The Whore of Babylon
Published on January 22, 2009 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Religion

Does the name Nimrod ring a bell? 

Nimrod was a mighty hunter, of men's souls the saying goes, living after the days of Noah and the great flood.  You can find the biblical story in Genesis 11 but there is also much more written outside the pages of the bible and quite easily attainable.  Nimrod was a leader, one who established his own kingdom, its chief city being Babel or Babylon.  His goal was to unify the people to follow his lead in a revolt against God as they attempted to build a tower of worship to the sun. 

Of course, God stepped in, confused their language and the people scattered settling around the globe as He intended in the first place. 

According to ancient writings the wife of Nimrod was Semiramis.  She later became known as the "queen of heaven."  The story is told that after her husband died, he became a sun god and she later became impregnated by a sunbeam carrying her late husband's sperm.  This, of course, would be considered a counterfeit miraculous birth.  Her son's name was Tammuz.   When he was a young man he was killed by a wild boar while out hunting.

She mourned his death for many days and miraculously he was resurrected (now a counterfeit resurrection).  When he was resurrected he was resurrected as Nimrod in the flesh.  Sound familiar?   This became the beginning of a counterfeit religious pagan system and can be verified easily enough.  Just google any of the names involved and you will see the writings behind it. 

The Harlot is not just a harlot now.  She has now given birth and has become the mother of Harlots to many other pagan religions started right here with the family of Nimrod, Semiramis and Tammuz manifesting itself in many other false mother/child religious systems throughout all history. 

In Egypt we had the mother/son of Iris and Osiris

In Assyria we had the mother/son of Ishtar and Bacchus

In India we had the mother/son of Isi and Iswara

In Asia we had the mother/son of Cybele and Deoius

In Greece we had the mother/son of Aphrodite and Eros

And in Rome we had the mother/son of Venus and Cupid.

Cupid?  Yes, the cute little angel with the arrows we celebrate on Valentine's Day.   The names and places may have changed but it's all the same mother and son worship that started with the family of Nimrod.  Sounds innocent especially when you think of Cupid who is associated with love.   Cupid is none other than Nimrod resurrected and is always seen with a bow and arrow.  Remember Nimrod was a mighty hunter of what?  Men's souls. 

This story is not just a cute little story that has no merit behind it.  We see the history of all this inside and outside the bible.  When the Jews were in Babylonian captivity Jeremiah admonished the Jews for worshipping the "queen of heaven."  He said this to them

"The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven and to pour out drink offerings to other gods that they may provoke me to anger." 

The prophet Ezekiel during this same time period recorded his vision writing this:

"Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the Lord's house which was toward the north and behold there sat women weeping for Tammuz.  Then said he to me, Have you seen this, O son of man? turn you yet again and you shall see greater abominations than these."  Ezek 8:14-15

The Jews had prostituted themselves away from God by such worship.  In the Temple of God itself they were found worshipping Tammuz the son of Semiramis.  The Jews were warned repeatedly to stop and turn back to God by Jeremiah yet they did not heed the Prophet's words.   They  were eventually exiled to Babylon even as Jeremiah wept over his homeland knowing their outcome.  Their temple was smashed and the altar ruined. 

So in effect God gave them what they wanted.  He gave them captivity in a land of idolatry for seventy years.   The principle of reaping and sowing was in full swing.  We always reap more than what we sow and we always reap after a measurable amount of time after we sow.  It may not be right away but it will eventually come to fruition. 

This exile seems to have worked because after the Jews returned from Babylon, idolatry has not been a problem since for the Jewish people. 

The Catholic church has drunk deeply and eagerly from the golden cup that Mystery Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots clutched in her hand.  The Reformers who recognized this lost their very lives trying to disassociate and break with Rome's idolatrous practices with the same mother/child worship perpetuated by their own Mother Church. 

All over the globe we can still see the shrines to "Mary, Queen of Heaven" and her son.  The Reformers mistakenly believed that Rome was the Mother of harlots spoken by John in his book of Revelation, but who could blame them?  It's written that the Harlot is drunken with the blood of the saints.  As these Reformers (saints) went to their stakes kindled by the pages of their bibles and set ablaze by the RCC they had no idea that Rome was just another harlot in a long line born to the Mother of Harlots. 

The Mother Harlot got her beginnings way back at the foot of the Tower of Babel and those who drank from her cup were scattered all over the world.  Every religion, every idolatrous observance and every attempt of man-made worship can be traced back to Babylon, the Harlot's birthplace.  She was well matured before Rome ever came on the scene and even now continues to "sit on many waters." 

