Scientist: Terrorists Could Use Insects as Weapons

I'd like to think that I simply read the plain text without applying too much fantasy to it.

Like Mayim and mayim Elohim and elohim can be both a name in singular and a word in plural.

Yes. But He is talking to someone and including them in the speech. It doesn't in any way imply that He Himself is more than one. He is probably talking to angels, or possible, since when that was written polytheism was still around, talking to lesser gods.

no, polytheism is only the belief in other gods.  There are no other gods and the whole of the OT Hebrew scriptures is very clear on that.  There is only one God and his name is Elohim.  You bailed big time on that one Leauki. 

So God (Elohim) isn't in cahoots in creation with other gods because there weren't any. 

What about Isaiah 9:6 when the coming Messiah is referred to as the "mighty God (Elohim) and Everlasting Father?  How can that be if there was no trinity involved? 

In many OT passages Elohim is plurally used.  Often one must go back to the original Hebrew translation to see that certain variants of Elohim are plural, although the more current writing would indicate that they are singular.  For instance:

"Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth...Ecclesiates 12:1.  In the original Hebrew this is literally thy Creators.

"For thy Maker is thine husband"....Isaiah 54:5.  Here, Maker shoud be translated Makers. 

There are triune conversations in Isaiah

"Also I heard the voice of the Lord saying, Whom shall I send  and who will go for us?  Then said I, Here am I, send me" Isaiah 6:8

In this passage there is a reference to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit:

In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence (son)  saved them; in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.  But thy rebelled and vexed his holy Spirit; therefore he was turned to be their enemy, Isa 63:9,10 

Actually, the Israelite religion evolved from polytheism and was henotheistic before the Babylonian exile. The god of Israel (Elohim) was understood to be the creator god and only god worthy of worship, the god of gods. The Torah does not say that the other gods don't exist and mentions several other gods, some by name.

I guess the strict monotheism came to Judaism from Zoroastrianism after the Babylonian exile.

Judaism as such doesn't make any statements about the existence of other gods, it merely forbids Jews from worshipping such other gods. Most tribes had their own main god each. And Moses didn't even know that "El" and G-d were the same god until he was told. "El" is the generic word for "god" or "powerful one" in Semitic languages and it was also the word/name for the creator god. He had a wife named "Asherath" and the other gods were their children.

Let me guess, the reference to the son is the word "son" you added in brackets?

Lula posts:

I've already answered that in post #50.

The belief the three Divine Persons share the one Divine Nature and are but One God is hinted at in the Old Testament and more fully revealed in the New. We've discussed the use of the word "us" and "our" in Genesis 1:26, and 11:17, and KFC has mentioned several others.

It's a revealed mystery to be accepted as true merely becasue God teaches it. The dogma was revealed by Jesus Christ. St.Matt. 11:27, mentioned in St.Luke's account of the Incarnation, 1:32-33, in St.Matthew's description of the Baptism of Christ, in our Lord's discourse at the Last Supper, and in His Divine commission to the Apostles. It's set forth in the Baptismal formula and handed down by Sacred Tradition as a doctrine which distinguishes Christianity from all other religions.

I've always understood that if you say the universal Jewish prayer in Hebrew, as recorded in Deut. 6:4, then you express belief in the plurality of Persons in God. A Jewish convert to Catholicism explained it this way. The literal translation is Hear Isreal Jehovah Gods One. Adonai is His name; Elohenu is His plural existence; the singular of Elohenu is Eloah or El. Does that make sense to you?

Lula posts:

I beg to differ.

Christ is God and let's go to Exodus 25: 8-10, 27 and read that Almighty God gave Moses exact instructions for the making of the Tabernacle, the sanctuary. "And they shall make me a sanctuary and I will dwell in the midst of them. The people furnished the materials for it v. 9, "According to all the likeness of the tabernacle which I will show thee, and of all the vessels for the services thereof, and thus you shall make it."

So Moses built the Tabernacle and it was divided into 2 parts, the Sanctuary and the Holy of Holies. In the Holy of Holies MOses placed the Ark of the COvenant where he put the tables of the Law on which the Ten COmmandments were written as well as a vase filled with Manna, and the rod of Aaron. The lid was called the Propitiatory at the ends stood two cheribum of gold with their wings spread over shadowing it.

