What If Jesus Was Never Born?

Thank God He Was

Published on January 29, 2008 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Religion

What if Jesus Christ was never born? What would it be like here and in the rest of the world? Would it make a difference at all? It is a thought provoking question isn't it? What if Jesus had never been born?

If Jesus was never born, what a difference it would make in politics. Our representative form of democracy rests on explicitly Christian principles of church and state. So do our principles of free speech and religious tolerance. In fact, the very founding of this nation was motivated by the goal to establish a Christ-centered community. If Jesus was never born, there wouldn’t be a United States of America, at least as we know it today.

If Jesus was never born, what a difference it would make in education. The world’s oldest universities were all founded on Christian principles, so that students could grow in the knowledge of Jesus Christ. The same is true of nearly every one of the first one hundred colleges and universities in America. Eventually people would have developed institutions of higher education, but there would be no Oxford, no Harvard, no Yale, and no Princeton. Furthermore, Christians have always been pioneers in promoting literacy and universal education. Even America’s public school system is part of the legacy of Puritan education. To this day, linguists are working all over the world, in the name of Jesus, to put native languages in written form and teach people to read the Bible.

If Jesus was never born, what a difference it would make in literature, music, and the arts. There would be no Messiah for Handel to write into his famous oratorio—no Christmas music at all. There would be no Pieta by Michelangelo, and no Last Supper by Leonardo. There would be no cathedrals in Europe, no Hagia Sophia or Notre Dame. There would be no Gospels and no New Testament, and therefore no story of the prodigal son, no parable of the good Samaritan, and no Sermon on the Mount. There would be no Divine Comedy by Dante, and no Paradise Lost by Milton.

If Jesus was never born, what a difference it would make in science and medicine. It was the Christian worldview—with its insistence on the rational order of the universe and man’s dominion over creation—that gave rise to modern science. Followers of Jesus Christ were also pioneers in the art of medicine. The first hospitals were established by Christians who believed they had a God-given responsibility to heal the sick.

If Jesus was never born, what a difference it would make in charity and the protection of life. It was the followers of Christ who first introduced the Roman world to disinterested benevolence, to helping someone who couldn’t help you in return. Pagans were amazed to see that Christians not only took care of their own needy people, but also provided for other people’s poor. It was also the followers of Christ who first abandoned the nearly universal practice of infanticide. The birth of Christ taught them to protect the lives of their own children, and to rescue foundlings and orphans.

Humanly speaking, none of this would have happened if Jesus was never born. What I have said so far is only just the beginning, of course, and it is also true that many wrong things have been done in the name of Christ—that is a topic for another occasion. But simply in terms of secular history, the life of Jesus Christ has had a far greater and more positive influence on the world than anyone else in history.

But to bring what I have said closer to home, if Jesus was never born, what a difference it would make to your own destiny. You would have no atonement for your sin, no resurrection from the dead, no hope of eternal life, and no Savior to call a friend.

What if Jesus was never born? But Jesus was born. As the angel said to the Christmas shepherds: “Unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord” (Luke 2:12). And the rest, as they say, is history.

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Comments (Page 12)

166

Zoologist03

on Feb 11, 2008

of the things he said to have his theory fully realized or proven is that transitional fossils would have to be found. They have not.

Yes, they have. Many in fact. I thought I linked to them at one point in one of these conversations. Well, I'll do so again. WWW Link While wikipedia isn't the greatest, it gets the point across. If you don't believe it, there are plenty other websites out there with loads of info on transition fossils.

Oh...found a good one. Meet our friend the Tiktaalik roseae: WWW Link

~Zoo

167

lulapilgrim

on Feb 11, 2008

Lula posts # 109 to OCK,

It's just that your #73 reply, that "truth is relative", "survival of the fittest", etc., examples aren't really a persuasive rebuttal to what I've given as demonstratable physical evidence of the existence of God, that we can know by human reason, namely the law of causality and the argument of the inner voice of conscience.

Lula posts:

Ever hear of the law of causality? It tells us that every effect must be due to a power or agent that caused it. Nothing in the world came into existence of itself...including the phenomena of the moral law dictated to us by inner voice of our conscience, of which I'm sure you agree we all have.

Motion comes from a mover; design from a designer, life from life and the moral law dictated to us by our voice of conscience from a Lawmaker or Lawgiver. The proof of causality is simple and irrefutable. A watch takes a watch maker, the Cosmos manifests design that supposes a Designer of infinite intelligence and power, whom we call Almighty God.