The RCC, is not by far, the only religion who has succumbed to the seduction of the Harlot.  Many cults, Buddhism, Shintoism, Protestantism, Muhammadanism, and all the other thousands of religions have taken more than a little sip of her perpetual overflowing cup.  They have become intoxicated.  This intoxication is brought about by her persecution of the bride of Christ.  She plays the jealous woman.  Her anger is kindled against the true love of God and so she persecutes those that make up His bride. 

Yes, this Harlot is a jealous woman.  She represents all false religion throughout history and is still active in the persecution of all those who love God and are faithful to Him. 

Throughout all of history God's people have always been persecuted by false religion coupled with godless government   We are fast approaching the time that will peak in what is called by Jesus as the "great tribulation" in which the Harlot (false religious system) rides the beast (godless government) and comes after God's elect in such a way that Christ even said himself "Except those days should be shortened there should no flesh be saved."  Matt 24. 

 

"My people, go you out of the midst of her."  Jeremiah 51:45

"Come out of her, my people."  Revelation 18:4

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Comments (Page 6)
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on Oct 10, 2011

Lula posts:

lulapilgrim
It would be impossible to never mention the Blessed Mother in prayer for she is a vital part of the true Christian religion.

KFC posts

KFC Kickin For Christ



But this is NOT biblical Lula. Not at all. Christ taught us to pray. To pray to his mother is to ignore His own instruction.

Yes, intercessory prayer is sanctioned in the Bible and praying to the Blessed Virgin is intercessory prayer. We are asking her to intercede to Jesus on our behalf. 

Yes, Christ taught us to pray "The Our Father" prayer. Best prayer of all. But I'm talking about intercessory prayer---to Jesus through Mary. Get it? God chose Mary and she brought forth Jesus, our Lord.  As Jesus came to us through Mary so through intercessory prayer, we shall go to Him through Mary, that is, we pray to her that she may intercede for us with God.

Intercessory prayers to Jesus' Mother Mary is to obey His instruction. All through the Bible we find God conferring favors through the prayers of others. In the OT, we read of prayers of Abraham, Moses and other prophets. St.James 5:16 tells us "to  pray for one another". 

Here's more.

God's words in Job 42:8, "....go to My servant Job, and offer for yourselves a holocaust: and My servant Job shall pray for you; for him I will accept, lest that folly be not imputed to you.." Now, the Blessed Mother is undoubtedly in Heaven as with the other Saints in Heaven and sees God "face to face as He is", 1Cor. 3:12; 1St.John 3:2. So while God alone is Omnipotent, through the Blessed Virgin Mary's access to God, thousands of concrete instances in answer to prayer.  

 

KFC, if we must always pray directly to God, as you say, and may not ask the prayers of others, why did St.Paul write to the Thessalonians, "pray for us that we may be delivered from importunate and evil men"? 2Thess. 3:2.

KFC, why did he not ask God directly, as you say instead of asking the prayers of the Thessalonians? Or would you be more Scriptural than the New Testament itself?  Christology according to KFC again? 

on Oct 10, 2011

 

KFC Kickin For Christ
Christ taught us to pray.

Yes, Christ taught us to pray the “Our Father” prayer, a very precious prayer which is found in St.Matt. 6:9-13.

The Catholic version has it:

9 Thus therefore shall you pray: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. Amen.

But the Protestant King James Version in verse 13 has added “for thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory, forever and forever. Amen.”

This addition was not found in the oldest manuscripts of Saint Matthew and is the reason why in the 4th century, St.Jerome,  the great translator of the Bible did not include it. The addition is not considered by scholars to part of the original text.

So this addition was not Christ’s words and not part of His prayer, yet it's found in the KJV in bright red as though they were!

During the reign of Elizabeth I, the addition appeared in the First Book of Common prayer in 1549. It was their desire at that time to distinguish their Protestant manner of praying the Our Father prayer from the Catholic way. The interpolation of the addition was an anti-Catholic gesture!

So every time you bring up the “Our Father” prayer, it reminds me of how Protestants pray it with that addition which was not included by Our Lord in His prayer. I find that very jarring. 

on Oct 10, 2011

lulapilgrim
Yes, intercessory prayer is sanctioned in the Bible and praying to the Blessed Virgin is intercessory prayer. We are asking her to intercede to Jesus on our behalf. 

lulapilgrim
FC, if we must always pray directly to God, as you say, and may not ask the prayers of others, why did St.Paul write to the Thessalonians, "pray for us that we may be delivered from importunate and evil men"? 2Thess. 3:2.

