Free Speech Only For Some?
Published on February 17, 2008 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Entertainment
I just saw an interesting trailer to an upcoming movie. At the end it carries an interesting warning to anyone who dares to watch this. The movie is called "Expelled. " Have you heard of it? It's coming out this Spring and I plan on going to see it. Take a peek and let me know what you think. Here it is.

Link


Comments (Page 2)
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on Feb 18, 2008
Atheistic Humanistic Materialist Religion


Umm, isn't that an oxymoron? Atheism and Religion are polar opposites.

I honestly don't see how evolution could be considered a belief system. I don't worship the mighty Darwin, I don't pray to natural selection...there's no religion to it. None.

It is a way to explain the world around us...much like the theory of gravity and atomic theory. An explanation, not a way to run your life. It doesn't even not meet the standard requirements to be considered a religion...i.e. A way to connect with a sacred power.

~Zoo



on Feb 18, 2008
Because of the wording in scripture. It's very clear that a day meant a 24 hour period. The word was olam and used as it was in the Hebrew it always meant 24 hours. Also even the most liberal scholars including a liberal translation of the bible will honestly acknowledge at least the writer of Genesis (Moses) believed it was a 24 hr period of time.


I know you'll have a wonderful comeback for this, and no, I can't cite the verse, but I swear that somewhere in the Bible it says something like, "a day for God is 1000 years for man."

So...it time is all relative for God...we can believe that maybe, just maybe, the "1000 years" thing could just mean a really long time. I mean, culturally, 1000 back then was the equivalent of infinity to us...so, I'm thinking evolution is still not completely out of the question.
on Feb 18, 2008
so, I'm thinking evolution is still not completely out of the question.


Well, God + Evolution = Life as we know it makes a lot more sense than God + Magic = Life as we know it.

I mean...accepting the *poof* concept of creationism...is a little hard for me.

~Zoo
on Feb 18, 2008
"and I don't do this. I don't bash you, even if done in a sorta apologetic way. This happens all the time here. Instead of going after the argument fully, stabs are taking at my character. I don't see the need to do this. It's not productive and shows you have lost the argument. It's also a double sided argument (once again). I could say the same thing. I could say you are not using the part of the brain where God is suppose to fit, instead filling it with all sorts of fairy tales the evolutionists tell you."

I’m sorry; it’s very frustrating to ague with someone who continues to ignore anything contrary to what they believe without any critical analysis or even acknowledgment of the facts presented. You persist in saying that evolution attempts to explain how life began and that it says that we evolved from apes and that there is this heated debate over the validity of evolution among scientist, and a whole host of creationist arguments when all of these have been proven false over and over again to you. Why don’t you be honest and admit that there is no evidence that would lead you to accept anything outside of what scripture tells you so we can just talk about religion.
on Feb 18, 2008
and I don't do this. I don't bash you, even if done in a sorta apologetic way.


That's reserved for me and the improper way I use my brain, I suppose?
on Feb 18, 2008
Scientists are having a hard time fitting the theory of evolution in without some sort of designer.


Who told you that? Real scientists don't try to "fit things in," KFC.

Everything has a designer behind it. Everything.


Cool. Who or what is God's designer?
on Feb 18, 2008

So, when you tell Ock to use his brain you are not taking a stab at his character?
That's reserved for me and the improper way I use my brain, I suppose?

oh' com'on.  Do you guys just like to fight or something?  Also Ock you know the stuff you've slung my way. I don't have to go back and start taking it out and listing it all here now do I?  What I did say was tongue in cheek turning your own words around and giving it back at ya.  I even included a smily face to let you know it was a joke.  After what you've given me I think you're awfully sensitive....geesh. 

What I said is maybe he is in the wrong profession if he has to keep quiet about his beliefs, or should I say unsubstantiated "facts", that are in opposition to the scientific community he claims to be part of. If he has to "hide" who he truly is he's living a lie.

