Does Evil Exist?
Published on September 8, 2007 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Religion
Got this story from a friend and thought it was quite thought provoking. Does evil exist or is it better stated that evil is just the absence of something good?



Let me explain the problem science has with religion." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

"You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"

"Yes sir," the student says.

"So you believe in God?"

"Absolutely."

"Is God good?"

"Sure! God's good."

"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"

"Yes."

"Are you good or evil?"

"The Bible says I'm evil."

The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?"

"Yes sir, I would."

"So you're good...!"

"I wouldn't say that."

"But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't."

The student does not answer, so the professor continues. "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"

The student remains silent.

"No, you can't, can you?" the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.

"Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"

"Er...yes," the student says.

"Is Satan good?"

The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No."

"Then where does Satan come from?"

The student falters. "From God"

"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"

"Yes, sir."

"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?"

"Yes."

"So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil."

Again, the student has no answer. "Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?"

The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."

"So who created them?"

The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. "Who created them?" There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues onto another student. "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"

The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor, I do."

The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"

"No sir. I've never seen Him."

"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"

"No, sir, I have not."

"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?"

"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."

"Yet you still believe in him?"

"Yes."

"According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?"

"Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my faith."

"Yes, faith," the professor repeats. "And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith."

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?"

"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."

"And is there such a thing as cold?"

"Yes, son, there's cold too."

"No sir, there isn't."

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees."

"Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."

Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.

"What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?"

"Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it isn't darkness?"

"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word."

"In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?"

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. "So what point are you making, young man?"

"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed."

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can you explain how?"

"You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought."

"It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it."

"Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"

"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."

"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

"Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.

"To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean."

The student looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out into laughter.

"Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir."

"So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?"

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.

Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. "I guess you'll have to take them on faith."

"Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life," the student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?"

Now uncertain, the professor responds, "Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.


"

Comments (Page 2)
7 Pages1 2 3 4  Last
on Sep 09, 2007
If faith comes directly from Him, and since He is Just and Merciful, then it should be available to all.


Why? Can't God be just and merciful yet Sovereign as well? In other words is it not his own perogative who He decides to give faith to or not?

Think of it from a Christian perspective. We all sin. We all deserve death. For God to be as just as you're saying, we all need to be punished. That's what a human judge would do, right? We all deserve to go to hell based on what we've done.

on Sep 09, 2007
I would not be concerned about that, the whole question cant be proved in an absolute sense in terms of "right" or "wrong", which ever faction one resides in.
(emphasis is mine)

If you keep that in mind, and not ask for an absolute proof, the most probable explanation of what we see is the existence of a Creator.

If it was that easy it would have been resolved long ago in the last 2,000 years


It is not that easy, and it is not that difficult either. it depends on the mindset of each individual.

By nature, humans are not easily submissive to authority and dont like restrictions and rules. Admitting to the existence of the Most Higher authority is not easy at all. I think that this inner resistence is what blocks the individual from treating the subject without built-in bias.

It is like looking at the world through a brown sunglasses. Everything looks brownish and colors are a little off and some details are not recogniazable. The sunglasses relieve the eyes from the bright sunlight and its painful glare. removing it is not easy to do. but if someone wants to see things clearly they must remove those sunglasses and accept the pain and struggle that comes with that. All of course depends on whether that pain is worth the rewards of seeing things clearly. I think this is the reason that it is difficult for some to treat the issue in an unbiased manner.

In science we accept the most probable explanation of any phenomenon we study even if it defies our apparent logic. In this issue, however, many demand an absolute proof. Like seeing God HIMSELF. That is the mystery of us humans. We do things in many mysterious ways ...... sort of like our Creator i guess .

on Sep 10, 2007
Why? Can't God be just and merciful yet Sovereign as well? In other words is it not his own perogative who He decides to give faith to or not?



Think of it from a Christian perspective. We all sin. We all deserve death. For God to be as just as you're saying, we all need to be punished. That's what a human judge would do, right? We all deserve to go to hell based on what we've done.


I dont know where to start here KFC. But the first thing that i must say is: it is better if you say "from my perspective". I think many Christians, Jews and Muslims will disagree with you.

First: I think you are misunderstanding the concept of Sovereignty. Being sovereign doesnt mean you must be a dictator, unjust, or unmerciful. God is Sovereign, no question. But He promised to be Just. and He doesnt break His promises. Yes He has perogatives but they are never encroach on His Justice or Mercy. Not only that. HE actually loves it if all Humans believe in Him. so why would He deny that to anyone of us? It pains Him that he Must punish some of us because that is what justice dictates sometimes. But he would love to see that ALL of Humans are believers. But since He gave them the choice, again He keeps His promises and leaves it to us to decide.