KFC, why did he not ask God directly, as you say instead of asking the prayers of the Thessalonians? Or would you be more Scriptural than the New Testament itself?  Christology according to KFC again? 

Well this is just a slam Lula.  You are NOT Scriptural at all.  You are reading scripture thru the lens of the RCC and it's all twisted up.  You have truth and error so mixed up it's hard sometimes to untangle the mess.    

Intercessory prayer is sanctioned.  Yes.  you have that right.    BUT...Nowhere in scripture are we told to pray to anyone other than God. These are two different things.  We pray ONLY to God thru the Son.  ONLY.  We also pray for others but we petition God ONLY.  

Somehow you have the two put together when there is no biblical basis for it.  

Paul was writing coveting other's prayers on his behalf.  THEY WERE ALIVE!  Nowhere ever are we to pray to anyone who has left this side of eternity.  WE ARE NOT TO PRAY TO DEAD PEOPLE.  This is pagan.  

Praying to Mary IS NOT intercessory prayer.  It's worship.  You are worshiping her when you pray to her.   Paul didn't tell others to pray to him did he?  He didn't pray to them did he?  NO! A thousand times no.  He asked them to petition God (as Christ taught) on his behalf.  That's what intercessory prayer is.  Praying to Mary is idolatry.  You will answer for that.  

 

on Oct 10, 2011

lulapilgrim
You may not like it or agree but that proves Christ was linked with His Mother. It seems you are only concerned with the Risen Christ  but know little about the Child Christ. 

 

and that's it in a nutshell isn't it?  I remember my mother saying a long time ago and one of the reasons for her leaving the RCC.  They spend most of their time thinking of Christ as a baby. They either have Him (most of the time) as a baby or on the cross.  Very little about the Risen Savior.  Because it's all about Mary. 

 It's all about the incarnation when it's really all about his death and resurrection.  He said himself he came to die.  He did not come into the world to stay a baby or to be born.  The whole reason for his existence is HIS DEATH.   Paul talks about this in Corinthians.  If there was no resurrection, there would be no salvation.  

 

lulapilgrim
f you STILL think my saying this “is not right”, then instead of relying on your own interpretation of Scripture, you need to study more on the Doctrine of the Incarnation by reading the Church Fathers.

no thanks.  I'll stick to scripture instead of someone's interpretation of it.  

 

on Oct 10, 2011

I just read this while studying for my bible lesson this week.  It was written by JC Ryle, a preacher in the 1800's.  

 

"Let us note that a half knowledge of Scripture, a suppression of some texts, and a misapplicaton of other texts will account for a large portion of mistakes in religion.  In this way people get a heresy or a crotchet into their heads on some doctrinal point, and seem blind to the truth.  No heresies are so obstinately defended and so difficult to meet, as those which are based on a perverted view of some portion of Scripture.  In reading our bibles we must be careful to give every part and portion its due weight. "   

 

on Oct 10, 2011

Whew.  Lots of catching up.

I'm following...but am pretty much going to sit back and read now.  

Lula, I do believe KFC is right, about all of it.  That's exactly how I read scripture, how the Holy Spirit reveals it to me.  I'm sorry you don't see it that way .

My hope for you is that your personal relationship with Christ bears much fruit.   

I love you. 

on Oct 10, 2011

Lula posts

Yes, intercessory prayer is sanctioned in the Bible and praying to the Blessed Virgin is intercessory prayer. We are asking her to intercede to Jesus on our behalf. .....All through the Bible we find God conferring favors through the prayers of others. ....St.James 5:16 tells us "to pray for one another".

KFC posts:

Intercessory prayer is sanctioned. Yes. you have that right. BUT...Nowhere in scripture are we told to pray to anyone other than God. These are two different things. We pray ONLY to God thru the Son. ONLY. We also pray for others but we petition God ONLY.

Ok. We agree intercessory prayer is sanctioned. First point I need to clear up---the "pray to" 

A "prayer to" is a "petition to". When Catholics "pray to" the Blessed Mother or another Saint in Heaven, we are actually petitioning her or them to interecede to God on our behalf or to pray for us. It's not a "prayer to" them directly and that's it, but rather it is a "prayer to" God through them.

Our prayer to or petition is always directed to God; it's just directed to Him through them. We ask the Saints in Heaven (the Church Triumphant) to pray for us and praying for each other in the Body of Christ, (the Church Militant, the Church Triumphant, the Church Suffering) is simply a part of what Catholics do.