He's not hiding.  He's just not being outspoken about his faith when he doesn't have to be.  His lab partners know his faith and they question him all the time. He lives his faith and they have noticed he's not like some of the others.  They are curious and interested in what he has to say but to the community he's in they don't know him.  Until he's published and credible he said he's not worth anything and it would be suicide to talk about such things.  Pretty sad isn't it?  That free speech is so touted but in this profession it's not so much. 

Why don’t you be honest and admit that there is no evidence that would lead you to accept anything outside of what scripture tells you so we can just talk about religion.

I'm as honest as I know how to be Stubby.  What evidence?  What facts?  Evolution is not a fact.  It's a theory that is still be debating all over the planet.  I'm a Christian who does think Stubby contrary to popular opinion around here.  Where's Lula when I need her?  Gah! 

You persist in saying that evolution attempts to explain how life began and that it says that we evolved from apes and that there is this heated debate over the validity of evolution among scientist, and a whole host of creationist arguments when all of these have been proven false over and over again to you

Obviously it's not proven over and over because there are Scientists on both sides of the fence all with Ph.D's and years of research behind them.  And if it's as you say why is there a movie coming out about all this? 

I’m sorry; it’s very frustrating to ague with someone who continues to ignore anything contrary to what they believe without any critical analysis or even acknowledgment of the facts presented.

ok, it can be frustrating....granted.  I'm not ignoring a thing.  You take the scientific evidence and have interpreted it with your world view and so have I.  Why do you assume you have it right and I do not?  We both have experts on both sides here.  The Evolution stuff keeps changing over the years with new findings.  The scripture hasn't changed in thousands of years. 

When they were arguing over the earth being flat or round  there it was all the time in scripture as being round.

 

on Feb 18, 2008
And if it's as you say why is there a movie coming out about all this?


Because people will make a movie about anything, especially if it's a controversy because controversy=money.

When they were arguing over the earth being flat or round there it was all the time in scripture as being round.


Actually there's a lot of talk of edges and corners, not typically found on your average sphere.

The Evolution stuff keeps changing over the years with new findings. The scripture hasn't changed in thousands of years.


That is the nature of science...which is why creationism is not a science...it never changes.

~Zoo
on Feb 19, 2008
And if it's as you say why is there a movie coming out about all this?


Hon, there's movies about everything. In fact, there was a much bigger, much more popular documentary I seem to remember recently about global warming, or another MUCH bigger and with lots more support about how the health care system in the US is broken . . .

Do you agree with both of those? Are they both unequivocally right?

Didn't think so.

So maybe there's quite a bit of hyperbole in our friend Ben Stein's movie too. Especially since it looks like he can't get any backing from a real studio, since his preview is done using some unknown flash provider on an unlinked page.

I'm not saying that he might not make some valid points in his film, I'm just saying that if your criteria is the fact that "there (is) a movie coming out" it isn't the most solid criteria in the world.

There was a movie, documentary-style, about a monster attacking NY. Still standing, far as I know. (Granted, I'm on the other side of the world, but I think that would even make news over in the old country . . . )
on Feb 19, 2008

oh' com'on.  Do you guys just like to fight or something?  Also Ock you know the stuff you've slung my way.

You've misunderstood my intent, KFC.  An insult from you is hardly worth noticing.  What IS worth noticing is when you're hypocritical because you stand on a self erected pedestal of self-righteousness.  You said you don't bash, I'm simply pointing out "Yes, you do" and providing evidence.

And why point it out?  Because when a person's actions don't mesh with their words, it is an indication of their overall credibility.

I'm a Christian who does think Stubby contrary to popular opinion around here.  Where's Lula when I need her?

Why do I see the last sentence as countering the first?

The Evolution stuff keeps changing over the years with new findings.

