First of all you obviously missed the point about going to commentaries. I can go to commentaries to and parade them around as if they really are some kind of authority on the issue (because you or I say they do).

I can care less if you give me commentary from the Pope. The bottom line is you made an accusation against me that you cannot effectively prove without commentary hearsay or twisting of the words that are clearly written (or conveniently omitting words).

What accusation? I thought we were having a discussion here?

What am I trying to prove? It's you who's trying to prove something. Not me. You started this whole discussion.

Douay Rheims version: 1 Cor. 5:7-8 Purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new paste, as you are unleavened. For Christ our Pasch is sacrificed. 8 Therefore, let us feast, not with the old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Also v.8, other translations have it as you have been discussing, "Therefore, let us celebrate the festival,..."


AD Posts:



Here St.Paul was dealing with the Corinthian community making them aware of their responsibility as a community of Jesus Christ. In v. 1-5, he tells them that this gross case of immorality had its effects on all...that the moral force of all is weakened by it.

He uses examples taken from the Jewish celebration of the Passover and the Azymes (without leaven) to draw spiritual lessons for the Corinthians. At the Jewish Pasch, as also on the 7 days following, also feast days, the old leaven and everything leavened with it had to be cleared out of the house.


The central statement which he assumes to be known, "Christ, our Paschal Lamb, has been sacrificed," is of the utmost importance and the only NT evidence that already in Apostolic times Christ was understood as the Paschal Lamb. This means that in practice the whole Old Testament paschal typology was understood in a Christian sense--the great feast of the Old Covenant commemmorating the people's deliverance was carried over into the feast of the New COvenant. The whole of Christian life is understood in a paschal sense as life in deliverance, and thus a feast or festival.



AD POSTS:


Jesus Christ, our Passover, our Paschal Lamb, "has been sacrificed". The paschal lamb was a promise and a prefigurement of the true Lamb, Jesus Christ who was the victim of the sacrifice on Calvary, offered on behalf of all mankind. Catholics at Mass say, "He is the true lamb who took away the sins of the world; by dying He destroyed our death, by rising He restored our life."

The perennial value of the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross renewed everytime Mass is celebrated means that Christians are always celebrating a festival. So, St.Paul concludes Christians should eliminate from community life and personal life the old leaven, which in the context of the festival symbolizes impurity and sinfullness and they should always live a genuinely Christian life, with azymes, the symbol of purity and cleanliness, of "sincerety and truth".

The present time is, then, a festival day. The whole time of salvation since Christ's death is basically a single paschal celebration. That's why the Jewish ceremonial can be transposed into the spiritual. When St.Paul says, "Let us celebrate the festival", he doesn't add for Passover or Pentecost is immenent. No, he's pointing out that all this life is a festival for Christians by virtue of the ineffable benefits they have received.

We have received wonders from God. For our sakes, Jesus Christ has become man; He has freed us from eternal damnation, to call us to take possession of His kingdom. With this in mind, how can we not be in continuous festival right through our life on earth? Poverty, sickness, or the persecution which oppresses us, these shouldn't discourage us.

That I took 1 Cor 5 out of context.

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I understand your spiritual point. I am in agreement with you about how the feasts can be applied to everyday life. Yom Kipur a day to repent of the sins you unknowingly committed. Do I think this is applicable to everyday life? Absolutely.

The same goes for Passover and feast of Unleavened bread. The reason why I have kept focus on the issue of 1 Cor 5 is that the feast is still important.

There is much to reflect upon and it is important to understand that it is the feast of unleavened bread that explains 1 Cor 5 not 1 Cor 5 explaining the feast. There are many rabbis who have applied the spiritual aspect of cleaning out the leaven in our hearts as we clean out the leaven from our house. This is taught in Judaism.

Have you ever really tried to take all the leaven out of your house? It is near impossible. The other aspect of this time is to think about what you are eating (physically and spiritually). As I pay attention to the ingredients of the food I eat during this time every once in a great while I some how miss something that I ate that had leavening in it (which is also in Exodus). The symbolism in the spiritual aspect is to keep us thinking about what we allow in our hearts spiritually and no matter how much we are on guard periodically things sneak in.

I'm not really trying to make a point other than for you to study the scriptures with the words that are written. I believe a while back you said you believed the Bible to be literal as well as spiritual or am I mistaken?

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Sometimes I wonder if you think Jews don't have a spiritual side to them. As if we are some kind of robots BOUND by the law of Moses. Most practicing Jews will tell you that it is through the law we are actually free. Each shabbat in synagogues around the world Aytz Chaim which is translated into English as:

NOTE: This is chanted after returning the Torah back to the Ark.

