I believe everything you told me and know exactly how you're feeling about this.  This stuff happens too much to be considered a coincidence. 

Remember the sweater incidence I told you about before we moved here?  I bought a sweater last January, after coming here to Florida,  when we went back home.  It was a very heavy LL Bean sweater.  I heard a very distinct voice in my head on the way home from the store that said to give it to a certain person in church.  I dismissed it thinking I was just making myself feel guilty about the purchase.  I really wanted to wear this sweater.  Everytime I went to wear the sweater the next two months during the winter cold I'd hear that same line to give it away.  I couldn't wear it the feeling was so strong. 

God knew we were moving to Florida, even tho we were only flirting with the idea, and by August we made the decision.  In the meantime I did give this brand new sweater, tags and all to the lady I was told to and it opened up a floodgate I was not expecting.  She had been going thru hard times and had thought God had abandoned her all those months before.  I should have been better obedient and given her the sweater right away.    Two months later we were in Florida and I never did wear that sweater. 

That's the short version.

Bizzare. 

didn't I make that clear...?  I said this:

They were already cleansed by the Passover where Christ shed his blood for them. Remember this was years after the Passover he's speaking of here.  They were justified, now they were to keep lives of purity and not return to the Old Leaven of malice and hypocricy and he compared it to keeping the Feast of Unleavened Bread. 

KFC, my concern is that you are standing on implications and not with what is written.

It says specifically in 11 Cor 5:8.

"Therefore let us keep the feast.(KJV)"

It doesn't say, let us remember the communion, or let us do communion, or do this weekly,monthly. It is talking specifically about a feast. You even stated that it is the feast of Unleavened bread and Passover. I know of no scriptural reference that says keep *specific* feast whenever you want to. Do you?

yes, but it doesn't stand alone.  Communion was not a word used in scripture.  While we see the principle of communion they didn't have a name other than it was a New Covenant that Christ instituted at the Last Supper.  It took a while for the newly formed church to come up with these new traditions and in this case communion. 

You have to take his words out of context to make it say what you wish it to say AD.  You are pulling this out and not expositing it from the verses that are attached to it.  When you look at a section of scripture you have to look for the main point and ask the who, what, when and why questions.  Is he talking about a speicific feast?  Is he teaching a spiritual truth?   What is his main point here? 

It's quite clear in the exposition of scripture that he's teaching a spiritual truth.  He's not advising them to go to a certain feast.  Remember the context.  Where did he write this letter?  How long did it take for them to get this letter?  When was the Passover with Christ as  the Lamb celebrated in conjunction with this cleaning out of leaven? 

 

 

 

 

Ok let's do.

Who: Paul writing to the congregation in Corinth.
What: the discussion is about impurities (immoralities) under the analogy of leaven (a picture of Passover)
The time around Passover is scripturally a time to remove ALL leaven from the house a symbol of removing the leaven in our heart (Ex 12:15).
When: Probably written before Passover, a time where we are to reflect about the leaven in our house and heart.
"Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. (1 Cor 5:8, KJV)"
Unless we need to get into verbs especially regarding "let us" it seems pretty plain to me that they are about to partake or are partaking in Passover.
Why:In the Torah we are instructed to clean out our houses of any leaven which represents our lives. There is immorality in the congregation in Corinth which is a sin (by the law of Torah). Sin is equated with leavening and we are to rid ourselves from the leavening in our lives. Paul summarizes his statement in vs 13 "Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."

If I have taken any of this out of context please reprove me.

First off we have no indication this timing has anything to do with Passover at all.  It took weeks for them to get this letter, if not months.  When he wrote this he had no idea when they would actually receive it.  You're assuming they received this at Passover but there is not indication this is so.   But it could have been as you seem to think.  I'm not ruling that out. He could be writing this with the thought of the Feast looming ahead of him regardless of when they receive the letter and he's applying this analogy to them in lieu of the upcoming feast. 

In other parts of scripture especially the gospels but not limited to we'd read something like "The Festival drew near" or "Jesus went up to the Feasts" or "they traveled to make sure they were near Jerusalem to go up to the feasts."  Here it's more vague. 

Did they still celebrate the feasts?  Yes I believe they did. But that's not the point of this whole passage.   I think the early Christians, most of them Jewish in the beginning kept the feasts with a whole new meaning to them as Christ being the fulfillment of them. 

Notice here in 5:7 he's not just talking about leaven as you would in the physical normative sense.  He's speaking of them as being a "new lump" and "you are unleavened."  

Notice in Gal 5:9 he says the same thing basically...."A little leaven leavens the whole lump." He's not talking anything to do with feasts there when he mentions this. 