  1. Science investigates difficult questions about unknown fields, and scientists are human, so it is inevitable that scientific findings will not be perfect. However, science works by investigating more and more, which means results get checked and rechecked with further findings. The reason some findings change is because they get corrected. This process of correction helps make science one of the most successful areas of human endeavor. The people who cannot be trusted are those who are always right.

  2. As more evidence accumulates, scientific findings become more and more certain. Theories that have withstood several decades of study may undergo more refinement of details, but it is almost inconceivable that they would be overturned completely.

 

What evidence?  What facts?  Evolution is not a fact.  It's a theory that is still be debating all over the planet.

  1. The word theory, in the context of science, does not imply uncertainty. It means "a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena" (Barnhart 1948). In the case of the theory of evolution, the following are some of the phenomena involved. All are facts:
    • Life appeared on earth more than two billion years ago;
    • Life forms have changed and diversified over life's history;
    • Species are related via common descent from one or a few common ancestors;
    • Natural selection is a significant factor affecting how species change.
    Many other facts are explained by the theory of evolution as well.

  2. The theory of evolution has proved itself in practice. It has useful applications in epidemiology, pest control, drug discovery, and other areas (Bull and Wichman 2001; Eisen and Wu 2002; Searls 2003).

  3. Besides the theory, there is the fact of evolution, the observation that life has changed greatly over time. The fact of evolution was recognized even before Darwin's theory. The theory of evolution explains the fact.

  4. If "only a theory" were a real objection, creationists would also be issuing disclaimers complaining about the theory of gravity, atomic theory, the germ theory of disease, and the theory of limits (on which calculus is based). The theory of evolution is no less valid than any of these. Even the theory of gravity still receives serious challenges (Milgrom 2002). Yet the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is still a fact.

  5. Creationism is neither theory nor fact; it is, at best, only an opinion. Since it explains nothing, it is scientifically useless.

References:

  1. Barnhart, Clarence L., ed. 1948. The American College Dictionary, New York: Random House.
  2. Bull, J. J. and H. A. Wichman. 2001. Applied evolution. Annual Review of Ecology and Systematics 32: 183-217.
  3. Eisen, J. A. and M. Wu. 2002. Phylogenetic analysis and gene functional predictions: Phylogenomics in action. Theoretical Population Biology 61: 481-487.
  4. Milgrom, Mordehai. 2002. Does dark matter really exist? Scientific American 287(2) (Aug.): 42-52.
  5. Searls, D. 2003. Pharmacophylogenomics: Genes, evolution and drug targets. Nature Reviews Drug Discovery 2: 613-623. http://www.nature.com/nature/view/030731.html
Why do you assume you have it right and I do not?  We both have experts on both sides here.

  1. The criticisms of the general claim that many scientists reject evolution apply also to this list of scientists.
    • Claims of skepticism are worthless without reliable evidence as a basis for the skepticism. Such evidence is lacking. Claims for such evidence by the Discovery Institute (DI) have been repeatedly examined and dismissed by those who understand evolutionary biology.
    • Compared with all the scientists who accept evolution, 400 scientists is a minuscule amount. The National Center for Science Education has compiled, as a parody of lists such as that from the Discovery Institute, a list of more than 500 scientists all named Steve, or with variants of that name, who support evolution (NCSE 2003). There are only five Steves on the DI's list of 400.
    • The DI's list is exaggerated as an anti-evolution document (see below).