In the Holy were 3 objects...the altar of incense for the daily sacrifice, the 7-branched candlestick on which 7 lamps burned perpetually, and the table of unleavened breads which had to be renewed every Sabbath. On a table was a golden vial filled with wine. In the outer court was the brazen altar where the holocausts were burned. The people remained on the outer court and only the Priests were allowed to enter the Holy. Moses poured oil on the Tabernacle and then the pillar of cloud in which God was present descended upon the Propitiatory between the 2 Cheribum was God's dwelling in the midst of His people.

The existence of but one God means that there can be but one true religion of God. There can be but one true Temple-Chruch of God at any one time. It must be divinely instituted, authoritative, priestly Church. Deut. 17:8-12, St.Matt. 18:15-18.

The religious authority of this God instituted Temple -Chruch in matters of faith and morals must center in its hierarchy Deut. 17:8-12, St.Matt. 18:16-20 and Romans 13:2.

The highest communal form of worship in this God made religion centers in altar sacrifices, offered by priests in honor of God, as commanded by God, for the spiritual well-being of the children of God. Levit. chapters 1-7, Numbers 17, St.Luke 22:19-20 and Hebrews 8:1-4.

That one true Chruch was the priestly Temple-Chruch of the children of Isreal which operated with divine sanction from the days of Moses and Aaron until the First Pentecost Day in 33AD.

Leauki may want to perk up here....

The prayerful hope of the children of Isreal centered in the coming of the predicted Messias Is. 7:14, 9:6, Gen. 49:24-26. He came in the time Dan. 9:24-26, place Bethlehem Michaes 5:2, family and manner foretold and His name is Jesus 2King 7:12; Zach. 9:9; St.Matt. 21:9-11. Jesus, the Messias came to fulfill the Law and prophjecies of the Mosaic dispensation. StMatt. 5:17.  This fulfillment was evidenced in the life and works of Jesus, and in the principles He proclaimed, which existed potentially and prophetically in the Judaism which was of God. Also, in His institution of a Chruch of all nations in place of the Temple-Chruch of an exclusive people , the children of Isreal. St.Matt. 28:16-20.

This fulfillment was evidenced in the institution by Jesus of a more perfect, more authoritative priesthood than was called for in the Mosaic Law. It is a priesthood without genealogy, in place of the priesthood of Aaron, which was inherited, family priesthood. Ps. 109:4; Hebrews 5:1-6;7.

This fulfillment was evidenced in the institution by Jesus of a more perfect Sacrifice; an "unbloody oblation", later called the Holy Mass,in place of the bloody Mosaic sacrifices, Mal. 1:11; St.Luke 22:19-20.

This sacrifice was to be offered on altars all over the world, "from the rising of the sun, unto the going down thereof", instead of a single altar in a central place, as called for in the Old Testament. Deut. 12, Esdras 7:17, Mal. 1:11.

The Mosaic Church of the children of Isreal set forth in the Torah ended its divine mission in the first century of the Christian era, when it ceased to have a priesthood, which was followed by the destruction of the Temple with the single altar. With the ending of the existence of the Aaronic priesthood, there came an end to the sacrifices called for in Leviticus. Thus the Judaism in the OT became a thing of the historic past.

St.Paul writes,  "The Tabernacle is a parable of the time present". It foreshadowed the Chruch of the New Testament and its houses of God. That Church of Christ was to be and is an organic, visible, authoritative, priestly self-perpetuating spiritual society, which Christ promised to remain with until the end of the world.

As there was only one Tabernacle and one divine worship instituted by God Himself, so there is only one Church and one true worship of Christ in the world instituted by Himself. As there was a real but mysterious and hidden presence of God in the Tabernacle in the pillar of cloud over the Ark, so there is the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Holy Altar.  He is both the cloud and the living bread (Manna) that has come down from Heaven to give life to the world.

As the Tabernacle was divided, so Catholic churches have 2 parts. One for the priests, called the sanctuary where the altar is, with the perpetual lamp burning, and the other for the faithful is called the body of the Church. The seven lights are the 7 sacraments which are dispensed in the Chruch  and the laver is the Baptismal font and the confessional is where we are cleansed from our sins. So, you can see that the Tabernacle was a type which finds its perfect fulfillment in every Catholic Chruch.  

