Did you hear about this one? This doesn't help quell the rumors that Obama is acting like the AC. Recently he told the Turks that America is not a Christian Nation. So is he trying to prove it? This was on Fox News this morning.
I just love it when everyone jumps on the bandwagon with the whole separation of church and state thing.
How many kow that Jefferson had NOTHING to do with the Constitution but came to the U.S. a month after it was finished? He was in France. But yet he's the only guy we talk about in the separation of church and state?
Govenor Morris was the last signer of the Constitution and he was the most active when it came to the Constituion Conventions speaking on the floor 173 times....more than any other founder....yet no one has heard of him today. Ask around.
Ask how many people have heard of Morris and how many have heard of Jefferson. I'm telling ya, there's a reason for this. There's a reason why most can only point out two signers in the famous Declaration of Independence Painting made to celebrate the moment (Franklin & Jefferson) and know next to nothing on any of the other signers.
Morris wrote most of the words of the Constituion. It was basically his document. He also wrote two commentaries on the Constitution. He said:
"Religion is the only solid basis of good morals, therefore education should teach the precepts of religion and mankind's duties towards God."
What does he know? Only that he made a very significant impact in our country, that's all.
Doesn't it make sense that Govenor Morris would know the intent of the Constitution? Then why do we take Jefferson's 8 word comment in a letter of all things and run with it?
Answer? Because we are being led in a very certain direction that our founding fathers had no intention. Our kids are being brainwashed with revisionist history for a purpose and a plan.
Yep, The USA was meant to be a Christian theocracy and anyone in power who thinks differently must be the AC. Sure thing.
I'm not an Obama fan, far from it, but these sorts of extremist religious insiuations are not only absurd but make most relligious peoples look like kooks.
To claim that Jefferson had nothing to do with the writing of our constitution is dishonest and an excersie in denial. He most certainly did although not alone.
I am always amazed at how peotple attempt to change historical facts to fit their ideology
One of my ancestrors was John Adams and he, among several other, contributed to our constitution. This is well documented in his personal journals whicb I have read. Jefferson was prominatly mentioned in those journals as the one who guided and pretty much wrote our constitution. These documents are easily available for anyone to read.
While I follow the teachings of Jesus I would not want to live in a theoccracy of any kind. God saw fit to give people the right to choose and that's good enough for me.
none of which are "god" btw.
it's more than just the constitution.
consider our flag.
what emblem is found on flags of christian nations that's missing from ours?
btw it was president john adams who signed the treaty of tripoli after having sent it to the senate for ratification. it was read aloud on the senate floor, each senator was presented a printed copy and it was unanimously approved--one of 3 unanimous results of the first 339 matter put to the senate for vote--and was thereafter reprinted in the philadelphia papers without any recorded negative reaction by the citizenry.
article 11 reads as follows:
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
signing date in the us was june 1797. bear in mind many of the founders were not only still alive but active in government. which leads me to believe your first sentence deliberate (if fantasy-driven) fabrication.
you couldn't be more correct in your follow-up sentence. our kids are being brainwashed by dominionists such as yourself.
Regardless of what he said, having the University remove/hide signs of religion is the real issue here.
I agree, don't speak there if you don't like the decor, or think it would offend someone. Stick to public places. MLK didn't cover up the Lincoln memorial (and anyone that suggests that isn't a hallowed place needs go visit and get their patriotism meter readjusted).
This is an excerpt taken from Gary Bauer's article 4-17-09.
When President Obama went to Turkey and had a photo-op in a major mosque
and said nice things about Islam, perhaps he was just being a polite guest. But
what explains the arrogance of the White House's demands that Georgetown
University cover up the monogram representing Jesus Christ during the president's
Tuesday address? According to several news reports, the White House demanded that all
signage and symbols be covered during the president's speech Tuesday.
Fox News reported that the White House insisted that the move was made
only to provide a proper setting for the speech. What was the setting?
A Catholic university founded by the Jesuits in 1789! Moreover, the president
quoted the Sermon on the Mount during his address, which begs the question:
Why would the president go to a Catholic university to deliver a speech quoting
the Sermon on the Mount, and demand that a symbol of the sermon's author
be covered up? What explains this odd behavior? The president goes overseas denies
America's cultural heritage and tells Muslim audiences about Islam's contributions
to America. He bows before Saudi Arabia's Muslim king and the White House tries to
deny it. Now he goes to a Catholic university and tries to turn it into a secular institution
by demanding that religious symbols be covered up. Whoever is advising the president on
protocol needs to be fired.
Really? You have something to back this up Mason? I'm all for historical facts. Go ahead. Show me. Put your facts on the table for me to see. Do you know when the Constitution was ratified? Where was Jefferson? How much did he write on this? How about NOTHING! He had nothing to do with the Constitution other than to support it. He disqualified himself.