Lula asks AsaxyGirl:

So, what's your rational argument as to where our interior law known as conscience comes from? If not from God, what's the source....From where/ from what/ from whom does our conscience come?

ASAXYGIRL POSTS: # 117

Based upon what I have studied in biology, psychology and sociology, survival of the species. The interior law, as you call it, is borne out of the increased likelihood that the species will survive if certain "good interior law" is adopted as opposed to bad. This "interior law" is also largely learned behavior. If a species does not act in accordance with the majority of its community then there are repercussions that can be a "mild slap" to ostracism to death. This is not only with humans but also with mammals, reptiles, insects, etc. Zoo, correct me if I am wrong. I'm not a behavioral biologist or zoologist but I am a closet ecologist.

I wasn't able to respond sooner due to computer problems.

Asaxygirl,

You do realize, don't you, that by claiming the source of our inner voice of conscience evolved by natural selection, specifically what Darwin called "survival of the fittest", you've placed your faith in the gospel according to Darwin?

"Survival of the fittest" is meaningless. The terms, natural selection and survival of the fittest are actually circular reasoning. They are tautologies so said T.H. Morgan, an AMerican geneticist. It goes something like this: If something cannot succeed, it will not succeed...or those things which have succeeded were able to succeed. The survivors are the fittest and the fittest survive. These survivers survive, they don't evolve into something better.

The idea that mankind descended from hairy primitive apes which themselves had evolved from mud millions of years earlier is plain bunk...the Darwinist establishment and those scientists who diligiently work in support of this has simply not made its case to date. Sorry about that.

Nevertheless, I'll keep my mind open to your point of view and if you can show factual evidence that our conscience is a product of Darwinism evolution, then I'm willing to change my mind.

168

lulapilgrim

on Feb 12, 2008

From Reply #108

Sodaiho posts: #63

There is no factual evidence outside of the statements in the Christian scripture of Jesus miricles, his teaching, or much of anything else related to Christianity.

LULA POSTS: When you question the authenticity of the miracles attributed to Christ, you question the New testament, the patristic writings of the early Christian centuries, which are surely as authentic as are the histories of ancient Greece and Rome.

I remember reading one of your posts in which you said you greatly admired Christ's Sermon on the Mount. To do so, you take admit that Christ is Divine and competant to perform miracles ....

SODAIHO POSTS:
I do admire that sermon, as I admire many sutras of the Buddha and writings of the rabbis. I do not admit Jesus was any more or less divine than any man or woman.

LULA POSTS:
In His sermon, CHrist establishes a complete expression of Christian doctrine by which His followers are guided. We learn that the important and chief work of life in the service of God, that fancies that the world holds as most worthwhile are of no consequence, and even harmful to those who place the God first plan in their life.

There are 2 accounts--St.Luke and St. Matthew. From them we learn that Christ's teachings are a sharp departure from the Mosaic tradition, in fact advanced far beyond them in human relations.

Moses had appealed to people hard of heart by promising material blessings as a reward of right living. So it was that the Jews had always considered wealth representative of God's blessings, sickness and misfortune as proof of His wrath..so too their harshness towards the sick and unfortunate, their misunderstanding of Messianic prophecies. But our Lord dispelled these with the Beatitudes. He talked to the poor, to the less fortunate who knew the burden of oppression. How great was their rejoicing when Christ proclaimed the foundationstones of His kingdom...Blessed are this...Blessed are that...Christ didn't come to destroy the law, but to elevate it to Christian perfection...something Anne Coulter knew well as we have already discussed.

Yes, Christ wasn't about a political or military revolution, He proclaimed a spiritual revolution.

Moses had said thou shalt not commit adultery, divorce is to be tolerated..but Christ said evil thoughts and impure glances are sinful, marriage is to be restored to its primitive sanctity, one man and one woman for life. The Old Law had said they were to exact an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, the New Law demands that Christians suffer violence for their conviction. The Talmud which you have said that you frequently read, teaches the pagan is not our neighbor, have no pity on the Gentiles. The Christian must love our enemies, do good to those who hate us, and pray for those who maltreat and slander us.

Oh, yes, the Savior changed the whole view of life...He raised our minds and hearts to heavenly things. He assured us of God's love no matter how difficult the path. Oh yes, a new teaching, a new program, apart from the materialistic background, the synagague to His Church, a visible human organism, yet spiritual in nature.