 

Of course we must pray directly to God or Christ--that is absolutely essential...and we do both in private and in public. The prayers of worship or adoration are the Holy Mass. They are always directed to God.

 

There are reasons to ask our fellow Christians in Heaven to pray or interecede for us. Their prayers are effective or else they would not be offered.  Whenever we ask the Blessed Mother or another Saint for something, they take our prayer request directly to God. Apoc. 8:3-4; 5;8.

These 2 passages show the Saints in Heaven (the Church triumphant) offer to God the prayers of us (hopefully future Saints-the Church Militant) on earth.

Since Apostolic times, Catholics have always asked the Blessed Virgin Mary and the other Saints in Heaven for their intercession. This practice is part of what is called "the Communion of the Saints" recited in the Apostles' Creed. It's only been attacked by the Protestant movement that started in the 16th century.   

Paul was writing coveting other's prayers on his behalf. THEY WERE ALIVE! Nowhere ever are we to pray to anyone who has left this side of eternity. WE ARE NOT TO PRAY TO DEAD PEOPLE. This is pagan.

Apoc. 5:8, where St.John depeicts the Siants in Heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "Golden bowlsfull of incense, which are the prayers of the Siants".

KFC, are the Saints in Heaven that Catholics ask for their prayers to God dead people? 

If they are in Heaven offering our prayers to God, they must be full of everlasting life, so alive they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our prayers of our petitions and present them to God nby interceding for us.

KFC, if the Saints in Heaven can present our prayers, why is it so inconceivable to you that they could not intercede for us?

The Saints in Heaven and we here in the Mystical Body have a connection...Christ. Christ said, Ia m the vine; you are the branches." i.e. branches deriving their life and value from Him, through Him and in Him.

Each member is incorporated in Christ and Christ lives in His members. Consequently any value in the prayers of others, including the Blessed Mother Mary and the other Saints in Heaven, is derived from Christ. It was in this sense that St.Paul wrote, I beseech you, help me by your prayers to God. 

Whose prayers will I ask? St.Paul asked his fellow Christians in Rome to pray for him to God. We also may do that. Also, in virtue of the Communion of Saints, we may ask the intercession of souls already in Heaven with God, and what better than to ask the prayers of Mary, the very Mother of Christ?

Well, this Catholic very often beseeches "prays to" the Blessed Mother to help me with her prayers to God. 

 

on Oct 11, 2011

lulapilgrim
A "prayer to" is a "petition to". When Catholics "pray to" the Blessed Mother or another Saint in Heaven, we are actually petitioning her or them to interecede to God on our behalf or to pray for us. It's not a "prayer to" them directly and that's it, but rather it is a "prayer to" God through them.

But Jesus taught us how to pray.  Why are you not listening to Him?  Not only that he showed us in John 17 which is the most famous intercessory prayer of all time.  He was interceding on our behalf just as Paul would write later that CHRIST was the ONLY mediator between God and man.  We can actually read his intercession for those who would come into the faith down the road and it's quite beautiful.  No need to go to another.  

lulapilgrim
Our prayer to or petition is always directed to God; it's just directed to Him through them. We ask the Saints in Heaven (the Church Triumphant) to pray for us and praying for each other in the Body of Christ, (the Church Militant, the Church Triumphant, the Church Suffering) is simply a part of what Catholics do.

and I say traditions are fine as long as they don't violate scripture.  This violates scripture.  The only scriptural part of your above statement is what I bolded.  There is NO "through" anybody.  That was what the whole veil of the temple being ripped apart was all about.  Again, you must read the book of Hebrews.  We have complete access to the throne of God now, through His Son ONLY.   We should have no fear or trepidation in going directly to God himself.  

lulapilgrim
Their prayers are effective or else they would not be offered.  Whenever we ask the Blessed Mother or another Saint for something, they take our prayer request directly to God. Apoc. 8:3-4; 5;8.

the saints are NOT dead people.  That is RCC stuff.  Remember we've been through this.  The Saints mentioned in scripture is just another word for the believers.  Remember Paul and the writers of the NT quite often directed their letters to the "Saints?" 

"To all Rome who are loved by God and called to be Saints."  Romans 1:7

"To the church of God in Corinth together with all the Saints throughout Achaia."  2 Cor 1:1

"To the Saints in Christ Jesus at Philippi..."  Philippians 1:1   ETC.  

