To Sleep or Not To Sleep?
Published on September 10, 2007 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Home & Family
So here I am trying to do some catch up work on the computer. I have my household budget on Quick Books and am doing much needed data input. In the background is a screaming 10 month old baby. His mommy, my d-i-l, is not feeling well and my heart goes out to her. I remember those days. She came down with a cold yesterday. I remember taking care of my babies and being so exhausted I couldn't think straight especially when I was ill. So after spending the day chasing the little boy around the house she decided to go to bed early with him. I think maybe that wasn't such a good idea now because it's 10:30 and he's in an on and off crying mode..

She's a great mommy. She's doing a great job with Ethan. She's very attentive and reminds me of me. We both had our first at the same age. We both were very inexperienced with babies. Actually she's a few months younger than I was when I had my first. I was determined to be the best mom the second they put that beautiful newborn into my arms. My son, in contrast to Ethan tho, was a very quiet and submissive baby. He was sleeping well by the end of his first month. I never ever woke up with him in the middle of the night after that.

Ethan's a healthy happy baby until he isn't the center of attention, that is. He's absolutely perfect looking. He's charmed everyone he's come into contact with. One thing I think she's just starting to understand about this beautiful little boy is that he's very strong willed. He's got her wrapped, totally, and I can see she's exhausted. He's a master manipulator and is going to be just like his daddy. I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree afterall.

My son and she are are alone in another state with no family, so they have been at this new parenting thing virtually all by themselves. With Brian working so often, much of this child rearing is on her shoulders.

Her first week here she spent alot of time trying to cajole him to sleep sometimes taking two hours or so to do so. One night he just flat out refused to be cajoled still wide awake at 11 pm. He's in the habit of going down to bed asleep in his mommy's arms since birth. He's very big now and this is getting harder and harder to do. Big mistake we told her. It's time he goes down awake. He may cry (and he did) some but it's time for him to go to bed and for mommy to have some down time. She needs a break. She's exhausted.

The first night he cried for about an hour or so and she was a wreck. Her goal I think has been to avoid any confrontation with crying as much as possible. He lived. He actually woke up the next day seemingly in a good mood. None the worse for wear. The next night he cried again and by the third night or so only cried for 10 minutes. Of course her reaction was total and absolute freedom. It was starting to look up.....until tonight.

The bad thing is I have to work all day tomorrow so she's on her own. I hope she eventually gets some sleep tonight. All is quiet now and it's 11 pm. So maybe. But he's yet to sleep thru the night so he'll probably re-awake about 2 or 3 or so. But just maybe this crying jag tonight will have worn him out enough to make it thru. We'll see.

Maybe she'll let me have him one night, so she can get a whole night of uninterrupted sleep. Just Ethan and Nanny. I can always call in the reinforcement. His name is Papa and Ethan is just crazy about him.







Comments (Page 6)
7 PagesFirst 4 5 6 7 
on Sep 13, 2007
You have a haughty way about you that really gets under my skin.


and TW you have a way about you that I have issues with as well but I refrain from negativity as much as I possibly can. My comment earlier in this blog was as harsh as I've ever been to you. I could sit here and unload on you as well but is that what we want to do here? I don't. Most of the time I ignore the hurtful comments. I do the best I can. Instead I try to see the good in all of you. Obviously we are all coming from diff backgrounds and we're not going to agree on things. But that shouldn't cause us to attack each other.

As for the chip on your shoulder you speak of. I absolutely understand. If I recall I was trying to find common ground with you (as best I could) on this issue. I even said or prefaced my comment at the time with it's not at all like what you're going thru but I had an idea of what it was like because I was alone alot during Jan-April every year, and my kids only saw their dad once a week. Of course it goes without saying what you're going thru is much more difficult than I had it. No question. While I said something along that line, you chose only to hear the part where I was trying to relate to you, not the admission that it was NOT quite the same. But if I offended you by making this comparison, I apologize. But again, tell me then. It's not like you to hold back TW.

How about I concede that? I'll just worry about myself.


ok, but if you feel I go over the line, feel free to tell me.......in a nice way. You can even tell me to back off. I'll get it.

He's NOT an alternative in my opinion. Alternative implies a different choice of equal value, and I don't agree that his philosophies and suggestions are


And I like Dobson and so does Amanda. I feel as tho he helped me with my kids along the way. How would you feel if I started to trash those you recommend or think well about? What if I said the Sears guy you told me about (Amanda read his stuff btw) was stupid and foolish? I haven't read him so I'm just saying this hypothetically.

We're not called to love the likable ones, KFC, we're called to love the ugly ones, the ones that are hard to love. We're not called to condone their behaviour, just to love them. And to let God do the rest.But I really don't need to be telling you this. I KNOW you know it, and in fact, you should be teaching ME on this subject. And that is why I'm calling you on it.