  2. The statement which the signatories agreed to is not anti-evolution. It says,
    We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged. (Discovery Institute 2004)
    Since scientists are trained to examine evidence and to be skeptical of everything, even ardent evolutionists could sign such a statement. Indeed, it is well known that random mutation and natural selection are not the only mechanisms contributing to the complexity of life; other mechanisms such as genetic drift and symbiosis are important, too. The statement signed by the scientists of "Project Steve" is more more specific:
    Evolution is a vital, well-supported, unifying principle of the biological sciences, and the scientific evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the idea that all living things share a common ancestry. Although there are legitimate debates about the patterns and processes of evolution, there is no serious scientific doubt that evolution occurred or that natural selection is a major mechanism in its occurrence. It is scientifically inappropriate and pedagogically irresponsible for creationist pseudoscience, including but not limited to "intelligent design," to be introduced into the science curricula of our nation's public schools. (NCSE 2003)
    Although many of the people on the Discovery Institute's list are anti-evolutionists, it is likely that most of them would disagree with fixity of "kinds" and a young earth (Evans 2001). In another list, the Discovery Institute put out a bibliography of publications that "represent dissenting viewpoints that challenge one or another aspect of neo-Darwinism . . ., discuss problems that evolutionary theory faces, or suggest important new lines of evidence that biology must consider when explaining origins." When the authors of the publications were contacted, none said that their works support "intelligent design" or challenge evolution (Branch 2002). Bob Davidson, one of the signators of the DI's list of 400, says, "the scientific evidence for evolution is overwhelming" and now thinks the Discovery Institute is an affront to both science and religion (Westneat 2005).

  3. Most of the signators to the DI's list (about 80%) are not biologists; some are not even scientists. Generally speaking, mathematicians, electrical engineers, philosophers, and so forth are only marginally more qualified to comment on the validity of evolution than the average person on the street.

References:

  1. Branch, Glenn. 2002. Analysis of the Discovery Institute's "Bibliography of Supplementary Resources for Ohio Science Instruction." Reports of the National Center for Science Education 22(4): 12-18,23-24. http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/rncse_content/vol22/4583_analysis_of_the_discovery_inst_12_30_1899.asp
  2. Evans, Skip. 2001. Doubting Darwinism through creative license. http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/7306_pr87_11292001__doubting_dar_11_29_2001.asp
  3. NCSE. 2003. Project Steve, http://www.ncseweb.org/article.asp?category=18
  4. Westneat, Danny. 2005. Evolving opinion of one man. Seattle Times, Aug. 24, 2005. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002450329_danny24.html

Some more on creationist "experts"

  1. Of the scientists and engineers in the United States, only about 5% are creationists, according to a 1991 Gallup poll (Robinson 1995, Witham 1997). However, this number includes those working in fields not related to life origins (such as computer scientists, mechanical engineers, etc.). Taking into account only those working in the relevant fields of earth and life sciences, there are about 480,000 scientists, but only about 700 believe in "creation-science" or consider it a valid theory (Robinson 1995). This means that less than 0.15 percent of relevant scientists believe in creationism. And that is just in the United States, which has more creationists than any other industrialized country. In other countries, the number of relevant scientists who accept creationism drops to less than one tenth of 1 percent.

    Additionally, many scientific organizations believe the evidence so strongly that they have issued public statements to that effect (NCSE n.d.). The National Academy of Sciences, one of the most prestigious science organizations, devotes a Web site to the topic (NAS 1999). A panel of seventy-two Nobel Laureates, seventeen state academies of science, and seven other scientific organizations created an amicus curiae brief which they submitted to the Supreme Court (Edwards v. Aguillard 1986). This report clarified what makes science different from religion and why creationism is not science.

  2. One needs to examine not how many scientists and professors believe something, but what their conviction is based upon. Most of those who reject evolution do so because of personal religious conviction, not because of evidence. The evidence supports evolution. And the evidence, not personal authority, is what objective conclusions should be based on.

  3. Often, claims that scientists reject evolution or support creationism are exaggerated or fraudulent. Many scientists doubt some aspects of evolution, especially recent hypotheses about it. All good scientists are skeptical about evolution (and everything else) and open to the possibility, however remote, that serious challenges to it may appear. Creationists frequently seize such expressions of healthy skepticism to imply that evolution is highly questionable. They fail to understand that the fact that evolution has withstood many years of such questioning really means it is about as certain as facts can get.

