women are surpressed.  In the Western culture women are aggressive and domineering more than ever.  During the days of Christ the Jews kept their women as subservient.  I heard that that it's written about the Torah that it would be better to burn it than to teach it to women! 

But what does the bible say about woman's role in society?  What is their purpose?  Jesus did much to elevate women during His time on earth and they loved Him.  It was to a woman He first announced He was the Messiah.  It was to women He first revealed Himself as risen from the dead.  He delivered at least one woman from unjust justice. 

Women were used mightily by God.  I think of Rahab who God used to save two spies facing sure death as a result if caught.  I think of Miriam who was a prophetess and ministered alongside her brother Moses.  Deborah was a judge and leader who was chosen to deliver God's people during the terrible days of the Judges.  Esther helped save her people, the Jews, from sure extermination and Lydia was a business woman who was instrumental in starting a first century church out of her home. 

So we come to Eve.  We know very little of this first lady.  We do know she was God's final creative work in the first week.  She was also a companion for Adam.  But there's more. 

Everything started out well in the garden although it didn't end that way thanks to Eve and her husband.  Eve led her husband into direct violation of God's revealed will to them.  So they were banished from Paradise.  She is a very human portraid of falling into sin but also of picking up the faith afterwards. 

She was created for a unique role in creation.  She was to minister to Adam and with Adam being his help-mate.  She was designed to complete him as well as assist him.  We read this in Genesis 1:26-28:

"And God said Let us make man in our image after our likeness and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the air and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.  So God created man in his own image in the image of God created he him, male and female created he them.  And God blessed them and God said to them, Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth." 

Did you see the word "them?"  This was for both of them. A job for two.  These things were too great for them to do alone.  We see a few things about God's purposes for mankind here. 

1.  To be like Him; to reflect God's image in creation.  It took both of them to do this.  We think of God as a He and that pronoun is used but it takes both man and woman to accurately reflect God's image.  We think of God as mighty, powerful, just, logical, strong, etc. but He's also depicted in scripture as loving, tenderhearted, merciful, gracious etc.  We see both male and female characteristics in Him. 

2.  They were to rule over creation.  They were given authority over all the earth.  Together.

3.  They were to reproduce; be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth.  Together.

So zooming in on Eve let's look at why she was created.  What is her purpose for being created?  Gen 2:18-22:

"And the Lord said It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper for him.  And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every fowl of the air and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them and whatsoever Adam called every living creature that was the name.  And Adam gave names to all cattle and to the fowl of the air and to every beast of the field but for Adam there was not found a helper for him.  And the Lord caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and he slept and he took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh.  And the rib which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman and brought her to the man." 

1.  Adam was not complete by himself.

2.  It was not good.  Even in Paradise something was not good.  Seven times, it was mentioned in the first chapter after God created, God said that "it was good" until we get here to 2:18 which says "it was not good." 

3.  Man was completed with need.  He was created incomplete.  He was made complete with Eve. 

4.  She was to be a helper suitable for him. 

Looking a bit further we can see some principles for the marriage relationship right here that brought this first couple together in Holy Matrimony. 

Genesis 2:23-24

"And Adam said this is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh she shall be called Woman because she was taken out of Man.  Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother and shall cleave to his wife and they shall be one flesh."

We see that God brought Eve to Adam.  It wasn't Adam's job to find a mate which makes me wonder looking around today at all the broken marriages.  How many consulted God in the choosing of their mate?   What would it have been like if they did?  God know more than we do so why don't we ask Him first?  

Unlike the animals she was like him.  She was bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh.  She was perfect for him.  The relationship necessitated him to leave his mother and father.  Obviously this was meant for future generations because these two were a special first couple with no parents.  This marriage required cleaving and the Hebrew word implies "to be joined by commitment."   Marriage is a commitment not a feeling or an emotion.  We need to stick it out, stay together and work things out as much as possible with us. 

Marriage results in being one together.  This one flesh points to the physical body but in principle also includes all that a person is; mind, emotions, will etc.  One cares for the other as one would care for oneself. 

And marriage results in nakedness without shame.  They had no shame.  They were naked and it was good.  This, again, goes beyond the physical.  We need to be open and up front with each other.  There should be no hiding, no secrets from each other. 

So everything started out well.  Until Eve was tempted.  Then everything changed.  She entered into a discussion with a serpent.  Is it no wonder women and snakes don't get along today?  We'll start there next time.