There is no doubt as to His teaching...it has come down to us through the ages...what is old, is new every time it is taught.
Do you know what happened when He came down from the mountain where the Sermon was given to Capharnaum? One of the elders of the synagague came to seek His help on behalf of a Roman centurian whose servant was close to death. Slaves were regarded as cattle then. Christ acceded to their request and before He got to the centurian's house, and knowing that a Jew would be rendered unclean to enter into a Gentile's house, he sent friends to tell Christ that he was not worthy that CHrist should enter under his roof, but only say the word and my servant shall be healed. Our Lord praised his faith in the presence of all and said that at that hour the servant was healed. I believe that CHrist performed the miracle of healing the servant.

SODAIHO POSTS now JEWBU # 125

Lula, as regards your detailed reply to my post, you present a lot of tainted information, spun either by you or your sources to make a case for Christianity and against Judaism. Why?

Saxygirl posts #140

I haven't seen your response to Sodaiho in this thread regarding the question he asked.

Lula, as regards your detailed reply to my post, you present a lot of tainted information, spun either by you or your sources to make a case for Christianity and against Judaism. Why?

I'd like to see who/what your references are that are not Christian biased...in other words verification by an impartial third party. I do not ask this to try and "show" you that you are wrong. I am genuinely curious. I do not follow your faith but that does not mean I am above changing my mind when presented with unbiased data.

JEWBU and SAXYGIRL,

First, Jewbu, please note for your convenience, I posted my initial comment that is in question. Please explain what is "tainted information". Second, my comments were not meant against Judaism per se, as they were defending the differences between the Mosiac Laws and those of Christ's Sermon on the Mount teachings which you have admitted you admire.

Interestingly enough, my response to your question Jewbu goes rather well with my discussion with Saxygirl concerning from whence comes our conscience, that critical voice of right and wrong within every person that assesses the morality of a situation. We know interiorily when we are doing wrong; an inward voice rebukes our conduct, dictating to us a law we did not make. This law of right and wrong dictated by this voice of conscience supposes a Lawgiver who has written His law in the inner depth of our heart.

There is only one mention of the word "conscience" in the Old Testament Wisdom 17:11 which is a Book much influenced by Hellenistic ideas; conscience and all the nuances it suggests are more typical of Greek than of a Hebrew mode of thought.

This is not to say that the Israelites were not unaware of that natural human phenomenon, the experiencing of peace when when has done good or of remorse when one has done evil. And perhaps no where else in world literature is remorse of conscience so superbly described as in the reaction of Adam and Eve to their disobeying God. Gen. 3: 7-11.

In the intertestimonial period and in the rabbinical literature there are some developing theory of conscience. What I was pointing out in the above comments was that the general tenor of Jewish thought was that of an excessive emphasis on the external act. The paramount importance of one's internal motivation was increasingly neglected. As a result, cultic and ethical activity tended to become increasingly formalistic and to be judged solely on the basis of their external conformity with the Law and its traditional interpretation.

While there isn't any specific term for conscience in the Gospels, their spirit is essentially different from that of any of the rabbinical writings. This spirit lays emphasis not on the external action, but on the heart, the interior disposition from which it proceeds. St. Paul offers a systematic teaching, both philosophical and theological on conscience. What the Law is for the Jews, conscience is for the pagans Rom. 2:14-17. Whoever acts against his conscience commits sin v. 23. The Biblical sense on conscience is obviously not the fully developed Christian understanding of the nature and function of conscience, St.Paul exposition of what that conscience is and of how it ought to function in the various problems he called upon to solve is a daithful development of an outline furnished by Christ Himself.

169

lulapilgrim

on Feb 12, 2008

Lula posts:

Moses had appealed to people hard of heart by promising material blessings as a reward of right living.

OCK posts: #112
Silly people with hardened hearts. Oh wait...who was it that hardened them? Exodus 7:3 (Stacked Deck Theory proven WITH the bible)

Here's a little different take on what Exodus 7:3 means...

All those "silly people with heardened hearts" have them becasue they all hardened their own hearts just as happens today. Ex. 7:3 concerns Pharao, Moses and the 10 plagues of Egypt.

V. 3 means that God is not the effecient cause of the Pharao's hardness of heart, but by permitting it, and by withdrawing grace from him in punishment of his own malice, which alone was the proper cause of his being hardened.