References:

  1. Edwards v. Aguillard. 1986. U.S. Supreme Court amicus curiae brief of 72 Nobel laureates (and others). (Case 482 U.S. 578, 1987) http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/edwards-v-aguillard/amicus1.html
  2. NAS. 1999. (see above)
  3. NCSE. n.d., Voices for evolution. http://www.ncseweb.org/article.asp?category=2
  4. Robinson, B. A. 1995. Public beliefs about evolution and creation. http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm
  5. Witham, Larry. 1997. Many scientists see God's hand in evolution. Reports of the National Center for Science Education 17(6): 33. http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/rncse_content/vol17/5319_many_scientists_see_god39s__12_30_1899.asp
The above points' source is http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/index.html

I guess someone decided it would be handy to have all Creationist claims in one place.  It's quite well organized.  There are a wealth of facts there refuting any Creationist argument one might come across complete with sources.

From the site itself is this important disclaimer:

This collection is intended primarily as a guidepost and introduction. The explanations are not in depth (with a few exceptions), but most responses include links, references, and sources for more information. These are not just added for show. Readers are strongly encouraged to pursue additional reliable sources. We hope that readers will put in the effort to gain enough understanding of the subject so that they will not just parrot the information here, but will be able to explain it to others.

I am in the process of pursuing these sources myself, but it is very time consuming.  I urge all people, Creationists, Young Earth Creationists, Evolution supporters, and anyone else to do the same.  Vary your research greatly.  The greater you vary your own research into these important topics, the less your margin of error.

Lastly, for any readers who just happen by here, I'd like to restate, for the record, I am not anti-Christian.  I am anti young earth creationism.  That the world was created by a God at all is a worthless debate by itself.  It can neither be proven or disproven.  Young Earth Creationism, on the other hand, is EASILY dismissed by evidence of immense proportions and numerous scientific data from a WIDE variety of fields.
on Feb 19, 2008

That has to be the longest trailer I've ever seen...heh.  Looks good though and I plan to see it.

Maybe when you come up for the birth we can go on a field trip to the creation museum.  It's about an hour away give or take.

Ben Stein is so funny.  I know him best from the movie "Son of the Mask"...he says in that anyone?  anyone?  heh.

 

on Feb 19, 2008

field trip to the creation museum.

Oh no...please not to that repository of ignorance.

~Zoo

on Feb 19, 2008
Ok just so we have this right Ock.  Here's my bashing remark that makes me look like a hypocrite for all to see.  I mean if you're going to call me names I think people deserve to know how I achieved Hypocrite status, right?   So here's my offending remark.  After all the bashing I've been getting from you this is it?  This is what you're in a tizzy about?    After you said you'd happily go to hell you said this with my reply: 
If I was given a brain by some intelligent designer, I am going to go out on a big limb and assume it wasn't to keep my skull from collapsing.

 

then why not use it as it was intended........

also Ock you might want to get an update for all your stuff you printed above.  1991?  Really that's pretty outdated.  Also, the evidence does not point to evolution.  The evidence points to a designer and that's why the ID theory has gotten so much attention the last few years.  We're actually fighting in my state over this right now.  It's in the courts as we speak.

 

on Feb 19, 2008

Oh no...please not to that repository of ignorance. ~Zoo

Have you gone Zoo?

I heard its pretty awesome, they have dinosaurs (bones) and lots of things my kids would love.

on Feb 19, 2008

hmmmmm I just lost what I submitted.  Where'd it go?  I saw it then it disappeared!  Oh well try it again.

Maybe when you come up for the birth we can go on a field trip to the creation museum. It's about an hour away give or take.

I'd love to go.  I really would love to see this museum.  Remember when I first brought this up and nobody had heard of it?  Well now millions have gone to see it.  Anyhow maybe we can take Amanda with us if she's up for it.  Lunch is on me!

Oh no...please not to that repository of ignorance.

hahahahah Zoo, it'll be good for you.  Remember you're the open minded one, right?   Tova and I will do a book report when we get back just in case you can't go.  I'll  take good notes.

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