No, it's quite the opposite. Belief in a god-related plurality was exactly what they prayer was supposed to get out of the Israelites systems.

Perhaps he didn't understand the concept of one god. Many Germanic tribes in Europe found to Roman Catholicism because its Trinity, saints, and icons presented a religion very compatible with polytheistic tendencies.

No. I gave you the literal translation before. I don't see much sense in you coming up with ever new "literal translations" after I already told you what the sentence means.

Adonai is not a name. It's the plural first person singular possesive of "adon" = "lord". The plural is used as a majestic plural. (Either way the singular and plural "adoni" and "adonai" are spelt the same in Hebrew.)

The plural of "el" is "elim", the plural of "eloah" is "elohim". "Eloheinu" means "our god", it is not the plural of "eloah" or "el".

Plurals in Hebrew are formed in one of three ways:

1. Add suffix "-im" to construct form, sometimes changing vowels: bayit (house) -> beit (construct form) -> batim (houses)

2. Change last vowel in construct form: chavera (female friend) -> chaverat (construct form) -> chaverot (female friends)

3. Irregular (rare): ish (man) -> anashim (men)

Possesive forms are formed by adding the right suffix to the construct form:

1. bayit (house) -> beit (construct form) -> beiteinu (our house)

2. eloah (god) -> eloh (construct form) -> eloheinu (our god)

Duals are formed by adding the suffix "-aim" to the construct form:

1. yom (day) -> yam (construct form) -> yamaim (pair of days)

OK, just to be crystal clear. Catholics are monotheists, not polytheists. We believe, love and worship the One Eternal God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob 

I know the Shema in Hebrew doesn't express belief in 3 separate Gods...and guess what...neither did those who "heard" it.  There is a vast difference between belief in the plurality of Persons in God which it implies and 3 separate Gods.

The Blessed Trinity is a mystery and I understand that it's an obstacle to Jewish appreciation. Again, this is due partly to the realization that belief in the Trinity carries with it belief in Jesus, the Second Person of the Triune God, as the Messias.

It is quite irrelevant whether Catholics are polytheists or not. The Shema tells everyone that G-d is one, regardless of which particular belief you hold that requires the Shema to say something else.

Nobody said that the Shema expresses belief in three separate gods. I guess I'll wait until you are done with this phase and come back to the discussion?

I don't find it very mysterious. And I don't care whether G-d sent you a Messiah and a holy ghost in order to convince European polytheists that a religion based on Judaism is also convincing.

I am merely and solely telling you that the Hebrew Bible does NOT support your belief in a Trinity. That's all.

LEAUKI POSTS: #20

lula posts

leauki posts:

And what is freely asserted can be freely denied. The Old Testament does indeed support the doctrine of the Blessed Trinity but you evidently choose to keep yourself blinded to that fact. "You don't care" to investigate further the fact that Almighty God revealed Himself in Hebrew Scripture.  

It's vain to think the Messias has not yet come. Not only did the Messias come centuries ago in the Person of Jesus Christ, but there exists not a distinctive tribe of Judah, and therefore a house of David within it, such as existed in the days of the Blessed Virgin Mary in which a Messias or anybody else could be born.

As for the Shema, the Blessed Trinity, and having faith in God alone, my honest thoughts and suggestions are posted # 23.

I would disagree.  I believe Adonai is just one of many names for God.  The name Adonai means "Master, Lord."  The Hebrew OT name Adonai and its Greek NT counterpart Kurios describe the relationship between master and slave.  God owns all his children.   Adonai carries with it a twofold implication.  One that the master has a right to expect obedience and that the slave may expect provision. 

I agree. 

I understand that but what I'm saying is in God's eyes, there were no other gods worthy of worship.  He even said that in the 10 Commandments "Have no other gods before me."  A god is just anything we put in place of the real God.  Joshua in Chap 24 told the people to chose any god (and he names two) but he told them there is only one true God.  We can make gods of anything if we so desire.  Doesn't make them gods. 

Yes.  But I believe they came out of polytheism well before the Babylonian exile during the time of Abraham. 

I'm not sure what you mean about "strict" but I would say during the days of Moses it was pretty strict and that was before the Babylonian exile (have no other gods before me).  That was when Israel really first became a Nation. 