It is a tree of life to those who take hold of it, an those who support it are praiseworthy. Its ways are ways of pleasantness and all its paths are peace...

The Hebrew word here for Peace is Shalom. Shalom by its definition is harmonious relationship with G-D.

Another way that I look at the Torah is similar to your example of 'grace.' We have roads that can take you anywhere. All of the roads in the US have 'rules' that are to be followed. The rules protect you from harming others, harming yourself, and others harming you. It is in these bounds that we are free to move about the world with security knowing it is the rules protecting us not 'binding' us (although some teenagers may disagree ). It is when we disregard the rule and are caught (sin) that we can achieve grace through Our L-RD (as you described).

All of the Torah can be applied to the spiritual level. Most Jews I know understand that.

I see it as a little of both.

St. Paul wanted to illuminate moral teaching to the Corinthian community from a Christian point of view..it must preserve its Resurrection purity and newness of life. St.Paul shows how this is so in the context of leaven which plays a significant role. For St.Paul it is an expressive image for the newness and oneness appropriate to the life of faith and morals of Christians.





Yes, I think Jews are spiritual...I know this becasue of the love they show for one another....the mystery of love of Almighty God and neighbor.

It's just little things...what I'd call their "saintly" way of living that I know Jews are spirtual...they practice the virtues and good will towards their fellow man.




I know exactly what you mean. Practicing Christians know that true freedom is found in Christ who came to fulfill the Law. "take up My yoke upon you...and you shall find rest to your souls!" St.Matt. 11:29.






Today is the last day of the Holy Catholic Church's eight days' celebration of the Feast of the Resurrection victory of the King of Peace. Christ's way of declaring victory was by His Resurrection greeting "Peace be to you!"

If we let Him, our Savior greets us in our innermost soul and heart, every hour in the day, "My peace be to you".

and that's fine AD.  If you think the Feast is important you should keep it.  I'm not mocking this. I think it's a fine tradition to keep myself especially for the Jewish Believers.  But I would disagree with you only when you insist we MUST keep these feasts. 

 I'm just saying we're not bound to keeping the OT Law and that includes the Feasts of the OT.  Paul mentions this when he talks about not judging a brother in the keeping of a holy day or in respect to the new moon or the Sabbath days.  He says this many times in many places like in Romans 14:1-3

"For one believes that may eat all things; another who is weak, eats only herbs.  Let not him that eats despise him that eats not; and let not him which eats not judge him that eats for God has received him." 

No, I don't thing the Jews are especially spiritual or non spiritual...meaning I don't think it's anything different than the Christians.  You have some in name only and you have some in works only and you have some that are very spiritual. 

I think of you as a thinker who is deeply spiritual.  I have a Jewish friend here (last name Rubin) who things the whole religious thing Jewish or otherwise is crap. He's very prideful of his Jewish heritage but not the religious part.  He goes to the local synagogue for the food and fellowship.  So I'd say he's Jewish but not spiritual at all.  Most of the Jews I've met personally are NOT religious Jews.  Even the guy who writes in the local paper is a very modern Jew who doesn't seem to "get it."  

Remember also I do have a Jewish background although never grew up in that faith.  I did have an  old Uncle who was a Jew.  He was an atheist.  He hated the thought of God.  We could never talk about God in his presence.  Your Jewish community and experience is far different than mine.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this? 

I mean when I think of the stories....like Adam and Eve.....Noah and such I think of them as real physical human beings.  There is spiritual truth in all the stories but I don't look at them particularly as symbolic or spiritual.  I'm hoping you mean the same? 

 

I think to be  a Messianic Jew is the best of the best.  I think of a Jew who believes in the Messiah, that has come,  as a completed Jew.  I love to listen to them talk (like Marv Rosenthal) about their Jewish upbringings and how they bring all those traditions into focus as Christ in the center of it all. 

And I would say the same to you.  Over the years of, sometimes intense study, I have changed my stance on a thing or two.  I'm far less dogmatic than I used to be about certain things.  I think that comes with age and study. 

I do believe the Bible is literal and spiritual.  But I'm very careful not to spiritualize something meant as literal and vise versa.  That's probably one of the biggest crimes in misinterpretation of the bible.   If you spiritulize something meant to be literal you can make it be anyting you want it to be. 

 

My experience is just the opposite with the few Jews I've known personally over the years and that's why I said what I said above. That's truly how they are....and all of them, btw, happen to be orthodox and that may be the difference, I don't know.

I'm curious what in Jeremias and Ezekiel has to support this.