I think AD this is just going back to where you and I disagree on the keeping of the law.  It always seems as tho we get stuck on these parts.  If you're trying to tell me they kept the feasts I'd have no problem with that.  I can see in scripture where Paul would go up to the feasts and use that time to preach Christ at them.  Quite often, remember, he was accused of transgressing the Law of Moses as was Christ.   

Paul addresses those trying to keep the law by saying....."you observe days and months and times and years and I am afraid of you lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain."  We can't be married to the law and Grace at the same time.  We cannot serve both.  He says this over and over all thru Galatians and Romans.

 

 

paul also said in galtions 3:10 that those who are outside of the torah are under a curse for cursed are those who do not follow the words of the torah,same words wrote in deuteronomy.

if i was you i would start to question my pastors roman teachings over the teachings of the great nazerene,for the things of rome will not save only the covenant to israel will save,and that covenant is ratified by the living torah.

truth,light and the way=torah,the living torah that israel and judah rejected.

many in that day will be cast out due to living non torah lives,for inquity is being under the curse of going against the word of the almighty of israel.

mw

It doesn't say it any clearer than "Therefore keep the feast" which one can get from transliteration from Greek to English.

But you accuse me of taking things out of context.



and what does this have to do with 1 Cor 5? sounds like biblical pandering.

But then again I'm the one that takes things out of context.



You think they kept the feasts but the feasts time doesn't matter but yet G-D set it as an appointed time but that wasn't the point? Can you please stop running around in circles?



Yes and that pertains to Passover that they were about to keep. Which you admitted to.



It isn't an agree or disagree issue. You accused me of taking this scripture reference out of context. I took you up on the who, what, when, why and asked you to reprove me. You didn't correct me you gave a wishy washy answer to try and induce doubt. It is not I that is relying upon implications that aren't in the local scope of the text.



It's not me who is stuck.



but yet you seem that you do.



and your point being? You stated earlier that it didn't matter when the feasts were to be kept. Now you contradict yourself.



And this has WHAT to do with the context of 1 Cor 5?

Please show me where I have taken 1 Cor 5 out of context?

I have explained this all but you can't accept it AD.  I wish I had a better way to discuss this with you.  It's hard on this forum to do so. 

We are NOT under the Law.  1 Cor 5 has NOTHING to do with the feast.  It has to do with sin and immorality in the church.  Not the feast.  You're trying to make it a point but it's not there.

The Feasts were part of the Old Law.  Christ instituted a New Covenant AFTER the Last Passover in the Upper Room. This is what he told them to celebrate.  He never mentioned a lamb did he?  No.  Because he was the lamb.  He took the lamb out of the equasion.  Nowhere does it say the church is to participate in the OT Feasts.  These Feasts were NEVER given to the church.....only to the Hebrews.

Paul said:What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; ³¹but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. ³²Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. ³³As it is written: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,  Rom 9:30-33

For Christ is the END of the law for righteousness to every one who believes.  10:4

Paul said two important things. 

1.  The Gentiles through faith had attained righteousness without ever seeking it. They were NOT part of the Law. 

2.  Israel THROUGH THE LAW, had NOT attained righteousness even AFTER seeking it.  They looked for a bold lion, but God sent them a bleeding lamb.  They wanted a throne but were offered a cross.

We are NOT responsble to Moses or the law itself.  We are now responsible to Jesus.  He intensified the law.  Only He fulfilled the righteousness of the Law.  We can never do that. 

The Feasts speak of Him.  He fulfilled the first four feasts. 

For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ  John 1:17

We CANNOT be bound to both.  Romans 7 is very clear if you want to go there. 

Think about it.  Why do you think the Jews wanted Paul arrested all the time?  Same with Christ?  Both seemed to the Jewish leaders to be upsetting the Mosaic Law applecart.  To them they both were teaching against the Law and were charged with treason. 

Why did Paul confront Peter so strongly about all this?  Can you not see the ever present Judaizers were pressuring Peter into believing exactly what you are expousing here AD?  Paul soundly rebukes Peter for denying five major doctrines and one of them was freedom from the law. 

It seems as tho you are still under bondage.  There is a definite contrast between legalism and liberty.  I can't show you different unless you're willing to reasonably reason the scriptures with me. 

 

 

 

 

 

ok AD another thought.

Two human parents are required for a human birth right?  Nothing else is needed for him to be a human.  He doesn't pick up legs, ears and arms after birth as he grows right to be more human?

It's the same with the spiritual birth.  Two things are needed.  The spirit of God and the Word of God.  Nothing else is needed to receive our new nature.

In both we are as human or as spiritual as we are going to be.  Now we can grow and mature but there is nothing we can do to add our birth either physical or spiritual. 

Paul asks in Gal 3 "how did you receive your new nature in the first place?"

