Mmm...okay. This is what the JST says:

"And Pharoah will harden his heart, as I said unto thee; and thou shalt multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt."

Ex. 7:3

Ex. 7:13
"And Pharoah hardened his heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said."

There you go. Don't bash it, you asked for it...

So it was a prediction? That simplifies things.

~Zoo

Yes Zoo it was a prediction. I've said that many times.

Also Cedarbird what you wrote here is exactly what I have in my bible with the exception of "I will harden his heart". So now we'd have to go to the original Greek and see who has the right translation.

But it was still a prediction to Moses as to what was coming down the road. The fact is Pharoah hardened his heart 10 times before God started doing so.

Even if you're right about God using his powers....doesn't he as Sovereign God have that perogative? Doesn't a father in any household in America have the right to use his parental powers to pull strings if need be to make sure his family is protected?

Absolutely. And humans need parents and/or Gods to learn how to behave because they aren't born with it. Right and wrong are learned, not innate.

Yep, pretty much.

~Zoo

That's the point of the Joseph Smith Translations, it's fixes to the original Bible that's been screwed up by thousands of sectarians putting in their own nonsense.

Frankly, I couldn't care less what the original Greek and Hebrew say. They're still not originals - they're still copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of erroneous transcripts.

So I'll stick to the God-inspired one that Cedarbird posted. Only makes sense, since the Bible all the rest of you schmucks use is a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy . . . etc. adnauseam till the end of the earth.

I'll pass. Thank God he calls prophets to clear up this crappy confusion . . .

And that's absolutely wrong. We have over 5,000 ORIGINAL copies from which all the other copies or translations have come from. So you may want to check into that SC.



So everybody's wrong all thru the centuries but the Mormons? Did you know the JW's have their own special translation as well? How do you know they're not right and we're both wrong?



you mean....prophets that come out of the Mormon faith? Otherwise all the prophets of old can't really be trusted?

original copies of copies of copies. It's not the one that Moses wrote. It's not the one Isaiah wrote. If it's not the one they wrote, then it's not original, is it? How can it be original if there's 5,000 of them? They're copies! To call a copy original is total poppycock.



Not after all the "fun" the sectarians have with their words, not all the time, no. If the prophet was here, live, yes - because it wouldn't be seen through 18,000 different lenses like how we have the Bible today.

You tell us we're wrong all the time. Why can't we think that we're right; do you have more right to your opinion than we do?

Yep. If you think about it, there's no such thing as an 'original' of any book, except for the version that the author takes to the printer. Thus, 'original pressings' are really (and correctly) referred to as 'first editions'.

And guess what? None of those '5.000 ORIGINAL copies' are genuine, real 'first editions'. It's not straight from the mouth of those prophets - it's straight from the 1,457th pen than copied the scroll.

SC,

Tell me, as a historian, where are the tests that you apply to any piece of literature of history to determine if it's accurate or reliable?

Hello Everybody,

This  is my first post on this jazzy new JU format.  It took me about 15 minutes just to figure out how to log in! Bear with me please.

OCK posts: #202

God sent Moses to ask Pharao to let the Jews go, and that means that He meant Pharoa to do so. God would not, therefore, then have deliberately prevented Pharao from doing so. The sense is that God permitted Pharao to harden his own heart. It is but a Jewish mode of speaking. Exodus 8:15 has, "And Pharao seeing that rest was given,  hardened his own heart, and did not hear them, as the Lord had commanded." God permitted it just as He permits men to sin even in our own days, if they are determined to do so.

 

Cedarbird,

The Douay Rheims version has 7:13 as "And Pharao's heart was hardened, and he did not harken to them, as the Lord had commanded." Same with 8:32; likewise 9:7, 35.

Anyway, we see from reading the whole chapter in context that Pharao was himslef the effecient cause of his heart being hardened, and not God.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

KFC POSTS:

You bet!

God has set the rules by which we understand right from wrong. His standards decide right from wrong...they are absolute.

OCK POSTS:

It's true we do learn about right from wrong as we grow...

In every one of us there is an innate sense of right and wrong. It's the inward voice of conscience  which is an innate part of our being.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

SAN CHONINO POsts:

Let's take the Book of Mormon which LDS revere as divinely inspired record detailing a vast civilization and culture of the Nephites and Manamites, who supposedly existed for centuries, built massive cities, farmed the land, produced works of art and fought large scale wars which culminated in their destruction. Where is the historical or archaeological proof to show support of the Book of Mormon? It should be easy to locate  and produce evidence to substantiate such happened.  

On the other hand, the Holy Bible tells of great battles that have been well documented using archaeological methods, and historians have obtained a most accurate picture of ancient times. By unearthing ancient monuments and entire cities, almost every apsect of life mentioned in the Holy Bible has been clarified in one way or another. They've been able to document real historical truth. The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, ancient copies of the Bible books and other literature have substantiated the translations follow the original language closely. Turns out that the linguistic genious of St. Jerome as well all those monks and nuns did a very good job after all.

 

But Joseph Smith relied upon the King James Version which translation was based upon the textus receptus, which was an imperfect edition. Scholars know now contained errors and the problem for Mormons is that these same errors show up in the Book of Mormon. Now, it seems that since SMith was a prophet of God and was translating the book under divine inspiration, he would have known about these errors found in the KJV, but he didn't. The errors went in.

 

 

   

 

SC POSTS:

There certainly is confusion out there. Let's examine the concept of the "fullness of the everlasting Gospel".  Mormons claim to have it in Smith and Brigham Young's writings.  Smith taught that God the Creator and Master of the universe is merely an exalted man!  and that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are actually three separate gods or that Jesus Christ is the brother-spirit of Lucifer.  

What is in accord with Mormon doctrine is plainly at odds with the Holy Bible which teaches unity of the divine Godhead. Christ said, "I and my Father are one."