The word "Easter" has no connection with the name "Ishtar", the goddess of the Babylonians. "Easter" is an Anglo-Saxon word from the teutonic "Eostre", an ancient German goddess of light. From an etymological point of view, one would have a better case trying to trace the origin of the Christian "Easter" to ancient German mythology than to that of ancient Babylonians.

But even that wouldn't work. Not only becasue the significance of the Christian Easter isn't found in German mythology, but becasue the feast designated by the word "Easter" existed long before that term was applied to it.



I don't know when or from where bunnies came into the Easter scene.

It was eggs and buns that were the usual symbols used in springtime long before Christianity came on the scene. The eggs as you say, symbolized germinating life, and the buns symbolized the fruits of the earth. These symbols were used among the pagans when Christians were celebrating "Paschal" time.

And yes, understanding the symbols were harmless, the Chruch allowed converted pagans to retain the customs of eggs and buns. And an entirely new symbolism was given to their simple habits of feasting on eggs and buns, namely a new life won for humanity by the Resurrection of Christ, and the fact that He is the Bread of our true supernatural and eternal life.

In Jeremiah 7 we see God saying he would not listen to their prayers. He called to them, they would not listen so now he would not hear them. Why?

Because they were making cakes in their worship of the Queen of Heaven also known as Ishtar. V18 says:

"The children gather wood and the fathers kindle the fire and the women kead their dough to make cakes to the Queen of Heaven and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods that they may provoke me to anger."

Ishtar is the wife of Nimrod (Gen 11) who built the Tower of Babal. I'm not sure (have to do further checking) but there is a goddess named Semerimus involved also and not sure if the same one with two diff names or if one is the wife of Tammuz. Get the connection now? Anyhow their son Tammuz was killed and from there on he and this Ishtar were worshipped. Mother and son worship was very common in the pagan world. There are many instances in history you could find on this.

Many believe that when Constantine took over the religion of Rome, all that was done was crosses were put on pagan temples and the worship of Ishtar and Tammuz was transferred to the worship of Mary (Queen of Heaven) and Jesus. The whore of Babylon (Rev 17) would refer to this but really goes back to Gen 11 in that Babylon was the beginning of false worship with the Tower of Babel.

Google Nimrod and Tower of Babel sometime....you'd be very surprised at what you see Lula.

More scripture on this:

Jeremiah 44:17, Ezek 8:14

Here's a very good link that does this whole subject justice...better than I could do...

Even included is the egg and the bunny...but more interesting is the whole Tammuz, Nimrod Ishtar (Easter) connection. 

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t020.html

KFC, this may be where I fundamentally disagree with you. It's not ME that is insisting that you MUST keep Torah or even the feasts. The very notion of me doing so would be legalism. Granted in the past I do strongly support that the Torah is still valid and NOT done away with (which you agree if not only partially).

I keep the Torah and the feasts NOT for myself! I keep them because G-D says to. In the Torah G-D calls us to be a priestly nation a holy and sanctified (set apart) people. Rejecting or disobeying the Torah meant that person was cut off or stoned depending upon the offense.

I did not grow up in a Jewish home. In fact to most Jews I would not be considered a Jew. Because I cannot say for certainty that I have Jewish ancestry and although there are some circumstances (such as when my family left Germany) that may suggest there is significant possibility. I have not sought out this in its entirety lest I boast about it. In all honesty it really matters not whether I have Jewish ancestry or not because according to Torah much of my family rejected Torah which yielded in being 'cut off' so even if we are Jewish we would be cut off.

I see myself more like Caleb who was 'adopted' into the tribe of Judah when he is a descendant of Esau. I am thankful the G-D has ALWAYS provided a way for those outside could be grafted in.



It sounds as if we are meaning the same just saying it differently.

I agree with you AD. This is where we fundamentally have a disagreement. I see you as still stuck in the OT and I don't see anywhere where the Feasts were given to the church. The only two things I see given to the church are Baptism and Communion. That's it.



And as a Nation, they did not do that. Yes, sometimes they kept the outward feasts and sacrifices, but God said they meant nothing to him because their sin was so bad he despised their feasts. Now he says the same thing to the Gentiles..to be set apart and holy as he is holy. Sanctification is an ongoing process.

So when Christ came, he came to his own, just like the Prophets before him and they killed him just as they did HIS prophets. The Triumphal Entry was anything but. There was no Triumph at all on that day. Sadly he turned, on that day, from his own Nation and wept over Jerusalem and turned to the Gentiles after he said:

"If you had known even you, at least in this your day, the things which belong to your peace! But now they are hid from your eyes."

You can see by looking at the gospels how he called the temple in the beginning of his ministry "his house" and then near the end he calls it "your house" as in "your house is left desolate." That's because His glory had departed for the time being.