Second: Your view of death is very surprising to me. "we all deserve death"? Is death a punishment?



I dont think so. Death is a natural end to everything He created. Things are Created then Die. Only Him is the Eternal. that is the way it is. a plant dies not because it is punished, neither anything else is punished by death. Even Planets and Stars die and the Universe itself will die. it is not a punishnment, it is the natural end of mortal things including us.



Again, you miss that the fact we all sin and He can also forgive us for certain sins but not for others is not contradictory to being just. The fact that we all sin doesnt mean we all will be punished. He has the authority to forgive whoever deserves that forgiveness. Justice does not exclude forgiveness or mercy. Justice is His minimum scale of jsutice. some will get mere Justice, others will get not only justice but forgiveness, mercy and even generosity on top of all that. It all depends on how we deal with Him and with all His creations during our lives here on Earth.




NOTE:

The fact that death is used in this life as a punishnment doesnt contradict what i said above. The act of dying IS the punishment. Death is painful, even the natural one. God promised to make it painless for the believers. But that is another topic completely. Still, everything God created will eventually die. HE and HE alone IS the Eternal. Accordingly, it is not a punishnment, it is a natural end to everything except HIM.
on Sep 10, 2007
But the first thing that i must say is: it is better if you say "from my perspective". I think many Christians, Jews and Muslims will disagree with you.


Well when I say "Christian perspective" I'm not talking Muslim. They are not Christian. I am not talking Jews because they are not Christians either. So that leaves just the Christian perspective. With that I could further clarify that term for you and either say I'm coming from the historic Christian faith or the biblical Christian faith. Take your pick. Either fits me.

It pains Him that he Must punish some of us because that is what justice dictates sometimes. But he would love to see that ALL of Humans are believers


We have common ground here TA. But his desire and his will are two diff things. He may desire we all are saved but he doesn't will us to be. If he did, we all would be.

But since He gave them the choice, again He keeps His promises and leaves it to us to decide.


Since I believe in election from God, I would have to part company with you on this one TA. I believe it's God who does the choosing not us. Jesus said, "You do not choose me but it is I who have chosen you." We've already decided. We would rather go our own way than go his way because of our inheritance of sin.

we all deserve death"? Is death a punishment?


Yes to both. Death (eternal) would be justice for breaking God's laws and commands.

Again, you miss that the fact we all sin and He can also forgive us for certain sins but not for others


oh no. I don't miss that fact. While we all DESERVE death God's mercy and grace (unmerited favor) is bestowed on those who believe in his son's work on the cross who died for our sins. He paid our penalty. He paid the fee for us. We now have been set free from the debt we incurred. But what are you talking about when you say "certain sins?" I believe there is no sin he left behind that is unaccounted for but unbelief.

NOTE: When I speak of death I'm speaking of eternal death. So when I say we all deserve death for our sins I'm speaking eternal death, not physical death. There are two deaths. One is when our spirit is separated from the body (the physical) and the other is when our spirit is separated from God (eternal).

Perhaps you've not heard the saying that goes:

Born once, die twice
Born twice, die once.



on Sep 10, 2007
Not to get back on topic, but:

Although this indicates to me there is no Satan. Satan is just a concept that indicates an absence of God, no?


This was a serious question, not my typical jab. I assume you posted what you posted because you found logic in it. So is what I said not the logical conclusion of what you posted? You "said" evil is an absence of God. Does it not then translate that Satan is an absence of God or do you retract the mechanism? It's a bit of a trap, I realize, and I don't intend it subversively. Either Satan doesn't exist or an "absence of God" doesn't exist. That's muddy. Sorry:

If Satan exists, then God is absent where Satan exists. If God cannot be absent at all, then Satan cannot exist at all. According to the logic of the post, that is.
on Sep 10, 2007
Think Aloud Posts:

Second: Your view of death is very surprising to me. "we all deserve death"? Is death a punishment?


KFC POSTS:

Yes to both. Death (eternal) would be justice for breaking God's laws and commands.




NOTE: When I speak of death I'm speaking of eternal death. So when I say we all deserve death for our sins I'm speaking eternal death, not physical death. There are two deaths. One is when our spirit is separated from the body (the physical) and the other is when our spirit is separated from God (eternal).


I agree with KFC.

To respond to TA's question from a biblical perspective, we must look at God's punishment of Adam and Eve for their sin of disobedience.

GOd made Adam and Eve in His supernatural image, in a state of perfect grace, their bodies were immortal--free from all sickness and of growing old.

In Genesis 2:17, "But of the tree of Knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death." Here Almighty God threatened man with a twofold death, the death of the soul and the death of the body. Although the last didn't take place immediately after Adam sinned, (as he lived until he was 930 years old), all the same, from the moment he sinned, his body became liable to death.