Yes. 

How do you know this?  Are you referring to the burning bush period? 

yes, I thought that would be helpful. 

well you can beg to differ if you wish but this is a case where you are not only having to go to the OT to prove your point but also you are leaving out much important scripture to prove your point. 

Have you ever heard of Ichabod (1 Samuel 4)?  His name means "no glory."  You can read during this time period that God's glory left the temple when the ark was stolen.  In 4:21 it says "the glory is departed from Israel."  From that point onward God's glory has NEVER been in a building and you haven't shown me where it has with your much Catholic commentary. 

And your long drawn out response (who's going to read all that) can be quelled with one scripture:

"Know you not that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man defile the temple of God shall God destroy for the temple of God is holy which temple you are."  1 Cor 3:16-17 

and just for good measure I'll give you this:

"And what agrement has the temple of God with idols?  for you are the temple of the living God as God has said.  I will dwell in them and walk in them and I will be their God and they shall be my people."  2 Cor 6:16

There are lots of scripture surrounding this and not one that says that God is indwelling buildings like he did the Jewish Temple of the OT.  God does not indwell church buildings Lula even though I know the Catholics believe this as they commission and decommission God everytime they move in and out of a building. 

and has no NT basis for it.  They don't have a leg to stand on.  So they copied the OT tabernacle, so what?  God destroyed the Temple that should give you some idea that he no longer indwells buildings.  I think he made it pretty clear especially with the ripping of the veil of the Temple in 30 AD. 

We see from reading Exodus 25 that God did indeed dwell in the Tabernacle in the Jewish Temple (a building designed for the worship of God as He prescribed). But Malachais 1:11 was prophecying something else. I made the case in #66 that Malachais prophecied Christ's presence in the Tabernacle in every Catholic Church (a building for the worship of God as Christ prescribed).

Malachais whose name signifies the Angel of the Lord wrote in 400 BC and was the last of the OT prophets. His prophecy foretells the coming of Christ, the reprobation of the Jews and their sacrifices, and that God will accept of the sacrifice that shall be offered in every place among the Gentiles.

1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts."

A "clean oblation" to Catholics is the precious Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharistic Sacrifice of the Mass. 

How do you interpret Malachais 1:11 prophecy KFC?  

KFC POSTS:

YES, "Building" as in House of God, where we worship God according to the way He wants....first in the Old Convenant Temple, then in the New Covenant Church.

Regarding your assertion that "from 1 Samuel 4 onward God's glory has NEVER been in a building"..... If you read 2Kings 5 and 6, you'll find that near Jerusalem was Mount Sion on which David erected a splendid Tabernacle for the Ark of the Covenant. The new Tabernacle was made on the model of the old one constructed under the direction of Moses. When the Tabernacle was completed, David caused the Ark to be carried in triumpth to Mount Sion.

We know from reading 2 Kings 23, and 3 Kings 1-2, that the building of the Temple was reserved for Solomon, David's son, who was decreed by God to be David's successor. Solomon's kingdom was going to be great and powerful if he would be faithful to the Commandments of God and David certainly exhorted Solomon to serve God. David gave him gold and silver for the Sanctuary, together with the plan of the Temple and said, "God has put it into my mind."

We read on 2 Paralipomenon 6:1-2 "Then Solomon said: The Lord promised that he would dwell in a cloud. But I have built a house to his name, that he might dwell there forever......v. 10-11 The Lord therefore hath accomplished his word which he spoke: and I am risen up in the place of David my father, and sit upon the throne of Isreal, as the Lord promised, and have built a house to the name of the Lord God of Isreal. And I have put in it the Ark, wherein is the covenant of the Lord...7:1-3 And when Solomon had made an end of his prayer, fire came down from heaven, and consumed the holocausts and the victims: and the majesty of the Lord filled the house. Neither could the priests enter into the Temple of the Lord because the majesty of the Lord had filled the Temple of the Lord. Moreover, all the children of Isreal saw the fire coming down and the glory of the Lord upon the house; and falling down with their faces to the ground, they adored and praised the Lord: becasue He is good, becasue his mercy endures for ever."

Now, you might have a different interpretation, but what that means to me is there was another Temple, a "building",  a House of God where the Tabernacle was and where the glory of God was upon the House.