Has God Abandoned America?

How Can We Know For Sure?

Published on June 4, 2007 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Religion

I heard a sermon today by John McArthur that held the audience spellbound. There was not a sound to be heard as he preached a most sobering sermon about America and God's wrath against it. He is one of the most respected and sought after speakers and theologians today and one that I admire as well. He says it straight, and I like that. He's not afraid to stand up and speak the truth, and his wisdom, I believe, is God given as he loves and preaches nothing other than the word of God. Anyhow here's what I heard to the best of my recollection today as I paraphrase some of his thoughts..

In the book of Judges we read about the strongest man that ever lived, Samson. We read one of the saddest commentaries surrounding him when we read this in 16:20b:

"And he knew not that the Lord was departed from him."

There's nothing sadder in the whole world than a God who has abandoned this people. During these times of the Judges, the children of God were constantly chasing after foreign gods. In fact, prior to Samson recognizing God's hand was no longer upon him, we read in Chap 10 that God was through with them. He gave them up to their heathen gods telling them to let their foreign gods save them from their troubles.

Hosea wrote of this in 4:17:

"Ephraim is joined to idols, let him alone."

After Jesus conftronted the Pharisees in Matthew 15, he went on to describe them as the blind leading the blind....let them alone he said. When God lets you go, it's serious.

Then John went on to say that God has abandoned America and one can see this clearly from the scripture. In Acts 16:15 Paul was preaching to the nation pleading with them to turn to the living God, the creator of all the earth. He said in verse 16:

"Who in times past allowed all nations to walk in their own ways."

This is not the first nation to go down nor will it be the last. We are heading as in times past walking in our own ways. We see a cycle of history as Paul describes in Romans 1:18 to the end of the chapter. This is what it says:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. 28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

There are five different manifestations to God's wrath that we see in scripture.

1. Eternal Wrath-unbelievers will experience this, being forever totally separated from God
2. Eschatological Wrath-This wrath is end of the earth wrath against the earth described in Revelation-yet to come
3. Calamitous Wrath-One in which a great calamity was allowed by God . An example of this would be the world wide flood.
4. Consequential Wrath-Patterns and results oriented. We reap what we sow sort of thing.
5. Abandonment Wrath-This is where He lets us go in the direction of our own sinful choices and desires.

This last one is what is at play in our society today. How do we know?

We see by the above passage that the wrath of God is revealed from heaven. We can see clearly the reasons for this wrath and beginning with v24 can see the description of this wrath. Three times it says he gave them over which is "Paradidomi" and means to "give or hand over" give or deliver up" as to a prison or judgment.

Basically he's handing us over as a society to be sentenced. Somebody said, "The history of the world is the judgment of the world." This wrath of abandonment is a result of men's willful, deliberate rejection of God.

So we now are being deprived of God's restraining grace as a nation. How do we know? We see that God gave them over to the lusts of their heart. The first thing that happens to a nation that no longer has the hand of God upon them is sexual perversion. Just for starters.....we can't even begin to count the millions of pornographic sites out there today. Before the internet , man had to go out to satisfy his sexual perversion by purchasing magazines or videos outside one's home . It was a shame and an embarrasing thing to go to a store or video store to purchase such material. So it was somewhat controlled or held at bay, but now the industry's exploded with the easily accessible way to porn by secrety obtaining such materials over the net. We can go back to the sixties and Hugh Hefner and see it's gone like a flood since then.

Sin is characterized by lust from the inside. The thoughts come from the heart and mind and the wickedness gets manifested through the body as a demonstration of what's going on inside. That's why Christ said it's what's inside that defiles a man, not what's outside. James says lust conceives, brings forth sin, and sin brings forth death. Right thinking precedes right living.

There are three steps to determine if God has let go of a nation. The first step is that every form of sexual immorality is accepted by society. The second step is when lesbian sex is celebrated by a society. It's unnatural and unthinkable in God's eyes. So first we see the sexual revolution followed by the homosexual revolution. We see here in the above passage that the women are picked first here. When the women start leading the sexual parade God removes his restraint. Look at verse 27. It's amazing. Right here we can see the consequential wrath along with the wrath of abandonment, but they keep on doing it anyway. When it starts coming, it's like a flood. Nothing outside of God can stop this.

The last step we see in verse 28 is that God gave them over to a depraved mind. A depraved mind is non functional; useless; can't think; can't comprehend; and is out of control.

We now can even see this line of thinking in churches today. This perversion is rampant, out of control. Society is rushing to acceptance and we are heading towards massive moral disaster. Can't somebody stand up and speak up? We read in Corinthians that man by his own wisdom cannot know God and with Satan all too willing to blind us we have a compound blindness here. We can't seem to allow anyone to take a strong position against such perversion and rally around it. Human wisdom is not getting us anywhere.