This has NOTHING TO DO WITH DEAD PEOPLE.  That's ONLY in the RCC.  

lulapilgrim
These 2 passages show the Saints in Heaven (the Church triumphant) offer to God the prayers of us (hopefully future Saints-the Church Militant) on earth.

Where does it show these Saints are in Heaven?  It doesn't say that here.  It says the prayers of the Saints are being gathered but it says nothing about where these saints are but the context is showing they are on earth because there's a judgment going on in the earth as this is happening.  This is actually those who are praying or had prayed and lifted their prayers up to God from the earth to heaven.  Nothing to do with dead saints in heaven.  

lulapilgrim
KFC, are the Saints in Heaven that Catholics ask for their prayers to God dead people? 

Yes, they are physically dead, but spiritually alive with God.  Believe me the last thing they are concerned with is what is happening on this earth.  They are in heaven glorifying God and all else will pale in comparison.  They are in another world, another dimension.  This earth is most likely a distant memory at best.   How could they be at rest otherwise?  

lulapilgrim
Well, this Catholic very often beseeches "prays to" the Blessed Mother to help me with her prayers to God. 

and like I said.. it's between you and God.  You will have to answer for what you did with HIS WORD.  John 1:1.  You cannot separate Christ from His Word.  He is the Word.  You are in direct violation of it when you pray to anyone other than God himself. Like I said, there's nothing wrong with tradition as long as it doesn't violate scripture.  You are in violation and have been trained to pray like this.  Your training is man-made, not God centered.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

on Oct 13, 2011

Lula posts:

lulapilgrim
Catholics adore God alone, Father, Son and Holy Ghost...... Catholics the world over have held to a clear cut distinction between adoration-worship given to God alone and love and reverence for the Blessed Virgin Mary.

We love her and are devoted to her because God honored her above all others by choosing her to be the Mother of His only begotten Son. She receives special honor from Catholics even if Protestants think otherwise.

KFC posts:

KFC Kickin For Christ
what you "say" and what you "do" are two different things. There's a word for that. Your obvious devotion and defense of Mary here contradict your words. By your own words you are condemning yourself. You say you do not adore her but then you say you are devoted to her? Huh? (See highlighted)

What I say IS what I do.  I'm no hypocrite, if that's the word you are referring to.

I can't help it if you can't understand or refuse to understand the difference between adoration and worship God and having love, devotion and honor for the Blessed Virgin Mary (and the other Saints in Heaven). I can't help it if you draw a false dichotomy between worship and adoration of God Himself and love, devotion, honor and veneration of the BVM and those other Saints in Heaven who show forth His glory by displaying the Grace He gave them to be what they are. Where does it tell you to do that in Scripture?

 

..............................

Lula posts:

lulapilgrim
You as you say, go to Jesus directly, but why not go to Mary as well. ONe does not exclude the other. Is not Mary the Mother of Jesus? Is not a pure and devoted Mother more influential than we are with her Son? Doesn't your Bible say that David asked the Saints to give thanks to God for him? then why not ask Mary, the Saint of Saints, to take your petitiions to her dearly beloved Son?

KFC posts:

KFC Kickin For Christ
AND THIS JUST PROVES MY POINT! Why not? Because Jesus TOLD US NOT TO. He told us how to pray.

No, THIS DOES NOT PROVE YOUR POINT.

Why? Yes, Jesus taught us how to pray but the "Our Father" prayer does not prohibit intercessory prayer which is what prayers to the BVM and the other Saints in Heaven are.

KFC Kickin For Christ
... Nowhere in the scriptures are we told to EVER go to anyone BUT HIM. Why? Like you even said earlier...1st commandment. See...you say one thing but DO another. When you pray to another, it's a form of worship or idolatry.

The First Commandment says we are to worship/adore God Alone. Going to the Blessed Mary, the Mother of Jesus, with intercessory prayer is not against the First Commandment of Almighty God and therefore not a form of worship or idolatry. 

So, I'm not saying one thing and doing another. Far from it.

on Oct 13, 2011

KFC posts:

KFC Kickin For Christ
Praying to Mary IS NOT intercessory prayer. It's worship. You are worshiping her when you pray to her. Paul didn't tell others to pray to him did he? He didn't pray to them did he? NO! A thousand times no. He asked them to petition God (as Christ taught) on his behalf. That's what intercessory prayer is. Praying to Mary is idolatry. You will answer for that.

See the bold. Same thing with me and other Catholics who pray to the BVM and other Saints in Heaven. We ask them to petition God on our behalf of for the behalf of someone else.