Yes, Gid. I agree. There is nothing I've said here, (that I'm aware of anyways) that is showing lack of love. There is much behavior here I don't condone....but I'm still here. The reason? Because I do enjoy all of your company....even TW and LW and Dharma whom I get along with the least around here. I come away a bit beat up after conversing with them, but I pretty much hold my tongue. If you knew me 20 years ago, you'd be nodding your head up and down here. I have had many emails personally from JU regulars that have noticed this and told me so. You and Tova are only two of quite a few JU regulars that email me personally. I just don't advertise the others because I don't want to violate their privacy.

Personally, I'm asking you to give it a lot of consideration because I'd hate to see your son and DIL have the same distance between you and them as I have between me and my father. It's painful to have to break those family ties, KFC, and I would hate to see you and your family go through it.


Thank you for this advice Gid. I do want you to know that I am not in danger here of this. At least right now....Amanda and I have a very good relationship and I have a very good relationship with my boys. They call home weekly if not more than that. I'm blessed to have a close family here Gid and I know that. It looks like Amanda and Brian want to have the same type of family we have and she does ask and listen to advice. She's like a sponge. She's soaking it all up. She's smart enough tho to take away what she wants and disregard what she doesn't and it doesn't hurt my feelings.

And a lot of it has to do with the way he treated us, with the opinionated attitude and the arrogance I sometimes feel you display


Well Gid, see the diff between me and you is that I may see these attitudes in you and TW and others but I'd rarely say it and when I do I try to soften it a bit. You keep telling me how arrogant I am. You don't have to keep repeating this. I'd never sit here and go on and on about what I see in the negative here about you or others. And I do see stuff. I just keep it to myself.

I try to look at the positive. Now, if my family is intact and doing well wouldn't it mean that I should share some of the good tips, reasons, teachings I've come away with? Is it arrogant to do so or is it because I want that for you as well? It's not that I'm arrogant Gid. It's that I want you (or anyone I'm speaking to) have the same joy that I have. My family is grown and I've seen an awful lot along the way. I helped a mom bury her 15 year old son because he committed suicide. I saw the anger in him at age 7. He was on our baseball team. We weren't surprised when he took his life. I've seen kids basically throw their parents away because of permissive parenting. I've seen kids killed or seriously injured because of the same type of parenting. I've seen family members and others destroyed marriages because of their kids (this is more common than you may realize). The warning signs are always there. But trying to tell someone this before it's too late is almost impossible.

I've got some 20/20 hindsight about family dynamics by seeing some very interesting but sad happenings as we've been very involved in the last two communities we've lived in. We've coached baseball for eight years. We ran (husband was Scout Master) the Boy Scout Organization for that same amount of time. We've Pastored two churches and done countless couseling (most successfully) so if I tend to be a bit opinionated here and there about things that involve these things there's a reason behind it. It's not arrogant. it's out of caring I say certain things.

Amanda and I were discussing this blog tonight at dinner. We are both shocked at the response this, what seemed an innocent little off the cuff late at night typing, thread turned out to be. Honestly I didn't think this wouldn't get even much of a nod. Thanks TW. You sure got us off to quite the start here.






on Sep 13, 2007
Um...so how does being home help at all when the kid is in school?


Well Karma that wasn't brought up. You said:

However, I know plenty of stay at home Mom's that spend very little actual time with their kids. They may be home, but that's about it


There's nothing in here about school. So school wasn't a factor in your earlier conversation. Here's my solution.

I was a stay at home mom until my youngest got into school full time. I had my three and three others I took care of after school and on vacations. So I had six kids in my charge for about 6 years. While the kids were in school I went back to work. I worked until the bus brought my kids home from school. I worked 9-3. It was perfect for all of us.

Please explain in detail how being home is always better? Because, I live right next door to a stay at home Mom, and I know that just being home isn't all that is needed. Just like working Moms can be bad Moms- so can stay at home Moms.


The best way I can explain this to you Karma is resentment. The kids understand if the mom has to work or if the mom needs extra stuff so they can live like the Joneses. The three kids I babysat for didn't turn out so well. Well one did okay, but the other two did not. I could see especially in one the resentment he had for his mother leaving him. He saw that I was home with my three and he was jealous of their time with me. He turned out to be a great disappointment for his mother She worked hard to give him all the best things in life. She and her husband worked full time not because they had to but because they wanted to have nice things. This kid had all the nice things like the newest games or technology that came down the pike. I used to buy his stuff used when he was done with it and give it to my kids for presents. While he had things, he had no mother around during the day and no siblings. He had resentment big time and it came out in all sorts of ways.

My M-i-l commented on this same thing. She had six kids. With her first four she stayed home. Her last two who came along later in life, she went to work. By their teens they were involved in alot of things while she was at work. Her first four never got involved in this stuff but the last two did. I don't think it was a coincidence. She felt the teens need you home more than the young ones do.