 

 

 

 

 

 


Comments (Page 2)
13 Pages1 2 3 4  Last
on Jun 02, 2010

Let me ask again... where in scripture does it say that Mary was married to the Holy Spirit?

 Scripture doesn't say this and I never said such a thing.

This is what I wrote.

Afterall, the Blessed Virgin Mary was the spouse of the Holy Spirit and the Word became flesh.

And this was your reply:

Afterall, the Blessed Virgin Mary was the spouse of the Holy Spirit and the Word became flesh.

KFC posts:

Where in the world did you get this from? Scripture please? Mary married the Holy Spirit? Are you kidding? I've never ever heard such a thing nor can it be backed up with scripture. So Mary committed adultery when she married Joseph?

The first 2 questions make sense, while the others are you taking what I said and going off on a rather nutty tangent.

And back to the top of this post.....you then turn around and ask me to show where your nutty questons are found in Scripture.

 

 

 

 

on Jun 02, 2010

This is what I wrote.

Afterall, the Blessed Virgin Mary was the spouse of the Holy Spirit and the Word became flesh

Semantics Lula.  You don't like my nutty question because I'm reading you're saying Mary was married to the Holy Spirit?  Well isn't that what "spouse" means?

spouse

// // \"spouse", "6");interfaceflash.addParam("loop", "false");interfaceflash.addParam("quality", "high");interfaceflash.addParam("menu", "false");interfaceflash.addParam("salign", "t");interfaceflash.addParam("FlashVars", "soundUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fsp.dictionary.com%2Fdictstatic%2Fdictionary%2Faudio%2Fluna%2FS08%2FS0841300.mp3&clkLogProxyUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fwhatzup.html&t=a&d=d&s=di&c=a&ti=1&ai=51359&l=dir&o=0&sv=00000000&ip=62f4fa1f&u=audio"); interfaceflash.addParam('wmode','transparent');interfaceflash.write(); // ]]> [n. spous, spouz; v. spouz, spous] Show IPA noun, verb, spoused, spous·ing.
–noun
1.
either member of a married pair in relation to the other; one's husband or wife.
–verb (used with object)
2.
Obsolete . to join, give, or take in marriage.

 

 

 

ok then I'll play your "nutty" game...show me in scripture where Mary was the spouse of the Holy Spirit?  And stop dancing around the subject.  Just answer the question. 

 

on Jun 02, 2010

Last weekend I was asked to speak at a woman's luncheon for Mother's Day. .....Then I came up with Eve. Why not? Afterall she was the mother of us all. 

Woman are important to God and He makes that very clear thru His written Word.

Women were used mightily by God.

I showed you exactly where it says Eve was the mother of all living (Gen 3:20). So far you haven't proven your end of things. There's a reason for your skirting the issue. It's all tradition Lula. Not scriptural.

I agree that Eve was the mother of all the living..this is the least of it.

Since I've never heard a Mother's Day Sermon on this topic I decided I'd tackle it myself.

Besides...this article was about Eve. Not Mary.

And where in my view your omission of the BVMary speaks volumes.

Given that you wrote about mothers and emphasised that women are important to ALmighty God, I found it very sad that you would completely omit the BLessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of God. To me, she is the most important Mother of all mothers as our Redemption began from the moment in which she said be it done unto me.....and became the Mother of God. It is therefore reasonable, just and right that all Christians should honor Mary as the cause of our joy through whom our Redeemer was given to us.  

Both were in a state of grace, but Eve lost grace while Mary preserved it and increased it by corresponding with it. St.Luke 1:28;38. Eve thooughtlessly allowed herself to be deceived by the devil without asking herself whether it were a good or evil spirit who spoke through the serpent, but Mary pondered and asked herself whether the saluation of the angel came from God or not. St.Luke 1:28-30. Eve conversed with the devil for the ruin of mankind, Mary with the angel Gabriel, for the salvation of mankind. Eve sinned with unbelief, while Mary believed in the message God sent through Gabriel and freely agreed to it. v.38. Eve sinned by pride while Mary was always most humble. Eve was disobedient while Mary gave herself over entirely to God's will. Eve consented to sin: Mary to God's will. Eve by her pride degraded herself and brought sin and death on all mankind, while Mary by her humbleness was filled with grace and through her Divine Son gave grace and life to the world.

lula posts:

.......Who then is more important than the Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ? Oh wait....you've already answered...in your estimation Eve is. How incredibly sad!