God sent the 1st plague only after miracles worked before Pharoa produced no effect. The plagues gradually succeeded each other beginning with the least and when these availed nothing, they became more and more dreadful. Moerover, they didn't follow each other day afte day, but between the several plagues there was an interval of days, sometimes of weeks.

Paharao is a warning example to us of impenitence and of obduracy. God didn't warn him only outwardly, by Moses' words and by the 10 plagues, but also inwardly, by His grace. But Pharao would neither listen to the admonitions of God, nor obey the movements of divine grace, and so by rendering himself unworthy of further graces, he at last became quite hardened. Once or twice he made good resolutions about letting God's people go, but as soon as the pressure of necessity was removed, he did not keep them. God foretold him some 14 days before it was sent, and would in His Mercy have spared Pharao and his people. Pharao despised the divine warning as an empty threat and remained hardened. He is the type of defiant sinner who will not listen to any exhortations, does not carry out good solutions, peseveres in sin, and finally becomes quite hardened.

St. Paul is urgent in his warnings against obduracy: "According to thy hardness and impenitent heart thou treasurest up to thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God." Rom. 2:5. Something to seriously think about.

OCK POSTS #112

The Old Law had said they were to exact an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, the New Law demands...

The eternal law of god changed? I guess the first law was just a theory.

Nah, no theories at least that I know of in Sacred Scripture, OCK.

What I wrote makes perfect sense when one understands that the OLd Law was fulfilled, completed in the New and Eternal Law of Christ.

170

Jythier

on Feb 12, 2008

Now see? That wasn't so hard was it?

And to be perfectly honest, this little 'admission' makes you seem far more human to me, a real person with flaws (not that not having a degree is a flaw, but it's obviously something you felt you were lacking,) regrets (you "sometimes" regret not getting one earlier) as well as dreams and desires, (you are working on one now.)

Thank you for the direct answer, and no, I won't 'use it against' you. How could I? I have no fancy letters behind my name either, haha. And now that you've shared something real with me, I'll reciprocate in kind.

I used to feel intimidated by highly educated people. I've never doubted my own intelligence (or my ability to learn) but I felt 'lesser' than them when participating in certain types of discussions and would often not comment at all out of fear of saying something foolish or just utterly wrong.

As I've gotten older, though, I've encountered many 'educated' idiots and come to realize that those with degrees are just like everyone else in that some are brighter than others and some STILL don't know what they're talking about.

And then I up and married an intellectual, a man who'd spent a good deal of his adult life ensconced in the halls of academia...well read on a wide variety of topics and considered an expert in some.

And ya know what? My beloved egghead, for all his letters and degrees, all of his erudite bloviations on politics and philosophy, for all His work 'bettering His mind' cannot balance a checkbook to save His life, hehehe.

Go for it, KFC. Get that degree, but do it to please yourself, not to 'validate' your opinions. While I disagree with most of them, they're just as valid as anyone else's, degreed or not.

You're smart, LW. You probably have a lot more street smarts and common sense than I ever will. I've learned that the only time a degree really matters is when you're looking for the work to get the experience you need to really know what you're talking about. Have a degree? Who cares. Have 10 years experience? Now that's something.

That being said, taking economics in college actually taught me about economics. So when I hear Brad talk about taxes and how they affect the middle class more than him, I'm able to critically think about it instead of having no knowledge at all the test it against. But you could get the same economic knowledge without a college degree.

The American Institute of Certified Public Accountants requires 150 credit hours in order to certify a CPA. So I have to, pretty much, get my Master's in order to qualify. So I have to have degrees for my career. But if you don't, it's mostly just a bunch of wasted money. Much cheaper to just take the classes you want to and ignore the degree program.

I'm glad you got over the intimidation. You have much to add to most discussions.

171

KFC Kickin For Christ

on Feb 12, 2008

Nice to see you back Lula. Go get'em.....

172

lulapilgrim

on Feb 12, 2008

Nice to see you back Lula.

Thanks KFC.

I've still got computer problems and back at the shop writing this!

173

OckhamsRazor

on Feb 12, 2008

Lula:

All those "silly people with heardened hearts" have them becasue they all hardened their own hearts just as happens today.

Bible:

Exodus 7

3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you.

~New International

Ok, I am missing something. "I will harden Pharoah's heart" is pretty clear. And if it isn't clear what it is, it's clear what it isn't. It isn't "And Pharoah will harden his own heart."