God has given this country over to a depraved mind. Whether you agree or not, it's something we need to think on seriously. Where are we heading? Is it too late to turn our country around?

Stay tuned."

Comments (Page 3)

bakerstreet

on Jun 06, 2007

Um, no, it doesn't look different at all. God is still there mocking our calamity and laughing at our dread. Basically behaving as unChristian as possible. Sure, there's a pouty excuse for it, but we're told that pouty excuses don't excuse turning our back on those we can help.

You aren't giving me the counsel of God, you're giving me antique mythologies, pseudo-religious nonsense that people used to blame each other for tragedy, or to excuse their genocide. You're just making a case for not minding your own business.

Why? Because when you start this "nation" junk, that starts giving you the right to judge. After all, you've suddenly got to get this nation turned around, and you can't do that without addressing all those splinters in other people's eyes. Suddenly we've moved from a personal relationship with God to some political relationship with God, and you start "kicking for Christ".

Suddenly, you are put at risk by other people's sins, so you have the right to mind something that would otherwise be none of your business. Convenient, huh?

" I'll say it one more time....God knows and judges the heart. He knows if they are sincerely repenting or just sorry for their calamity. He knows his sheep and his sheep respond."

Then the "Nation" thing is meaningless. In the end its just the unrepentant sinners, as always, that God's turned His back on. He will hear his "sheep" call during all those volcanoes and hurricanes, and all the prodigal sons, too. So we're right back to where we started before all the "nation" junk was brought up.

Oddly enough, you don't exactly believe that, either, as witnessed by your post #26:

"I look at the Twin Towers as Satan doing his thing and God allowing it to happen. Evil unleashed."

I wonder, was God laughing at our calamity that day? Was He laughing and mocking, out in the street with the Palestinians? Can you see a perfect God mocking anyone suffering?

I'll give you a clue. If God is perfect, and I believe He is, then he'll be better than we are. He'll be just as good as he demands that we be. He won't be the polar opposite of the example Christ gave us. He won't turn His back on anyone.

You go on and spend your time smugly blaming other people for natural disasters and the like. Whatever makes you feel better, maybe picket a funeral or two. In the end, you have to have something to point to in order to validate all the nosing around in other people's lives and bedrooms. Otherwise, it will just seem like the empty judgemental silliness it is.

I guess if you want to blame such stuff for volcanoes, knock yourself out.

bakerstreet

on Jun 06, 2007

lol, when Ward Churchill calls the people in the World Trade Center "little eichmanns" and blames their economic activities for the 9/11 attack, people go ballistic. When an evangelical preacher blames the same thing on homosexual sympathizers and our national values, a lot of those same people nod approvingly. It boggles the mind.

You know, terrorists say the same thing. They say that because of our wickedness God will throw us down and deliver us into the hands of our enemies. It amazes me that a preacher can stand behind a pulpit, basically saying the same thing as a terrorist, and not be the focus of at least as much ire as Ward Churchill.

lulapilgrim

on Jun 06, 2007

LULAPILGRIM POSTS:

God, being the Author of social order, created man as needing to live and develop within a community.

The third sphere of authority that was created, established and instituted by God for His purpose is the institution of government.

Romans 13:1-7
1 “Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been established by God.
2 Therefore, he who resists authorities opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will incur judgment upon themselves.
3 For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then, do what is good and you will receive his approval,
4 for he is God’s servant to you for the good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid: for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the evildoer.

There is no authority but by act of God, and the existing authorities are instituted by Him; consequently anyone who rebels against authority is resisting a divine order. So the authority contained in civil government is God’s authority and because it is both instituted and accountable to Him, it exists to accomplish His purpose.

BAKERSTREET POSTS:

"There is no authority but by act of God, and the existing authorities are instituted by Him; consequently anyone who rebels against authority is resisting a divine order."

I think that line alone would convince about anyone that you are mentally ill. So, resisting Hussein, Soviet Russia, Hitler, etc., was resisting divine order. The founding of America was an act of resisting the divine, since we were rebelling against the government of our leaders in England.

Bakerstreet, your response tells me that a restating of my initial premise of what Romans 13 means is in order.

There is a hierarchy of authority. God’s authority and His commands are supreme, numero uno, absolute and above all else. It is from God and His Supreme Absolute Authority that we humankind, His wonderful creation, derive our 3 spheres of authority, which I briefly outlined in an above post. KFC’s blog deals, in part, with the third sphere of authority ----governmental (civil) authority of nations and God’s supreme right and authority over them.