You know what's really sad Lula? Someone who is so indoctrinated by a religion they don't see the obvious nor would they accept it if it were shown them. That is really sad.

And your Protestant religion has you so indoctrinated against the unique specialness of the Blessed Virgin Mary that you fail to recognize that EVE WAS THE MOTHER OF THE CURSE, MARY OF THE BLESSING.

I wonder would you ever dare speak of these striking contrasts between Eve and the Blessed Mother to other Protestants?

 

on Jun 02, 2010

and the dancing continues......

Given that you wrote about mothers and emphasised that women are important to ALmighty God, I found it very sad that you would completely omit the BLessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of God.

AGAIN...listen carefully.  This article was NOT about Mary.  It was about EVE.  Mary was NOT the mother of us all.  Eve was the mother of Mary.  She was the mother of us all.  You keep ignoring my requests for you to show me ANYWHERE in scripture where it says Mary is the mother of us all.  Instead you're like a two year old with a Mary tantrum. 

I left out many other mothers in scripture for this article.  One of the most sermonized mothers of all is Hannah and I didn't expound on her either.  Another is Naomi (Ruth's mil).  Soooooo what? 

EVE WAS THE MOTHER OF THE CURSE, MARY OF THE BLESSING.

I don't have a problem with that comparison but it still has nothing to do with my subject matter.  I didn't write about Mary.  I wrote about Eve.  You got a problem with Eve? 

I wonder would you ever dare speak of these striking contrasts between Eve and the Blessed Mother to other Protestants?

The bible doesn't make such contrasts so why should I?  If you notice in  Romans it's all about the contrast between Adam and Christ.  Not a word about Eve/Mary.  Why do you suppose? 

 

on Jun 02, 2010

lulapilgrim

Afterall, the Blessed Virgin Mary was the spouse of the Holy Spirit and the Word became flesh.

KFC posts:

Where in the world did you get this from? Scripture please?

lula posts:


It's there. Prophesied in Isaias and fulfilled in St. Luke and St. Matthew.

 

kfc posts

soooooo that's it? That's how you back up your statement with scripture? Hmmmmm.

You asked ....I supplied the Scripture and only some of it.

That the Blessed VIrgin Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit is a Divine Mystery given to us by God.

"Spouse" here is not as you think in the physical, natural, earthly sense, but in the supernatural sense.   

Isaias 7:14, prophecy gives us a hint..... "Therefore, the Lord Himself will give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel."

By whom shall a Virgin conceive?

Sacred Tradition....according to the Apostles' Creed tells us a little more..."I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary.... 

How shall the Virgin Mary conceive a Divine Son? Supernaturally.

This is confirmed in St.Luke's account of the Annunciation...1:26-46

26 And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. 33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man? 35 And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

36 And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren: 37 Because no word shall be impossible with God. 38 And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. 39 And Mary rising up in those days, went into the hill country with haste into a city of Juda. 40 And she entered into the house of Zachary, and saluted Elizabeth.

41 And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. 45 And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.

46 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. 50 And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him.

So here the prophecy of Isaias has clearly found it's fulfillment in Mary.

I understand that Isaias' "shall conceive" and the Apostles' Creed, "who was conceived by the Holy Spirit.." and St.Luke's v. 31, "Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb.."....to mean,

First that Almighty God has conferred upon the Virgin Mary a singular blessing for the entire human race. Here we start to understand the means by which in His Mercy and Goodness, He will accomplish His salvation plan.

Second,  Jesus Christ our only Lord and Son of God, when He assumed human flesh in the womb of the Virgin Mary was not conceived like other men, from the seed of a man, but in a supernatural manner transcending the natural manner, that is, by the power of the Holy Spirit, so that the same Person remaining God as He was from all eternity became man what He was not before.  

The Creed of the Council of Constantinople infallibly teaches, "Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from Heaven, and became incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man."

St.John 1:14 teaches the same truth of this most holy mystery when he declared the nature of the Divine Word, "I the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"..., and he concluded, "And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us."   So, the Word which is a Person of a Divine Nature, assumed human nature in such a manner that there should be one and the same Person in both the Divine and human natures.

Here we see the Blessed Trinity accomplishing the mystery of the Incarnation....the Son of God was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. At the instant the Blessed Virgin Mary said, be it done unto me according to thy word...the sacred body of Christ, Perfect God and Perfect man was immediately formed in her womb.