The Blessed Virgin Mary, along with all the Angels and Saints (Abraham, Moses, St.Paul, Saints Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, etc.) are in Heaven with Christ, Our King. Praying to them are prayers to God through her/their intersession.

Intercession is a prayer of petition...asking on behalf of another. We may ask intercession of our brethren, souls already in Heaven with God.  The Old and New Testament plainly teach of asking the prayers of others, especially the just! St.James 6:16-18.

Lula posts:

lulapilgrim
KFC, are the Saints in Heaven that Catholics ask for their prayers to God dead people?

KFC Kickin For Christ
KFC, are the Saints in Heaven that Catholics ask for their prayers to God dead people?

Yes, they are physically dead, but spiritually alive with God. Believe me the last thing they are concerned with is what is happening on this earth. They are in heaven glorifying God and all else will pale in comparison. They are in another world, another dimension. This earth is most likely a distant memory at best. How could they be at rest otherwise?

Agree, all the Saints (Souls) in Heaven are alive. 

In Hebrews 12:1, St.Paul says, "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses (in Greek, martus, martyr), ..."

Catholics think these saints in Heaven as a "cloud of witnesses" are watching those on earth.  They are aware of happenings here and they care...they greatly care and they are involved in them. Surely, those who prayed for their brethren while upon earth, don't lose all interest in them once they are in Heaven.

Of this St.Jerome writes, "If Apostles and martyrs, while still in the flesh and still needing to care for themselves, can pray for others, how much more will they pray for others after they have won their crowns, their victories, their triumpths? Moses, one man, obtains God's pardon for six hundred thousand armed men, and Stephen prays for his persecuters. When they are with Christ will they be less powerful? St.Paul says that 276 souls were granted to his prayers, while they were in the ship with him. Shall he lose his lips after death, and not mutter a syllable for those who throughout the world have believed in his Gospel?" 

Catholics believe the Saints in Heaven are alive, they love us can pray for us and hear our prayer requests. They are so near to God that their intercession is powerful.  Praying to them asking their intercession is not idolatry. We are not trying to preplace God with the BVM or the other Saints in Heaven. Idolatry is worshipping someone or something in place of God Almighty, and honoring or being devoted to the BVM or another Saint or asking them to pray for us is fundamentally different. 

KFC Kickin For Christ
Believe me the last thing they are concerned with is what is happening on this earth. They are in heaven glorifying God and all else will pale in comparison. They are in another world, another dimension. This earth is most likely a distant memory at best. How could they be at rest otherwise?

This is Calvin's teaching and he was wrong and so are you. You want simply to go straight to God and bypass all the mediating functions of the saints. This makes no more sense than it would to ignore the aid of fellow Christians whom we ask to pray for us.

Besides, Biblical evidence supports that the Saints in Heaven have a connection to us here on earth. I've already given several. they watch us, Hebrews 12:1. They are aware of earthly happenings, Apoc. 6:9-10.  If they are not interested in us then,

KFC, why are there so many instances of souls in Heaven having contact with the living with the full consent of God?  such as Moses and Elijah appearing with Jesus at the Transfiguration? How about Samuel's appearance to Saul and many Saints who rose from the dead and appeared to many in Jerusalem after Jesus' death? St.Matt. 27: 52-53.

Then there is the Blessed Mother's appearance to the three children at Fatima, Portugal in 1517 and the miracle of the sun which the newspapers published?

They certainly have been given extrqdorinary capacities (here after I'll call them powers), for knowledge of God. In 1 Cor. 13:12, St.Paul tells us, "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood."

Therefore, they can pray for us and we can ask them for their intercession and prayers to God.

 I find it far more difficult to understand or apprehend that the union of all in Christ would be sterile or fruitless bond as far as the relationship of  member to member is concerned. Or that the prayer of a just man, as St. James says, only while that just man still lives on this earth; and that he should lose all interest in us and power to pray for us, because he has been transferred to Heaven.

on Oct 13, 2011

 Lula posts:

lulapilgrim
Our prayer to or petition is always directed to God; it's just directed to Him through them. We ask the Saints in Heaven (the Church Triumphant) to pray for us and praying for each other in the Body of Christ, (the Church Militant, the Church Triumphant, the Church Suffering) is simply a part of what Catholics do.