The death of the soul took place the instant the sin was committed. That is, because the soul is immortal, the moment it commits a grevious sin, it loses its supernatural life, founded on grace and friendship with God. The loss of grace is the soul's spiritual death, and leads to its eternal death. This is why Catholics call grevious sins "mortal" or "deadly" sins.

on Sep 10, 2007
Either Satan doesn't exist or an "absence of God" doesn't exist. That's muddy. Sorry:


Can't Satan exist along with the absence of God being evil? That's how I take it. Satan is filled with darkness. He has NO light in him. None. He is the epitomy of evil. One without God. Satan IS evil. I believe SATAN does exist and he is the picture of what the total depravity of man looks like to God without Him in our lives. When God looks at us does he see the light of his son in us? That's going to be the deciding factor one minute after we die......according to the historic Christian faith.

Sorry I missed ya Ock!! I probably took it as your "typical jab" when I first read ya!
on Sep 10, 2007
But what are you talking about when you say "certain sins?" I believe there is no sin he left behind that is unaccounted for but unbelief


You are correct. Unbelief is not forgivable. Forgiveness of other sins which do not involve others's rights are forgivable for those who desreve it.He decides who deserves it based on their actions before death like sincere repentence, other good deeds,....etc.

Sins which involve other's rights are subject to the approval of those others . God does not forgive those sins unless the person involved agrees. for example, if someone did not pay his debt God does not foregive that unless the person involved agrees to that forgiveness. God encourages us to agree to forgive with the promise that He will reward us for that too.

That is what i meant by "certain sins".
on Sep 10, 2007
Think Aloud posts:
But since He gave them the choice, again He keeps His promises and leaves it to us to decide.


KFC POSTS: Since I believe in election from God, I would have to part company with you on this one TA. I believe it's God who does the choosing not us.


Here, "election" IS a personal perspective of KFC.

I too believe it's God who does the choosing...and Scripture tells us that He chooses all. God, being ALl-Just, All Merciful, always gives and always will give every one in the world the means of attaining the grace necessary for entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven. The fact that all will not attain Heaven indicates that some will not accept His invitation of grace.
on Sep 10, 2007
I like the way you think and speak. I think Atheism is wasted on you. I do believe you would make a wonderful addition to Christianity.....lol

Bookmark that one for St Peter when I arrive at the pearly gates muttering .... "ooppps"....   

I have heard it said many times that it takes more faith to be an atheist than a Christian. Do you agree or disagree with that?

I've heard that naughty loaded question before as well, usually said by devout believers with a wicked grin   

I always marvel at many individuals need to create neat labels. I can be described as an atheist, fair enough, thats the term used by most to describe someone with views like myself, there are others of course, such as "You Heathen SOB"   .

Then, someone decides that atheists therefore believe in atheism - I sit there and think, atheism? I do? Okie Doke, if it keeps them happy fine ....

At the end of the day I'm like most people, I just get on with my life, I see no reason to turn a negative (a non-believer) into a positive by saying I "believe" in atheism, as if the latter is some kind of creed or religion in itself. Its simple, I'm just not in the religious category. I look out of windows, not vision enhancement devices.

Some view that as sad, as there must be more to life. Why should there be? At the end of the day there is no denying that eternal peace and happiness is an enticing prospect - hey its a good deal for a small outlay ..... but as in all investments you need to be convinced of its viability. So far, I'm not, but I do get get irritated by those who demand the right not to believe, then promptly redicule those who do (and the other way around ...) its the ultimate arrogance.

So I will continue my (not so empty) existence with my delightful wife (a practicing Christian) of 34 years marriage. Anyway, she reckons she's got it covered, she will tell St Peter he should let me in if I promise to put down the toilet seat and do the dishes for a change   
on Sep 10, 2007
The death of the soul took place the instant the sin was committed. That is, because the soul is immortal, the moment it commits a grevious sin, it loses its supernatural life, founded on grace and friendship with God. The loss of grace is the soul's spiritual death, and leads to its eternal death. This is why Catholics call grevious sins "mortal" or "deadly" sins.


I guess that is what Zydor called verbal gymnastic. It is a philosophical definition for the death of something (the soul) that we dont even know its nature. As far as i know our souls never die. It is in our bodies while we are alive, when God takes it back we physically die. It is restored to our bodies on the Day of Judgement and then we either go, with it, to hell or to heaven.

Any philosophical manipulation of the whole thing has no meaning or usefulness for any human.
on Sep 10, 2007
"Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"

"Er...yes," the student says.

"Is Satan good?"

The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No."

"Then where does Satan come from?"

The student falters. "From God"

"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"

"Yes, sir."

"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?"

"Yes."

"So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil."

Again, the student has no answer. "Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?"

The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."

"So who created them?"