The Blessed Virgin Mary subjected herself to supernatural majesty and grace. The Gospels are clear that Christ was conceived by power of the Holy Spirit which "overshadowed" Mary. St. Joseph recives a dream of the Divine Majesty being enacted in Mary and we know how he responded.  St.Matt. 1:20.

 

 

on Jun 02, 2010

I wonder would you ever dare speak of these striking contrasts between Eve and the Blessed Mother to other Protestants?

Both were in a state of grace, but Eve lost grace while Mary preserved it and increased it by corresponding with it. St.Luke 1:28;38. Eve thooughtlessly allowed herself to be deceived by the devil without asking herself whether it were a good or evil spirit who spoke through the serpent, but Mary pondered and asked herself whether the saluation of the angel came from God or not. St.Luke 1:28-30. Eve conversed with the devil for the ruin of mankind, Mary with the angel Gabriel, for the salvation of mankind. Eve sinned with unbelief, while Mary believed in the message God sent through Gabriel and freely agreed to it. v.38. Eve sinned by pride while Mary was always most humble. Eve was disobedient while Mary gave herself over entirely to God's will. Eve consented to sin: Mary to God's will. Eve by her pride degraded herself and brought sin and death on all mankind, while Mary by her humbleness was filled with grace and through her Divine Son gave grace and life to the world.

The bible doesn't make such contrasts so why should I?

of course it does....everything stated above is Biblical.

 

 

on Jun 02, 2010

   

AGAIN...listen carefully. This article was NOT about Mary. It was about EVE. Mary was NOT the mother of us all. Eve was the mother of Mary. She was the mother of us all. You keep ignoring my requests for you to show me ANYWHERE in scripture where it says Mary is the mother of us all.

Here you go again...I never said that the Blessed Mother Mary is the mother of us all. Rather I wrote:   

Eve was, in a natural sense, according to the flesh, the mother of all the living and the Blessed Mother Mary was so in a supernatural sense the spiritual Mother of all the faithful.

Fact is we must understand that Eve is the mother of us in our earthly life...you know, the physical, fleshly life that eventually comes to an end...dies. By believing the serpent, Eve brought malediction and death on mankind while Mary became the instrument of Divine goodness in bringing life and benediction to the human race. From Eve we are born children of wrath...and from Mary we have received Jesus Christ and through Him are regenerated children of Grace. Mary in this sense is the Mother of Life.

You say that Eve was the mother of Mary and I say of Mary that she was the only exception as far as from Eve we are born children of wrath. That would put the Mother of God under Satan's influence and that she surely never. ever was.

Even if you don't agree, the eternal, omnipotent God prepared for Himself a worthy Mother. A Mother worthy to bear God in her womb is worth reflection (and I would think at least a mention in your article). God Himself rested in Mary's womb and subjected Himself to her. He honored her as only a Son of God could. The problem is that many not all Protestants (and some liberal Catholics too) have lost their sense of awe and wonder of how extraordinary she actually is and like radical feminists seek to minimize or forget her motherhood all together. To even think that an ordinary sinful women could be the Mother of Christ is to mock the intellect.

The Angel Gabriel addressed the Blessed Virgin in a most unique way, "Hail, full of grace",  a title given to her that had never been used before. Since the Fall, no one had been concieved in any state other than Original Sin, void of grace. But Gabriel said she was full of grace, proclaiming she was miraculously unique. And He should know as He was sent by God.

Her being full of grace was absolutely necessary for the completion of the purpose for which she had been called. God knew from eternity that He would require a human woman for a spouse so that He could enter human history. Having assumed the humble form of a helpless Child, He would need the help and assistance of a Mother who would love Him enough to obey Him without question and complete trust.

Her alliance with God is threefold. She’s the Daughter of the Father, the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and the Mother of the Son whose name in eternity is God and in time is Jesus. No other human being has ever or could ever have this tri-relationship with God. Within her most pure body, the incomprehensibility of the Blessed Trinity becomes intertwined with the Mystery of the Incarnation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

on Jun 02, 2010

Her alliance with God is threefold. She’s the Daughter of the Father, the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and the Mother of the Son whose name in eternity is God and in time is Jesus. No other human being has ever or could ever have this tri-relationship with God. Within her most pure body, the incomprehensibility of the Blessed Trinity becomes intertwined with the Mystery of the Incarnation.

and this is truth mixed with lies and error.  This is RCC tradition.  AGain, I keep asking you to NOT put RCC tradition here.  It's NOT biblical.  I highlighted the ONLY biblical parts of your statement.  Nothing else can be backed up with scripture.  It's tradition Lula. 