I have never heard you ever take anyone else's view. You base you views on your life


Well I guess you haven't read me enough then. I've even asked for pointers here and there on occasion on things that I thought I could get some help on. But I'm not going to take another's view just for the sake of doing so and to make you like me better. I know for a fact that some agree here with others on JU but only for the sake of "making or keeping friends." One thing about TW that I do admire, is she's honest, even if brutally so sometimes. I think she could be nicer in her opinions and not so mean, but I do like her honesty. Some of the others come across as nice but they don't really mean what they are saying.

You aren't going to convince anyone to see your faith and become Christian if this is the best example that you can make. I simply don't get it.


now is this because I'm not taking your view about something or because I believe there could be another view that is contrast to yours? Because while I HAVE NOT criticized your NOT wanting your daughter to cry, you have criticized my opinion that sometimes it's needed to let them cry. I'm the one getting flamed for thinking this is ok to do. I'm from the old school and you are not. That's about what it amounts to. Let's agree to disagree, but let's not attack one another.

Secondly I'm (and I've said this many times) not out to convince anyone to become a Christian. I am unable to do this. I admit that. That's not what God has called me to do. Only God can do the convincing.


on Sep 13, 2007
That you really DO it? That you beat people up with your faith a lot?


Ok Dharma answer me this. When did I beat YOU up with my faith alot?

on Sep 13, 2007
Thank you for this advice Gid. I do want you to know that I am not in danger here of this. At least right now....Amanda and I have a very good relationship and I have a very good relationship with my boys. They call home weekly if not more than that. I'm blessed to have a close family here Gid and I know that. It looks like Amanda and Brian want to have the same type of family we have and she does ask and listen to advice. She's like a sponge. She's soaking it all up. She's smart enough tho to take away what she wants and disregard what she doesn't and it doesn't hurt my feelings.


And that is good. Just be sure to listen to her if there's ever a conflict, okay? I'm telling you this from the OTHER side of the fence.

Only you know how your family is on that score, so I'll trust your assessment. But please, listen both to what they say and what they don't say

Well Gid, see the diff between me and you is that I may see these attitudes in you and TW and others but I'd rarely say it and when I do I try to soften it a bit.


I tell people flat out I'm arrogant, KFC. I make no bones about it. So you pointing it out is only affirming what I already know.

I've seen kids basically throw their parents away because of permissive parenting.


There's a difference, though, between the permissive parenting that allows a child to do anything they want and the kind of parenting that sets boundaries but focuses closely on the family bonding. I am routinely complimented on my childrens' behaviour, so we're doing something right here.

on Sep 14, 2007
I am routinely complimented on my childrens' behaviour, so we're doing something right here.


and that can be a pretty good barometer. It's not what you think of your children that really tells all because we are all so subjective but ask the neighbors, the teachers and others and you'll get the real answer. I had a problem with my youngest's attitude in High School and it was evident by the teacher's and coach's comments. We worked very hard with him to turn him around and in his Senior year he was a much diff kid. The coaches and teachers made comments because they saw the diff. Today he's wonderful. Maybe I'll post later on what he wrote for my birthday. It was sweet and made it all worthwhile even tho I wanted to bang my head against the wall whenever I talked with him for quite a while.

I just commented to Amanda tonight about the two boys across the street. They are very well behaved, great manners and are very thoughtful. And they are JR HIGH age. These two are about the nicest boys out there. Those two parents are doing a great job. They are doing much the same type of parenting that we did here. Keep the kids involved and busy in (our case) sports which help them also in the disciplines of life. The kids appreciate all the parents do for them. They understand the sacrifices being made on their behalf. If not to the full extent right now, they will later. That's when the dividends really pay off.

Many parents are blind to their kids behaviors because they don't feel comfortable doing the discipline. Even Dobson wrote a book called "Dare to Discipline." Most are afraid to for fear they will damage their child when in fact it's just the opposite.

I heard a saying once, "a spoiled child hates his mother." This is very true and kind of backs up the "spare the rod, spoil the child" scripture we all know so well. And for all those horrified with that thought. It's the principle of disciplining, it's not about beating your child.
on Sep 14, 2007

He turned out to be a great disappointment for his mother She worked hard to give him all the best things in life. She and her husband worked full time not because they had to but because they wanted to have nice things. This kid had all the nice things like the newest games or technology that came down the pike.

Holy crap, KFC, did you really listen to what you just wrote?  The example didn't have anything to do with a working parent versus a non-working parent, it had to do with parents who gave stuff to their kids instead of paying attention to them.  That can happen no matter how the family structure is.