KFC Posts:

KFC Kickin For Christ
and I say traditions are fine as long as they don't violate scripture. This violates scripture. The only scriptural part of your above statement is what I bolded. There is NO "through" anybody. That was what the whole veil of the temple being ripped apart was all about. Again, you must read the book of Hebrews. We have complete access to the throne of God now, through His Son ONLY. We should have no fear or trepidation in going directly to God himself.

The doctrine of the Communion of Saints does not violate Scripture. It does come to us through the Apostle's Creed though which is definitely Apostolic Tradition.

The communion of Saints is the common union of all who love Christ. The Church unites us all in one great Christian family. That great family of the children of God include the Church Triumphant in Heaven, the Church Militant on earth, and the Church Suffering in Purgatory. All the children of this great spiritual family are not strangers to each other.  

In the NT, Jesus makes all those who belong to Him members of Himself. He is the Eternal Head and we are the members. We are all members of the One Christ and members of Christ on earth can benefit from members of Christ in Heaven.

The members are for each other. So, I, a poor little member of Christ can appeal to the much more nobler perfected members of Christ in the persons of Mary and the other Saints in Heaven. 

Both Scripture and Tradition teach that the perfected Saints, by God's grace, have come to possess an actual share in His Divine power. He is pleased to make it possible for them to help us in many ways and intercession is but one.So, I am appealing to Him after all, I, in Christ, appeal to Christ in other members whom He has deigned to to associate more closely with Himself and any hope I have in their intercession is in the name of Christ and through His one great mediation with God the Father.

Lastly, the fact that Our Lord Jesus Christ is Mediator is not question. Asking the BVMary or an other Saint in Heaven to pray for us no more interferes with the unique mediation of Christ than does asking a person on earth to pray for us. Catholics always pray in Christ, through His power and to Him, whether it is directly to Him, or by means of another person or soul in Heaven or on earth.

Your criticism is merely due to the fact that Protestantism has shrunk the scope of the sacred in reality and thus you have no real knowledge of the true Christian religion. Time after time, I've given Biblical examples refuting your false assertions against Catholicism and you won't admit that because of your defensive Protestant fortress mentality.

 

 

 

 

 

on Oct 14, 2011

KFC Kickin For Christ
the saints are NOT dead people. That is RCC stuff. Remember we've been through this. The Saints mentioned in scripture is just another word for the believers. Remember Paul and the writers of the NT quite often directed their letters to the "Saints?"

"To all Rome who are loved by God and called to be Saints." Romans 1:7

"To the church of God in Corinth together with all the Saints throughout Achaia." 2 Cor 1:1

"To the Saints in Christ Jesus at Philippi..." Philippians 1:1 ETC.

This has NOTHING TO DO WITH DEAD PEOPLE. That's ONLY in the RCC.

That's what I have said all along. The Saints are not dead people.

That's why I asked you this question to get you thinking.

lulapilgrim
KFC, are the Saints in Heaven that Catholics ask for their prayers to God dead people?

As far as the saints mentioned in Scripture in these passages you cited, these people St.Paul called "saints" were still alive when he was writing to these Churches.

 

Note, I was clear about the Saints I was talking about....the Saints (who had died) and in Heaven.

You and I by, virtue of our Baptism, are called to be Saints as in Romans 1:7.  You may call yourself a "saint", now but I wouldn't and I wouldn't call myself one either, not by a long shot! 

The Mormons call themselves "The Church of Latter Day Saints"....are they saints? I don't thinkso. For starters, they believe Christ is a God. 

...........................................

lulapilgrim
There are reasons to ask our fellow Christians in Heaven to pray or interecede for us. Their prayers are effective or else they would not be offered. Whenever we ask the Blessed Mother or another Saint for something, they take our prayer request directly to God. Apoc. 8:3-4; 5:8.

These 2 passages show the Saints in Heaven (the Church triumphant) offer to God the prayers of us (hopefully future Saints-the Church Militant) on earth.

KFC Kickin For Christ
Where does it show these Saints are in Heaven? It doesn't say that here. It says the prayers of the Saints are being gathered but it says nothing about where these saints are but the context is showing they are on earth because there's a judgment going on in the earth as this is happening. This is actually those who are praying or had prayed and lifted their prayers up to God from the earth to heaven. Nothing to do with dead saints in heaven.

First of all ... your last sentence..the Saints in Heaven are NOT DEAD.

Yes, Apoc. 8:3-4 and 5:8 both concern the prayers of the Saints.

Re: 5:8,

They are real prayers said by real people whether from the past (dead and Sainted souls in Heaven) or present. The prayers of the Saints have been noticed by the Four Living Beings and then forwarded to the 24 priests each have harps and bowls of incense and then given to the One sitting on the Throne. 