Now 2,000 years later, I'm seeing the same thing happening to the church. They too, are leaving him and turning to false gods in droves and he says in similar fashion...."behold I stand at the door and knock if anyone let me in I would come in." Here is Christ standing outside his own church knocking to be let in. Not too many are opening the door these days.

So I can't see anywhere where the Gentiles are told to pick up where the Jews left off. It's just not there...and showing me the Apostles celebrating the feasts doesn't make a case. They used those opportunities as well as the Sabbaths to preach the resurrected Christ and most of the time were run out of town by the Jews.

To worship God, they met on the first day of the week with like minded new converts because the Jews were not about to let them have audience in the temple.

As I see it, the only thing that we are to keep is the Ten Commandments of God becasue God gave them to us out of love and for our good for our temporal welfare and our eternal salvation. They apply to all mankind at all times. God wrote them on stone to signify that they are durable and are to last for all ages. We Christians ought to observe the commandments more perfectly than what was expected of the Israelites for Our Lord said, "I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."



But AD, this is an impossibility....it began at Christ's death on the Cross at Calvary...
The tearing of the gold and purple veil which screened the Holy of Holies from the eyes of the people did visibly proclaim the end of the old MOsaic covenant, the end of its rites and ceremonies, the end of the Holy of Holies itself.




Yes, exactly, KFC. After Calvary, there must have been terrifying scenes throughout Jerusalem...it was in reality the beginning of the "Abomination of Desolation" in the temple.

Osee 3:4 describes the religious poverty and famine of the former people of God. Ever since 70AD, the Jewish nation has wondered about without priest, without altar and without sacrifices. It's the literal fulfillment of the prophecy of Osee 3:3-4. "For the children of Israel shall sit many days without king and without prince, and without sacrifice and without altar, and without ephod, and without theraphim. And after this, the children of Israel shall return, as shall seek the Lord their GOd, and David, their king, and they shall fear the Lord, and His goodness in the last days."

KFC POSTS:



KFC,

Jeremias and Ezekiel fail to show any connection whatsoever between our Christian Easter and Isthar. They also fail to support your assertion that

Jeremias 7 tells that the people of Judah felt sure that having the temple in the territoty would guarantee them divine favor and protection...but religious practice was far from being in line with GOd's commands...the rites performed in the temple are of no avail if people won't listen to God and continue to commit sins. They must mend their ways. Despite his preaching, Jeremias finds they fail to repent. Not only don't they listen to him, they think the Temple guarantees their safety and combine that with paganistic rites V. 18 in honor of Isthar, the Assyrian goddess of fertility and "queen of heaven". For this Judah was destroyed.

44:17-19, picks up on this same theme. They've fallen into idolatry; taken up with false gods, even the women are practicing idolatry, honoring Isthar.

Ezekiel 8:14 is concerned with sins of idolatry committed within the Temple.

As I've said, neither the word "Easter" nor the celebration of it can be connected with the "Ishtar", the pagan goddess of the Babylonians.

"Easter" is derived from an Anglo-Saxon word "Eostre", an ancient German goddess of light and has to do with a spring festival.

"Eostre" has become the English equivalent of the Hebraic word "Pasch" or Passover. The date of Easter is fixed according to the Jewish method and may vary between March 22 and April 25th. For Catholics, this is a triumphant and joyous feast (festival) which contains all the mysteries from Jesus' immolation, to His triumpth on the Cross, and His rising forth from the sepulcher. In the liturgy of the Church, then and now, we celebrate the Easter cycle commemorating the mysteries of Christ's Resurrection,Ascension, and Descent of the Holy Ghost on His Church.

Every year at Easter, the Church rejoices that Chist is Risen and many of her children are redeemed. The Paschal candal which was lighted from the newly blessed fire symbolizes the Risen Christ who "is the Light of the world".


You are mistaken to say that we get Easter from the pagan god Ishtar. To reiterate, there is nothing whatsoever to link the Catholic Paschal feast of Easter with ancient paganism or the Babylonian goddess Ishtar.

"Easter"...."Ishtar"....All I can think of is that at best you are relying on a superficial similiarity between the pronounciation of "Easter" with that of "Ishtar". As synomyms, they sound like one another. However, resemblances or similiarities do not imply descent or connection.

The Christian liturgy and festival springs from the feast from biblical Judaism. The paschal lamb slain by the Israelites was typical of Christ and as the Christ risen as we say on the third day, in English, "Easter" has been retained.

And yes, our Easter feast days happen to fall in the spring season. But Babylonnian mythology and false honoring of Ishtar had nothing to do with this. We are honoring the Risen Christ, not spring, not fertility, not eggs, or bunnies.