Explanation how you got from God doing it to Pharoah doing it, please.

174

KFC Kickin For Christ

on Feb 12, 2008

ooooohhhhhhh Ock we've been here so many times before. This is one of the favorites of the non-Christians. Did you know that? Goes well with the Matt 7:1 we discussed before.

Go back and read Exodus again and notice how many times Pharaoh hardened his heart FIRST and then it says God hardened his heart. I think there is about 10 times you'll see this going on.

What you are seeing in the beginning here, in the verse you cited, is God's instruction to Moses. He's unfolding what the ultimate end will be because God can look ahead and know how it's all going to pan out. He's giving Moses confidence. If I had a bible here with me I'd point them all out to you but I think you can open it up and figure this one out yourself.

PS......where did you get the above? Did you really open up a bible or did you go to some site that's anti-Christian that points out the bad stuff by taking scripture out of context? Just curious.

175

Zoologist03

on Feb 12, 2008

God can look ahead and know how it's all going to pan out.

Yeah...that's the thing. I'm not sure God really does know how everything will turn out. I mean, at one point He even regrets making humans...I don't think He thought us through as much as He should have.

~Zoo

176

OckhamsRazor

on Feb 13, 2008

PS......where did you get the above? Did you really open up a bible or did you go to some site that's anti-Christian that points out the bad stuff by taking scripture out of context? Just curious.

I read it. I actually remember the phrase from reading long ago. I had to search on biblegateway.com to find out what book and verse it was, though. And I don't really care how many times Pharaoh hardened his own heart. My point was there is evidence in the bible that God used his powers of influence to change the course of events. And he did. Over and over and over again. I have no judgment about that other than it happened (according to the bible. And it did - in black and white)

And, I don't spend any time on any anti anything sites. I have absolutely no desire to disprove Christianity. But if a Christian states that something is a fact when it's an opinion, I'm going to ask for objective (aka scientific) evidence, because TO ME - stating opinion without evidence, as if it is fact, is the same as lying. That's my opinion.

177

OckhamsRazor

on Feb 13, 2008

I mean, at one point He even regrets making humans...I don't think He thought us through as much as He should have.

Heh, well he started over once (flood) and it didn't help any. Probably should have scrubbed the whole project. But as I am pursuing in another thread, he seems to need something from us.

178

Cedarbird

on Feb 13, 2008

Ok, I am missing something. "I will harden Pharoah's heart" is pretty clear. And if it isn't clear what it is, it's clear what it isn't. It isn't "And Pharoah will harden his own heart."

Explanation how you got from God doing it to Pharoah doing it, please.

Heheh, I have the answer. Oh, wait...you won't believe me if I told you, because it's from the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible.

Never mind.

179

KFC Kickin For Christ

on Feb 13, 2008

And I don't really care how many times Pharaoh hardened his own heart. My point was there is evidence in the bible that God used his powers of influence to change the course of events. And he did. Over and over and over again. I have no judgment about that other than it happened (according to the bible. And it did - in black and white)

Well you have to care if you wish to make logical statements Ock. You have to get your facts straight before you shoot your arrows. Right?

Even if you're right about God using his powers....doesn't he as Sovereign God have that perogative? Doesn't a father in any household in America have the right to use his parental powers to pull strings if need be to make sure his family is protected?

I know from reading and studying about this God of scripture that all his motives are clear. He is a righteous God who makes right decisions. You may not want to accept them or honor them, but it doesn't make God less righteous.

Now that I have a bible in front of me I'll give you the real facts. You do what you like with them but at least you'll have them.

Ten times it was said that Pharaoh hardened his OWN heart, 7:13, 14,22, 8:15,19,32; 9:7,34,35; 13:15 and then 10 times that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, 4:21,7:3, 9:12, 10:1,20,27, 11:10, 14:4,8,17. The first two times were predictions to Moses that this would happen. Paul used this as an example of the will of God and of his mercy toward men. Seven times Pharaoh hardened his own heart BEFORE God first hardened it.

Oh, wait...you won't believe me if I told you, because it's from the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible.

well then get into the same scripture and join us.....

180

Zoologist03

on Feb 13, 2008

Oh, wait...you won't believe me if I told you, because it's from the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible.

Hey, spill it. I'll at least consider it even if I don't believe it.

~Zoo

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