The problem with this scenario is that God did not create Satan.

Like everything else, the angels were created for the glory and honor of GOd. God created them good and holy and endowed them with excellent gifts of understanding and grace. Since God will not have any forced love, He gave them the gift of free will. Isaias 14:12-14, tells us that God only created a pure angelic spirit, Lucifer. Scripture tells us that Lucifer and a portion of the angels made bad use of their freedom and overly proud of their gifts, and out of pure malice and pride rebelled against God, fell into sin which changed them into devils and cast them into Hell.

So God didn't create Satan or the devil or any of the demons. He created all the angels "good by nature".


From this understanding we can better answer Where does evil come from? It comes from sin of which Scripture says, Pride is the beginning of all sin." Ecc.10:15.

FROM THE ARTICLE:
To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart.


Evil is becasue sin is. Evil is more the absence of due Good. St. Thomas teaches in Summa Theologica, that evil is a "deficiency of some good which ought to be present". It's a real privation. Moral evil, or sin, is a thought, word or deed that goes counter to the right reason and the law of God such as murder, adultery or theft.

Therefore, God cannot be the cause of evil for evil being something privative, cannot be the term of a postive creative act. In Divine Providence, Downey writes, "Just as the sun in the heavens gives light, while the shadow on the ground the absence of light, is caused by the intervention of some obstacle, such as a tree blocking out the rays of light; so the infinitely Good God is the cause of nothing but goodness, the absence of goodness, wherever it occurs being caused by the intervention of some creative object, not infrequently by the misuse of free will on the part of man."
on Sep 10, 2007
ThinkAloud makes a valid point in terms of Catholicism.
On the one hand:
the soul is immortal

But,
the moment it commits a grievous sin, it loses its supernatural life

(its either immortal or it isn’t)
The loss of grace is the soul's spiritual death, and leads to its eternal death

Why? Its immortal
This is why Catholics call grievous sins "mortal" or "deadly" sins

And the reason I have known many to shy away from Catholicism.

It is in itself an illogical statement, and designed more as (almost) scare tactics to keep the faithful in line. That whole aspect of Catholic philosophy falls over on the angle of forgiveness - if even "mortal" sins cannot be forgiven in confessional, why bother going at all ? etc etc etc.

Yes, what I've said is verbal gymnastics - to a degree - because the principle being offered (ie: behave yourself) is clear. But the ultimate threat of eternal damnation regardless of contrition or forgiveness or the principles of the confessional, fly’s against the broad principle of forgiveness in Christianity. Result, doubt and drawing away to other Faiths. Its a Catholic classic (no offence intended with the latter words), demands perfect lives, denies the existence of Hell (no soul left, so you can’t go to Hell), and defacto makes Judgment day pointless as its all sorted before then.

The latter path is where the Church does itself no favours trying to define everything down the last degree - it cant, you cant precisely define a Faith, its a Spiritual concept. You end up with :
Any philosophical manipulation of the whole thing has no meaning or usefulness for any human.

Which is a good comment.
The above does not "destroy" Catholicism or other such meaningless phrases, but the Church does make it harder for those looking in to understand what Catholicism really is when it contradicts itself in this way.
on Sep 10, 2007
and Scripture tells us that He chooses all


Lula can you tell me what verse or scripture you're referring to here?

As far as i know our souls never die. It is in our bodies while we are alive, when God takes it back we physically die. It is restored to our bodies on the Day of Judgement and then we either go, with it, to hell or to heaven.


More common ground TA....lol. I agree with you here. Our souls never die. When we die our souls go to heaven or await the final judgment in Hades. We see a bit of this in Luke 16 when we read about the rich man and the begger.



on Sep 10, 2007
On the one hand:

the soul is immortal

But,

the moment it commits a grievous sin, it loses its supernatural life

(its either immortal or it isn’t)

The loss of grace is the soul's spiritual death, and leads to its eternal death

Why? Its immortal

This is why Catholics call grievous sins "mortal" or "deadly" sins


Okay everyone, I admit, I goofed in explaining this clearly.

but I'm wondering did everyone understand KFC's

Perhaps you've not heard the saying that goes:

Born once, die twice
Born twice, die once.
C'mon be truthful!!   


The human soul survives after physical death in the possession of an endless conscious existence. In this sense the nature of the soul is immortal. The immortality of the soul is taught in Genesis, Wisdom, Eccles. Proverbs, Isaias and Daniel.

After the Final Judgment, St.Matt. 25:46, the souls of the wicked shall go into everlasting punishment; but the souls of the just into life everlasting.

I think KFC referred to everlasting punishment as eternal death.

Perhaps the confusion comes from when we think of something that is immortal, we tend to think of eternal life...


7 Pages1 2 3 4  Last