Later, in Apoc. 8: 1-4, the angel adds the incense to the prayers of the Saints which is a symbol for the combined prayers of those on earth, and the souls of the Saints already in Heaven, along with the angels 6:9-10. To Catholics, this is the Communion of the Saints and they make manifest the "cloud of witnesses" to whom we are united and who show us there is a dynamic  relationship between heaven and earth.

Apoc. makes clear the judgments upon the world are initiated by the prayers of the Church, whether who you call the saints on earth, I'd call the Church Militant and the Chruch Triumphant in Heaven.

 

on Oct 14, 2011

lulapilgrim
Well, this Catholic very often beseeches "prays to" the Blessed Mother to help me with her prayers to God.

I have shown that praying to the Blessed Mother to ask her to help me with her prayers to God is rooted in God's Word.

KFC Kickin For Christ
and like I said.. it's between you and God. You will have to answer for what you did with HIS WORD. John 1:1. You cannot separate Christ from His Word. He is the Word.

May I remind you of what the Protestants did with God's Word?

The Protestant King James Version in verse 13 has added “for thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory, forever and forever. Amen.”

This addition was not Christ’s word and not part of His "Our Father" prayer, yet it's found in the KJV in bright red as though they were!

How about the fact that Protestants ditched 7 Books of God's Word?How pleased do you think Our Lord is with that? 

KFC Kickin For Christ
You are in direct violation of it when you pray to anyone other than God himself. Like I said, there's nothing wrong with tradition as long as it doesn't violate scripture. You are in violation and have been trained to pray like this. Your training is man-made, not God centered.

Are you in violation of anything when you pray this man-made addition to the "Our Father" as though they are His Word?

 

on Oct 14, 2011

KFC posts:

KFC Kickin For Christ
Some people say the RCC is both pagan and Christian, a mixture. Some come right out and say the whole system is Pagan.

Ya, I know what some people say.

Ever hear of the late Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen? I bet your parents have. He's on the road to formally being declared a Saint. Of these charges, he said, "There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church, which of course, is quite a different thing."

 

KFC Kickin For Christ
That's why my mother left. She came face to face with the fact that she was in a pagan system all along. She loved her church as you do. It wasn't easy. But she loved the truth more.

I'm not telling you this because of any other reason than I want you to see the truth. You're in a system that runs contrary to the God of scripture.

 

Then you and your Mom should discover this Biblical truth from St.Paul to Timothy. "I write these things to thee...that thou mayest know how to conduct thyself in the house of God, which is the Church of the living God (Christ), the pillar and mainstay of truth."

As Protestants you are not members of St.Paul's "Church of the living God, the pillar and mainstay of truth." This is becasue no such "church" exists in the Protestant religious system. You are both lost sheep outside the one Fold, the one Body, the one true Faith of Christ. 

The "church" to which you belong is a group of people who believe instead that the Bible and the Bible only is the sole rule of Faith. This despite the fact that those who have made the Bible their sole rule of Faith have come up with hundreds if not thousands (I can't keep up) of conflicting rules of faith.

The Protestant doctrine of the Bible alone as the sole rule of faith is a false idea.

KFC Kickin For Christ
You're in a system that runs contrary to the God of scripture.

No, my dear. The only Church that fits the description of CHurch found in the Bible is the Catholic Church. It was/is the CC vested with the infallible authority given it by OUr Lord that gave us the Bible, and it is only through the authority of the CC that we know for certain that the Bible is truly the Word of God. That's why Saint Augustine said, "I would not believe the Gospel itself, if the authority of the CC did not move me to do so."

You, not I, are in the system that runs contrary to the God of Scripture. 

Scripture tells us that Christ's Church has been given the mandate to teach and preach to all nations until Christ comes again at the end of the world. 

"Catholic doctrine tells us that the primary duty of charity does not lie in the toleration of false ideas, however sincere they may be, nor in the theoretical or practical indifference towards the errors and vices in which we see our brethren plunged....Further, whilst Jesus was kind to sinners and to those who went astray, He did not respect their false ideas, however sincere as they may have appeared. He loved them all, but He instructed them in order to convert them and save them." Pope Saint Pius X, Our Apostolic Mandate, August 25, 1910.

"There will be one fold and one Shepherd"....

If she were not the only true and saving Church, founded by Christ, how could she have existed so long, since Jesus Himself said:

"Every plant which my Heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up"? St.Matt. 15:13.

  

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