To even think that an ordinary sinful women could be the Mother of Christ is to mock the intellect.

and to think otherwise is to show one's ignorance and prideful attitude.  Your attitude is very Phariseeic.  The Pharisees couldn't understand why the people would follow such a fellow as this Christ who was not attached to any upstanding Rabbi of his day, had no riches, was dirty and probably unkempt in their eyes and hung around with the degenerates. 

But God never  usually picks the beautiful and lovely.  He says so himself in 1 Corinthians... that it's the despised and lowly and unbelieveable.  Mary and Joseph were two nobodies who went largely unnoticed in their communities.  That was what the whole buzz was about..isn't this the carpenter's son? Don't we know his mother and father?  He comes from where?  Nazarath?  That little hole in the wall?  You've got to be kidding us?  Who would follow him?  God wouldn't send such a fellow as this...kill him so we can get back to our religious ways...ya...right. 

The Angel Gabriel addressed the Blessed Virgin in a most unique way, "Hail, full of grace",

EXACTLY.  Can't YOU SEE LULA?  OPEN YOUR EYES.  Who needs Grace?  A sinner.   Only a sinner needs grace. If she were perfect (as you've been taught) why would she need grace?   God gave her grace in a big way because she was a sinner and she would carry the sinless one. 

When you're speeding down the road (a sin) and get stopped by a cop you deserve a ticket right?  If he let's you go with a warning he's giving you grace.  You deserve the ticket but got grace instead.  That's what Mary received.  Grace is unmerited favor.  She didn't deserve it but got it because God chose her for this most important job. 

I say of Mary that she was the only exception as far as from Eve we are born children of wrath. That would put the Mother of God under Satan's influence and that she surely never. ever was.

Mary WAS NOT the mother of God.  She was mother of the very human baby Jesus.  That's putting Mary in a place where she was not intended to be.  Again, taking liberty.  Only exception? Not scriptural again.  "ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD." 

Mary needed a Savior like the rest of us and said so herself in her Magnificant.  It's funny how you ignore bold and plain scriptures but "add" or make scriptures say what they don't say.  It NEVER says that Mary was sinless.  It never says Mary is the Mother of God.  It never says Mary is the mother of all the faithful.  But because YOU SAY so, it must be?  ARe you trumping God's word?  Pretty brazen Lula. 

of course it does....everything stated above is Biblical

no it's not.  You've taken some pretty good liberty to make your contrasts. 

You asked ....I supplied the Scripture and only some of it.

You did not supply any scripture.  You said this:

It's there. Prophesied in Isaias and fulfilled in St. Luke and St. Matthew.

that's NOT giving me anything but a mealy mouthed answer and you know it. 

Now as far as your long response #20...that DOES NOT tell me anywhere where Mary was "spoused" (your words) to the Holy Spirit.  You're still dancing. 

Nice long try thou. 

Please don't put here (how many times have I said this now?) RCC tradition.  If you do (response #20 is delete worthy) I'll have to delete you again.  I keep asking and you keep ignoring. 

Can we talk about Eve now? 

 

on Jun 03, 2010

Can we talk about Eve now?

Egads! I have been talking about Eve.. my very first sentence was

As Adam was a type of Jesus Christ, Romans 5:14, Eve was a type of Our Lady.

I have been explaining how Eve was a type of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Only the lesson is one of contrasts.  You think you are a Scripture know-it-all and you have a very hard time when someone shows you that Scripture means or alludes to something other than what you deem it must mean. Nothing that I have written contradicts Scripture.

Now let's analyze my post 20 (hopefully, without you getting wimpy over my including the Apostles' and the Contantinople Creeds (Tradition). That which I quoted from both was pertinent to the fact that Mary had been conceived through the Holy Spirit and both based on Scripture (of which I provided the passages.)

Her alliance with God is threefold. She’s the Daughter of the Father, the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and the Mother of the Son whose name in eternity is God and in time is Jesus. No other human being has ever or could ever have this tri-relationship with God. Within her most pure body, the incomprehensibility of the Blessed Trinity becomes intertwined with the Mystery of the Incarnation.