She had six kids. With her first four she stayed home. Her last two who came along later in life, she went to work. By their teens they were involved in alot of things while she was at work

So, did she not have anyone watching them at all while she was at work?  And, could her second two have anything to do with her age and the possibility that she wasn't paying as much attention to them as she did her first 4 working or not?

Your opinions seem to be based on a very narrow group of personal experiences.  I work with many people from singles parents, parents who worked, etc., and they are very well adjusted, successful adults.  Heck, the owner of the company was raised by a single, working Mom, and he turned out just fine. 

I'm the one getting flamed for thinking this is ok to do.

Flamed?  Flamed?  Oh, my....you really have a thin skin.  Trust me, you have not been "flamed" in this thread.  I don't even know where to start on that one.......  And, it wasn't that you thought it was OK to do this that people were objecting to, it's how you presented yourself.  Your article has stuff in it like: "He's a master manipulator", and " Big mistake we told her. It's time he goes down awake".  It's the way you present your views, as if you know everything, and you are telling others (in this case, your DIL) what they should do.  You sound like you have never had to deal with other people's opinions much.  I can only assume that you are the matriarch of your family, and you get super defensive if there is a differing opinion (and this is based on what you write).  My MIL is the same way, but she has come to realize that older does not always equal wiser.  Though, by comments you made on this article, I doubt you will ever believe that.

on Sep 14, 2007
KarmaGirl posts:
Your opinions seem to be based on a very narrow group of personal experiences. I work with many people from singles parents, parents who worked, etc., and they are very well adjusted, successful adults. Heck, the owner of the company was raised by a single, working Mom, and he turned out just fine.


KarmaGirl, aren't your opinions based on a very narrow group of personal experiences when you say, "I work with many people from singles parents, parents who worked, etc., and they are very well adjusted, successful adults. Heck, the owner of the company was raised by a single, working Mom, and he turned out just fine" ?

There are 100s of books written, medical, academic, facts, figures, and studies galore with evidence that explain the good and bad, the advantages and disadvantages between day care vs parental care and upbringing of preschool age children.

As you pointed out, all we need to do is look around us and we can see successes; but we can also see failure and disadvantages as well.

The 1996 Census Bureau Report shows that 66.2% of infant and preschool age children were taken care of by someone outside the home and the majority were taken of by a non-relative. This significance of the decline of parent-child contact time has been reported in subsequent studies, the one I'm referring to is July 2002 census study.

Hands on parental care for children has declined in general since 1965. The study showed that the amount of time that the average less than 5 year old child spent interacting with a parent dropped by 43% from around 30 hours a week to 17 hours.

As far as the children are concerned, can it be demonstrated that they are worse off under the care of someone else other than their parents as it was before 1965? The answer is yes to some and no to others. Why? becasue it's a complicated matter and one in which we all have our own opinions on the matter that most have to do with our personal experiences.





on Sep 14, 2007
Has anyone else ever found it funny that we idolize the fifties and early sixties as the "idyllic American Way" but it was really just a strange paradox of circumstances that had never existed before and (as far as I figure) will never happen again?

That's not the way America ever was, and it won't ever be that way again. Sorry, guys, but it's just not possible. It was a strange fifteen years, and it's highly debatable as to whether or not it was even good.
on Sep 14, 2007
That's not the way America ever was,


Well, it was that way in the 50s and 60s.

But I understand your point and agree with it.
on Sep 14, 2007
Well, it was that way in the 50s and 60s.


That's why we call them "the good ol' days". Then again, when my parents saw me dancing to the Rolling Stones, they thought their generation was "the good ol days".
on Sep 14, 2007
Then again, when my parents saw me dancing to the Rolling Stones, they thought their generation was "the good ol days".


You can dance to them?
on Sep 14, 2007
You can dance to them?


Yes, if you want to call it dancing, you know what I mean!
shaking it up compared to my parent's crooning to Frank Sinatra
on Sep 14, 2007
you know what I mean!


OH! That dancing! Sure! I cna do a Ray Ramano!
on Sep 14, 2007

KarmaGirl, aren't your opinions based on a very narrow group of personal experiences when you say, "I work with many people from singles parents, parents who worked, etc., and they are very well adjusted, successful adults. Heck, the owner of the company was raised by a single, working Mom, and he turned out just fine" ?

I was referring to multiple incidences, she was referring to to two.  The people I work with are also not directly in my life, the children she cared for and the ones related to her are.  And, I also listen to many people's opinions, and I mean real people, not books. 

LulaPilgram, how exactly do you know KFC, anyway?  Are you related?  You appear to live very close to each other, so I doubt it is coincidence that you are so defensive on her behalf. 

on Sep 14, 2007
That's why we call them "the good ol' days"


Which is a bunch of total bunk. On the surface, it seemed nice - but the materialism, bigotry, and misogyny of that time period was absolutely abhorrent.

The "good ol' days" were anything but.
7 PagesFirst 4 5 6 7