"This only would I learn of you, received you the Spirit by the words of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"  3:2

Can you add to your new nature?  Paul says:

"Are you so foolish?  Having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh?" 

There was alot of mixing legalism with God's pure grace, by the Judaizers but Paul kept preaching God's grace to the Gentiles.  Every letter starts out with Grace and Peace.  Only when we have the Grace of God can we have true Peace.  Peace always follows Grace. 

 

 

You have not shown me to be taking anything out of context. You were at best able to show possible doubt as to WHEN it was written. With that you wouldn't rule out that I might be right.

I for the most part kept to the chapter dissecting it and adding a verse from Exodus to expand on the idea of removing leaven in the house.

Discuss with me how I am out of context? Running around saying that the feast this the feast that neither proves nor disproves the context of the subject matter. It sounds more like biblical pandering. Stick the subject matter and we can discuss reasonably.

I do feel I have been more than reasonable as I am TRYING to stick to the subject matter of 1 Cor 5.

It is not me that wants to run to Romans, Galations, etc. I'm still trying to discuss 1 Cor 5.



And your explanation of 'Therefore keep the feast' is?

Please indulge me on how am I being unreasonable.

I have but you won't accept it AD.  It was ONLY after that I went to Romans and Galatians because if, in doubt about a teaching sometimes it's very helpful to go to other clearer scripture.   But ok, I'll stay with 1 Cor 5:8 as you wish. 

So I decided to go check out the commentaries on this.  I have about 12 Commentaries on my bookshelves from different generations.  NOT one of them says this has anything to do with going to "the feast."  I went back as far as the 1500's with Calvin.  He said this about 5:8 alone.

"Now in the solemnity of this sacred feast we must abstain from leaven, as God commanded the fathers to abstain.  But from what leaven?  As the outward passover was to them a figure of the true passover, so its appendages were figures of the reality which we at this day possess.  If, therefore, we would wish to feed on Christ's flesh and blood, let us bring to this feast sincerity and truth.  Let these be our loaves of unleavened bread.  Away with all malice and wickedness for it is unlawful to mix up leaven with the passover."

Nowhere in the OT when does it speak of the unleavened bread this way.  They baked off real unleavened bread.  It was the physical picture of the spiritual similar to the teachings of Christ. 

Matthew Henry who wrote in the 17oo's said:

" The Jews, after they had killed the passover, kept the feast of unleavened bread.  So must we; not for seven days only, but all our days.He must purge out the old leaven and keep the feast of unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. "

This is in line with what Paul was saying in 1 Cor 5:8

I picked these two because they were very old, written well before we got so many other ideas that have been brought along with the modern churches today. 

When I say you're taking out of context it's only when you lift that part of that verse 8 with no thought of the main passage.   Do you get this?  So when you  just pull out "let us keep the feast."  but then don't take into account the part that continues with "not with old leaven, neither with the  leaven of malice and wickedness but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." 

I mean really AD....where in the OT does it refer to the festival of Unleavened Bread like this?  Is there no room here for you that Paul is talking about what the whole Unleavened Bread really stood for in the first place? 

Christ was not only our Passover he was also our Unleavened Bread.  He was the Bread of Life that had no leaven attached to him. 

 

 

 

talk about round and round,people you can't have the pagan thing and say because some preacher now says it holy that its now a christian holiday,you have to take every ounce of scripture back to messiah and the tanak.

quit the excuses,please....

Quit the pride and arrogance, please.....

if you have something to add to this discussion I'd love to hear it.  But if you're just here to attack with no substance take it elswhere please. 

AD.....ok did some meditating on 5:7-8.....let's look at it carefully.

7Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump just as you are in fact unleavened.  For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Notice the leaven.  It's not the physical leaven spoken of in the OT is it?   Just as unleavened bread symbolized being freed from Egypt by the Passover so the church is to be unleavened since it has been separated from the dominion of sin and death by the perfect Passover Lamb.  This Passover is Christ, not the reference of the OT Passover. That's the old life. So here it's a particular Passover.  The Last One.  Instituted at that last Passover was The New Covenant. 

So in this context the church is to remove everything sinful in order to be separate from the old life including in this case the influence of sinful church members.

Notice in v8 the word "therefore."  The question is always what is it there for?  It's referring to the previous passage of Christ being our Passover Lamb. 

In contrast to the OT Passover feast celebrated annually believers constantly celebrate the "feast" of the new Passover-Jesus.  As the Jews who celebrate Passover to do so with unleavened bread so believers celebrate their continual Passover with their unleavened lives.

As Henry said we must keep the feast not for seven days only but all our days.  The whole life of a Christian must be a feast of unleavened bread.  The whole reason this discourse was enforced was that Christ our passover is sacrificed for us.