I highlighted the ONLY biblical parts of your statement. Nothing else can be backed up with scripture. It's tradition Lula.

It's all Biblical. It's undenial that the Blessed Virgin's alliance with God was threefold....She had a relationship with the Father (which you agree) with the Son (which you agree) and also with the Holy Spirit.

Here it is:

31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. 33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man? 35 And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

I said:

That the Blessed VIrgin Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit is a Divine Mystery given to us by God.

"Spouse" here is not as you think in the physical, natural, earthly sense, but in the supernatural sense.

Now I'm showing you that Scripture means this is a spousal relationship in a supernatural sense...you disagree becasue those exact words aren't found in Scripture!

Perhaps you can understand it better this way....the Church the Bride of Christ..in the supernatural sense.

We read in Apoc. 21:9  "the Bride, the wife of the Lamb" in a supernatural sense.

 

on Jun 03, 2010

Mary WAS NOT the mother of God. She was mother of the very human baby Jesus. That's putting Mary in a place where she was not intended to be.

Then you yoke yourself with Arian and Nestorius becasue you are mouthing their heresy. Even Luther and Calvin stayed away from those heretics. Calvin wrote, "We cannot acknowledge the blessings brought us by Jesus without acknowledging at the same time how highly God honored and enriched Mary in choosing her to be the Mother of God." (Comm. sur L'Harm., Evang. 20).

 Jesus was never a human Person....rather He was a Divine Person who assumed our human nature in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Jesus was God in the tabernacle of her womb. She was the Mother of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity and therefore the Mother of God.

The doctrine of the Mystery of the Incarnation is that Jesus Christ possesses a Divine and a Human Nature in One Divine Person.

How far are you willing to go in denying the BVMary her due honor?  You've told others here on JU that Jesus was God in the flesh......so that right there shows that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the Mother of God.   

Jesus is God....Baby Jesus was God and that makes the Blessed Virgin Mary the Mother of God.

 

 

 

 

on Jun 03, 2010

The Angel Gabriel addressed the Blessed Virgin in a most unique way, "Hail, full of grace",

Who needs Grace? A sinner. Only a sinner needs grace. If she were perfect (as you've been taught) why would she need grace? God gave her grace in a big way because she was a sinner and she would carry the sinless one.

Gabriel's saluation indicates that she was already full of grace...so that shows she wasn't in need of grace at all...she wasn't even in need of a little bit of grace as she was already FULL, full of grace.

sinners aren't full of grace, but the BLessed Virgin Mary already was.

on Jun 03, 2010

That's what Mary received. Grace is unmerited favor. She didn't deserve it but got it because God chose her for this most important job.

Agree.

So answer this ....when and how did the Blessed Virgin Mary receive this fullness of grace?

Catholics believe that she was always "full of grace" ...this was a special grace God gave her at the moment she was conceived. She was the exception to St.Paul's "all have sinned" because God chose her to be the uncorrupted tabernacle of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity.

Mary's role ("job" as you said above) was so significant that she was predestined to be always full of grace and therefore without the stain of original sin because she was to be Jesus' Mother.  This gives witness to the dignity of Jesus and any perception of Mary, His vessel, as defiled with sin damages the dignity of Jesus.  

 

 

on Jun 04, 2010

sinners aren't full of grace, but the BLessed Virgin Mary already was.

Paul wrote in Romans "where sin abounds grace abounds more" meaning that there's plenty of grace to cover our sins.  That's all that matters.  Like I said before since Mary, a sinner like the rest of us, was about to carry the sinless one, she had to be cleansed (just like the priests of the OT before they entered the Holy of Holies) and God covered her with his grace.  The grace didn't come from her; it came from the Holy Spirit. 

The wording in the Greek is "charitoo" which means endowed with grace and means highly favored.  She was blessed "among" women not "above" women.  The angel spoke to Daniel in much the same way in Daniel 10:19 calling him greatly beloved. 

Catholics believe that she was always "full of grace"

Ok, I like the way you phrase that because that's what it is.  It's a belief coming from the theology of the RCC, not the bible.  We don't know really when she received this extra measure of grace.  My guess (and it's only that) would be before her conception. 