I’m using Romans 13:1-4 to make my point. Romans 13:1 starts out by saying, “Let every soul be subject to the governing authority. For there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been established by God.” “every soul” means every living being...all mankind is subject to lawful civil authority. “Subject to lawful civil authority” is that which is obedient to, subject to and based on, in harmony with and conformed to God’s authority. Now, the power of this institution, as intended by God, is formidable.

Civil authority, like family authority and religious authority is delegated by God Himself for a purpose, His purpose. Such authority is not absolute since it is delegated to human individuals who are capable of misusing it. Therefore each user is accountable to God for his administration of such delegated authority as he holds, and he is held to a higher standard than the person who holds none.

At the same time when one is entrusted with that authority exercise it in the manner God intended, the authority has the full weight and power of God behind it. To oppose it is to oppose God. St.Paul states this clearly in v. 2. “Therefore, he who resists authorities opposes that what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will incur judgment upon themselves.” Based on this, I wrote, "There is no authority but by act of God, and the existing authorities are instituted by Him; consequently anyone who rebels against authority is resisting a divine order." AND I DON’T THINK I HAVE A MENTAL ILLNESS FOR DOING SO.

In the event I haven’t convinced you YET, I’ll continue.......

From Romans 13:2, I conclude that this is obviously a divine truth: God formed civil government by the delegation of a portion of his own authority. Therefore the authority contained in civil government is God’s authority. Because it’s God’s authority it is both instituted by God and accountable to Him to accomplish His intended purposes.

Romans v. 3 says, “ For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil...” God placed within the institution of civil government this cardinal principle which is its foundational and operational directive: government is to be a terror to evil; it is not to be a terror to good. Since the authority to accomplish this divine task is from God, He is also the standard for determining what is good and what is evil. God alone defines good and evil.

This btw, has nothing to do with reinstituting Mosaic Law for Scripture makes it abundantly clear that God has no desire for that. He sent His own Son to die on a Cross to get us out from under the Mosaic Law, once and for all, that we might obtain salvation through faith in His Son, Jesus Christ. Romans 13:3 clearly states the operational standards for civil government under the New Covenant which is to praise good and punish evil. Much of the morality expressed in the Mosaic Law, however, is transferable to civil law.

In a nutshell, lawful civil authority is that which is ordained by God. Its most basic operational mandate is to be a terror to evil works and a source of praise for what is good.

Using Romans 13: 1-4, Hussein, Soviet Russia and Hitler are 3 examples of unlawful civil authority because their actions and policies are “a terror to good”. Therefore, we must always and everywhere resist and oppose those as best we can. An example of this would be in discerning the actions of those in governmental authority or of those who would like to be in authority: Take Rudy Guilani. If elected, he has said he would uphold the unlawful provisions of Roe v. Wade. In other words, I as a Christian in good conscience and in conformity with the teachings of Christ, could/would/should not vote for him for he in supporting Roe would be a “terror to good”.

To expand upon this....and try to circle round back to the main topic of KFC’s blog which is God’s wrath upon people and nations that do not live lives or govern according to His Will and Law.

I would say that our unalienable right to life, liberty, private property, freedom of conscience and of the practice of religion founded by Jesus Christ are given to each human being by the Creator. No human authority has the authority from God to take these rights away. The Nation or State, too, may not even pretend to have such authority to deny us these fundamental rights, as all authority comes from Almighty God.

These rights come from God because God made us to live according to His Divine Will and to accomplish our individual vocations according to His Will to the best our ability. God hasn’t left us high and dry in order to accomplish this. To fulfill our duty to God and our fellow man (in charity), since we are free and rational beings, He has given us the means and the necessary rights and authority in order to achieve His Will for us.

Thus, these rights are given to us directly by God but immediately through the State. The States’, the Governments’, all the public authorities’, including school boards’, purpose is to promote harmoniously the God-given rights of its citizens so that the citizens, in exercising their rights unhampered, may the more easily save their souls and glorify God. The State may not ever on any pretext, even a majority vote, take away our God-given rights.

The blatant, grave injustice of abortion committed against the most innocent and defenseless of our fellow brothers and sisters still in the womb also indicates something else. It shows that many of our leaders and authorities here in the US and countries all over the world, as well as those of organizations such as the EU and the UN, are in effect and in practice declaring themselves independent of Jesus Christ and His reign over them. Scripture tells us that Jesus is King of kings and Lord of lords. Apoc. 19:16.

As our King, He demands that our legislatures, laws, courts, schools, and even our hospitals, reflect Him and His Law and that they do not contradict it. For those who do, verses 2-4 tell of the consequence.

