Gotta give credit to Ock who first asked the question. What if Jesus Christ was never born? What would it be like here and in the rest of the world? Would it make a difference at all? It is a thought provoking question isn't it? What if Jesus had never been born?

That's an easy one.

There were lots and lots of self-proclaimed Messiahs, the gospel writers could just have found another one. Ignoring butterfly issues (changes in history due to minimal differences) the world would be exactly the same, just the real name of "Christ" might not have been "Jesus" (although "Joshua" was a popular name then and there were probably many other contenders for the title of most popular Messiah alive with the same name.

More difficult would be the answer to the question "What if nobody had declared Joshua (or anyone) a Messiah?".

But otherwise, instead of Joshua ben Miriam, perhaps Binyamin ben Sarah might have become the most popular Messiah of the time and people would have focused on good old Binyamin and churches today would celebrate "Benjamin Christ, the son of G-d" and the Catholic Church would be obsessed with the virgin Sarah.

You are right about all the things that wouldn't have happened without that weird version of Judaism of Judaism later called "Christianity", but there were (and occasionally are) many such weird Messianic Jewish cults and it's quite likely that another one would have become the popular one; just as there were (and are) several versions of the Joshua-based one.

I thought 'Jesus Christ' was just a title anyway...?

I thought 'Jesus Christ' was just a title anyway...?

For a Superstar!

 

If Jesus were never born?...well, we'd all be Jewish, probably.

~Zoo

Oh dear, I'm afraid this falls under the category of bearing false witness. Yes, I asked the question, but in a totally different context - it was not the open ended question you here paint it as. I'll leave it to you to straighten this out.

Oh dear, I'm afraid this falls under the category of bearing false witness. Yes, I asked the question, but in a totally different context - it was not the open ended question you here paint it as. I'll leave it to you to straighten this out.

Well Ock I'm not sure why you'd say this falls under the category of false witness. You asked me this:

Supposing, hypothetically, no Christ ever existed, would it not be a good purpose for people to just "be like" Christ as they understand him today? By accounts, the example he set for how to live was fairly elegant and simple enough to be easy to follow

While I thought the question what if Christ never existed was a qood one, I have to admit I was scratching my head over the part that we could still "be like" Christ by following his example even if he never lived. If he never lived Ock, we wouldn't have his example to follow would we?

Before he came on the scene we read during the time of the judges that "everyone did what was right in their own eyes." Jesus came on the scene and said some radical things. He was telling them they needed to be servants. They needed to love their enemies, they needed to put others ahead of them and turn the other cheek and not worry about getting ahead.

I said nothing about anything being open ended. I thought it was a good thought provoking question. I decided it needed to be answered but it was too long as a reply so I gave the question it's own page.

If Jesus were never born?...well, we'd all be Jewish, probably.

no Zoo. There were Romans and Greeks running around as well. In fact most likely if Christ was not to be born, there wouldn't be any Jews left would be my guess.

Really? One of the most anti-Semetic groups I know have been Christians.

~Zoo

Well Ock I'm not sure why you'd say this falls under the category of false witness.

Because the way this article reads, I somewhere posed the question "What if Christ never existed?" Hopefully you're just manipulative and not ignorant (or maybe I should hope the other way around...not sure) - I'll leave it to others to pass that judgment, but it should be clear from the corrected quote above that this "question" was a hypothesis required to pose the "real" question I was asking. Therefore, by invoking my name alongside said question, you misrepresented me. That's bearing false witness from my perspective. You said I asked that question. Do you see in the quote me asking that question? Nope. You get it now?

While I thought the question what if Christ never existed was a good one, I have to admit I was scratching my head over the part that we could still "be like" Christ by following his example even if he never lived.

I never said "be like by following his example."

Don't feel too bad about it. I'll explain it.

Let's say that one of the defining qualities of Christ is that he never murdered anybody and never would based on some moral principle of his. Would you say that if Christ had not existed we'd all be murderers because we'd have no example of not murdering to follow? If so, I say that is not true. Buddha (one example) was morally and ethically like Christ without ever having the pleasure of his acquaintance. Somehow he figured out "right acting, right thinking," etc...all by himself. Buddha was just a human. So by transitive properties where if a = b and b = c then a = c we can determine that if Buddha could be like Christ and Buddha was just a human that never heard of Christ, then all humans that have never heard of Christ can also be like Christ without having heard of him.

Christians have always been pioneers in promoting literacy and universal education.

I'm happy to read of what I admittedly infer as a respect for people being educated. In the context of the quote above where you are discussing universities, I am prompted to ask "What university is your degree from, and what is it in?" Just curious.

Really? One of the most anti-Semetic groups I know have been Christians.

actually that's not correct Zoo. The Christians are the biggest supporters of Israel and one of the reasons our country is the only country supporting Israel today. . The Christians recognize how important Israel is in the grand scheme of things and that they are indeed God's chosen Nation and that has not changed. . Anti-Semetism is running rampant and will continue to increase, but it will not be the Christians doing this. In fact, Europe is becoming increasingly anti-semetic and true Christianity is not doing well there.

Ock, I will take your name out of my original blog if it makes you feel better.

Ock, I will take your name out of my original blog if it makes you feel better.

My name in your blog is inconsequential to the matter here - it's the association you made that I wasn't happy with. The way you fixed it is fine. Apology accepted, I guess.

And no answer regarding your university and degree? I'm just assuming you have one. Bad assumption or no?

My name in your blog is inconsequential to the matter here - it's the association you made that I wasn't happy with. I really don't care how you fix it, just fix it.

I did and I'm wondering why all the anomisity here? There certainly isn't on my part Ock. Have I done something to offend you? I have taken your name off. I don't understand the big deal here. Much of what you said in your replies here to me is semantics.

And no answer regarding your university and degree? I'm just assuming you have one. Bad assumption or no?

I'm not sure what does that have to do with the subject matter? Why do you need to know? I don't ask personal questions nor do I answer them especially to those who seem to be very contrary to anything I say.

You asked me a very specific question on my other blog wishing I get back to you on the deity of Christ. When I answered your question honestly you made no comment on it chosing rather to ignore my answer. Instead of what could be a decent conversation I'm getting contentious comments from you on what I would consider to be trivial matters.

Be honest. What's really the matter here Ock?

KFC is good at misquoting things, ask him about his evolution of the eye quote by Darwin.

Then when you point it out, he side steps the issue.

Key word: today.

Jews had some rough times back in ol' Europe with Christians. You know, being blamed for killing Jesus and stuff.

~Zoo

you've got me mixed up with Lula. So who exactly is misquoting here?

KFC is a her....not a him.

You need to get your facts straight

This is still going on today. In fact, my great uncle, a Jewish atheist was mocked and persecuted in New York growing up for the same reasons you quoted.

I wouldn't call them Christians tho. They said they were Christians and they went to church but if they were Christ like, they wouldn't have been doing this now would they? They were not following the way of their leader. They also would realize that Christ was a Jew to begin with.

My Catholic great grandmother thought it was blasphemy to call Jesus a Jew. They had no idea what they were doing.

Those are the kinds of people I don't get along with in the slightest...but there's a lot of them, always has been.

~Zoo