She was the exception to St.Paul's "all have sinned"

BUT you're adding to Paul's words (Word of God really) by saying so.  He didn't say "all" with the exception of Mary.  There are NO exceptions Lula.  In order for Christ's sacrifice to appease God he had to be FULLY human. Otherwise it wouldn't stand and would be like cheating.   In order to be fully human he had to come from a fully human mother.  He was fully human but yet fully divine as well.  He was 100% man AND 100% God.  He got his humanity from his mother and his deity from the Holy Spirit. 

That's why it's biblical to say that Mary was the mother of the human baby Jesus, NOT the mother of God. 

Mary's role ("job" as you said above) was so significant that she was predestined to be always full of grace and therefore without the stain of original sin because she was to be Jesus' Mother

whrere are you getting this from?  It's NOT biblical. 

 

on Jun 04, 2010

(Comm. sur L'Harm., Evang. 20).

I have all of Calvin's writings and I havn't a clue what this means or where to find the quote you put up.  Otherwise I'd look it up myself.   But maybe I'll check Calvin's commentary on Luke 2 anyhow. 

Then you yoke yourself with Arian and Nestorius

no that's not it at all.  They denied his deity.  I'm not denying his deity. 

you disagree becasue those exact words aren't found in Scripture!

no I disagree because the principle is NOT found in scripture.  It's a twisting of scripture to make it fit your theolgy that Mary was somewhat divine herself.  She wasn't.   The bride of Christ being the church IS biblical so I do agree with that. 

The Holy Spirit moved in and out of people's lives during the OT helping them complete tasks that were too great to do themselves.  That's what happened here with Mary.  The Holy Spirit in this case overshadowed her and placed the seed of God in her womb.  This could only happen to one person and Mary was the one chosen for this task.  But that doesn't make her divine or sinless.  It means she needed an extra measure of grace perhaps to do this but who can measure God's grace?  It's limitless. 

Mary had been conceived through the Holy Spirit and both based on Scripture (of which I provided the passages.)

Mary was NOT conceived thru the Holy Spirit.   Not biblical in the least.  Otherwise you'd show me.  Christ was the ONLY one conceived this way and to say otherwise is to teach heresy. 

Nothing that I have written contradicts Scripture.

well I keep pointing it out and you've given no satisfactory biblical answers to them.  You have to turn to tradition to answer certain questions. 

Egads! I have been talking about Eve.. my very first sentence was

obviously not because look how this whole conversation got turned around to Mary.  The only woman in the bible the Catholics care about is Mary even though that is NOT how God intended it to be.  There are many more women in the bible besides Mary and for good reason. 

If you had been talking about Eve, we would be discussing Eve now wouldn't we? 

 

 

on Jun 04, 2010

Mary's role ("job" as you said above) was so significant that she was predestined to be always full of grace and therefore without the stain of original sin because she was to be Jesus' Mother

whrere are you getting this from? It's NOT biblical.

Yes, it is Biblical.

We know from Genesis that God promised Adam and Eve a Redeemer so we know from back as far as then, we know the Blessed Virgin Mary was in the mind of God. (but it goes back even further).

As He created the world He was thinking of her. The Mother of Jesus is Wisdom Personified in the Book of Proverbs 8:30-31,

"I was with Him forming all things; and was delighted every day, playing before Him at all times. Playing in the world and my delights were to be with the children of men."

Genesis 1:1-2 the act of Creation, "In the beginning God created heaven and earth. And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God moved over the waters."

"the Lord possesses me in the beginnning of His ways, before He made anything from the begining. I was set up from eternity and of old before the earth was made. The depths were not as yet, and I was already conceived, neither had the fountains of waters as yet sprung out, ....He had not yet made the earth, nor the rivers nor the poles of the world. When He prepared the heavens I was present....Proverbs 8: 22-24; 26-27.

When the Spirit of God moved over the waters, He was contemplating the day when she would fulfill her destiny.

God sent forth His Son to be born of a woman Gal 4:4 but to prepare her body as the Vessel of Jesus, He wanted her free assent and cooperation. St.Luke 1:28-38, For this from all eternity, God chose the Virgin Mary as the Mother of His only begotten Son.

We see her role as the Bearer of God is foreshadowed in the construction of the Ark of the Covenant. Ex. 25:10-11. The box would become the vessel upon which the Shekinah would descend. This wood used in the Ark was seen as a prefigurement of Mary's body preserved from the corruption of sin.

I could link the protable tents which housed the Ark as well as Solomon's Temple which was the house of God as prefigurments of Mary's womb for 9 months as the house of God.     

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