Being a Christian nation and running a theocracy are two diff things. The FF did not wish to have any religion as a state religion. That's what Jefferson meant by Separation of Church and State. They came out of that background and set this country up to have "freedom of religion" not "from religion."
But that still doesn't negate the fact that this country and its founders wished to have a Christian influence in this new world and all their laws and mandates were based on the Holy Bible.
Yes. You're doing the same thing critics do when they want to tear down scripture. They find one thing and hold on to it as if this settles it.
This treaty of Tripoli is commonly misused for purposes such as yours to show that our nation wasn't founded on Christian principles. Advocates for this idea use this treaty as the foundation of their whole argument.
Remember while the Founding Fathers openly declared that America was a Christian nation they did not set up a federal establishment of such. They prohibited this from happening on purpose. They left it up to the States.
So if the article is read as a declaration that the federal government of the United States was not in any sense founded on the Christian religion, such a statement is not a repudiation of the fact that America was considered a Christian nation.
Article XI simply distinguished America from those historical strains of European Christianity which held an inherent hatred of Muslims; it simply assured the Muslims that the United States was not a Christian nation like those of previous centuries (with whose practices the Muslims were very familiar) and thus would not undertake a religious holy war against them.
There would be no crusades against them coming from America. There would be no force feeding of Christianity aimed at the Muslims.
Shortly after the military excursion against Tripoli was successfully terminated, its account was written and published. Even the title of the book bears witness to the nature of the conflict:
The Life of the Late Gen. William Eaton . . . commander of the Christian and Other Forces . . . which Led to the Treaty of Peace Between The United States and The Regency of Tripoli
Morris was the one who did the physical writing, but those who were involved and contributed to the constitution included John Dickinson, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Thomas Paine, Edmund Randolph, James Madison, Roger Sherman, James Wilson, and George Wythe. No single person was the sole author. Twelve of the thirteen states sent delegates to the Constitutional Convention to revise the Articles of Confederation and the entire convention worked on it.
Jefferson's work contributed greatly to the project, as did the work of many others. They all deserve credit for the final work.
com'on Mason. I know how smart you are. Do your HW. Show me what you're saying about Jefferson.
He didn't even sign it. If he was as involved as you say, why didn't he sign it?
I think it was God's purpose that he was away in France. I don't think it was a coincidence.
Of course you do. Such is the thinking of religious zealots. You can deny his contributions to the founding of this nation all you want but it doesn't change the facts. He wrote our declaration of independence and was an important figure throughout the founding of our nation. Of course he didn't sign it, he was out of the country, that doesn't mean that he didn't contribute to it. He was a well respected person in his day and contributed greatly to the founding of this nation, including the constitution. Just read up on the letters between himself and Madison and you might get some idea of his involvement in the drafting of our foundation.
I know many Christian zealots dislike Jefferson because he was basically a deist instead of a devout Christian, but that's your problem and not related to reality.His contributions to the founding of our nation are a matter of fact and no measure of distraction can take away from that. As a student of history I know full well where he was, and when.
I don't really consider myself a religious zealot Mason. I guess that depends on your definition. What makes me one? The fact that I believe our country was founded on Christian principles? The fact that I believe in God period? Just because I'm a Christian? I mean what?
First you're assuming I dislike Jefferson. Why would I? Because he's a deist? Nope. In fact I can take Jefferson's writings and compared to today he looks like a bible thumper.
Second, I'm very familiar with reality. You still haven't proven your case Mason. Going after me instead isn't helping you out here.
Well I already gave you Post #22 showing how Madison was keeping him posted. I'm sure Jefferson was very interested but what I'm saying is he really had nothing to do with this and you still haven't proven it otherwise. Many don't realize this and think Jefferson's separation of church and state is somewhere in the Constitution because he wrote it himself.
I'm not disputing his contributions to our country. So don't get off the track. We are speaking about the Constitution and the fact that not only was Jefferson not even in our country during the writing of it or the signing of it we are quick to take his little 8 worded sentence (in a letter) about separation of church and state changing many of our laws as a result and totally misinterpreting what the Founding Father's intended, especially those who helped write the Constitution and put their signatory to it.
Alright.
There's a difference between a Christian nation and government.
Besides, in my opinion, the point isn't so much that those living in the States weren't Theist or Deist, but that the founders, the people that wrote our founding documents, and established our nation - put nothing, absolutely nothing, stating that our nation was to be Christian, or was Christian - in the sense of the government. These were Deist and even Theists who did this.
~Alderic
those who make claims such as this one by kfc prefer to ignore, rather than explain, how and/or why the authors and ratifiers of our constitution somehow managed to avoid using the word "god" in that document.
Actually, if I remember correctly, there was a reference or two of the word God; however, it is in their implying and use of words that they suggest a God other than the Christian God, per se. I made the case in another thread, I believe it was here.
Edit:
Let me rephrase that, there was the use of the word God. To say reference sounds like I'm saying they put: (See: God) - in the founding documents. That would be sort of funny though.