“Therefore, he who resists authorities opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will incur judgment upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then, do what is good and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God’s servant to you for the good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid: for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the evildoer.”

bakerstreet

on Jun 06, 2007

So you'd agree that it would have been right to oppose the Catholic Church and the secular authority when they were burning Jews at the stake and selling indulgences, etc.? If so, the Reformation was probably a good thing, wasn't it? After all, it was in direct response to the authorities on Earth departing from God's commands.

MasonM

on Jun 06, 2007

Has God abandoned a nation that was built by way of the conquest, murder, and utter destruction of multiple nations of people? I should hope so.

KFC Kickin For Christ

on Jun 06, 2007

Well you're deliberating picking out the "poor people" and pointing out that God is the bad mean ol' ogre according to the scripture. Who is he mocking Baker? Just who is it? It's not "us" as in me. I don't claim that. We can see clearly they don't really want help. They want relief from their logical consequences but they don't want God. I see this all the day long.

You started the passage in Proverbs with v24 (Because I have called and you refused). Well who's he talking about? Just prior to what you quoted you can see Wisdom personified as a woman inviting ALL to come to her and learn but the majority refuse to heed her appeal. She cries in the streets for ALL to hear.

Then the passage turns to the "scorners." Those are the "us" that you're referring to. The scorners are thos who are proud, arrogant and deliberate troublemakers.

"Proud and haughty scorner is his name who deals in proud wrath. 21:24

"Cast out the scorner and contention shall go out; yes, strife and reproach shall cease." 22:10

These "despised" God and he leaves them "alone" and does not help them.

I'll give you a clue. If God is perfect, and I believe He is, then he'll be better than we are. He'll be just as good as he demands that we be. He won't be the polar opposite of the example Christ gave us. He won't turn His back on anyone.

Well then we agree. God is perfect. But to be perfect he's also going to institute justice. Christ turned his back on the nation Israel for their unbelief. What makes you so sure he's not going to turn his back on those who are not his "covenant" people?

God's justice announced in his law demanded perfect righteousness available only by faith in the God who had promised to send the seed of promise. Jesus, that promised seed, himself said that unless one was more righteous than the Pharisees they could not enter heaven. So it sounds to me, by the looks of it, that God is going to turn his back on many people. The only way to obtain this righteousness is thru the one who is righteous, and if they deny and scorn him away, there is no more sacrifice for sin. That's it.

bakerstreet

on Jun 06, 2007

So you would consider it "Godly" to go downtown and mock, say, unrepentant drunks sleeping in the park? Maybe you could go to an AIDS clinic and laugh derisively at the unrepentant dying.

Matthew 5

And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The important part for this discussion is the last few lines. If God is as you describe Him, then the admonition to be perfect as God is perfect would mean we would behave in a very different way than Jesus directs us to. I see nothing there that calls for us to only show mercy to the repentant. If the behavior Jesus describes is perfection, then how can your view of God be perfect?

It wouldn't kill those who love the Old Testment, angry God to review 6 and 7, too. As it says, if we are kind enough to care for out children, can we expect any less from a perfect God? Lest we forget, we are Christians, not Pharisees...

kingbee

on Jun 06, 2007

when exactly did god proclaim his citizenship or formally embrace the united states? would that be before or after witches were burned in salem? when washington and his colleagues distributed blankets infested with smallpox to the indigenous tribes? was he an investor in the slave economy? did he smile down upon the supreme court rendering the dred scott decision (that was a real imposition btw lulapilgrim; roe vs wade doesn't force anyone to do anything).

please point me to the scriptural basis for claiming mankind has an inalienable right to private property or to any constitutional recognition of an inalienable right to practice only the religion founded by jesus christ (which religion would that be? will kfc agree with lulapilgrim it's the rcc?? if not...)

lulapilgrim

on Jun 06, 2007

Lulapilgrim posts:

"As our King, He demands that our legislatures, laws, courts, schools, and even our hospitals, reflect Him and His Law and that they do not contradict it. For those who do, verses 2-4 tell of the consequence."

Bakerstreet posts: So you'd agree that it would have been right to oppose the Catholic Church and the secular authority when they were burning Jews at the stake and selling indulgences, etc.?

Yes, I oppose all evil doers in the Church...in the days of old and in the present day. The Church authority just as civil authority is delegated by God for His purpose. And we see, just as those individuals with civil authority, those in the Church with authority are capable of misusing their God-given authority. Choices made in opposition to God’s moral will are made in defiance to God’s authority. To their sorrow and anger, many people will some day find out that God is God, that He is existence itself, that He is Holy and He is Just. It's the Just God that many want to forget. Nonetheless, woe to them who misuse their authority. For each of them upon their death is accountable to God and he is held to a higher standard, i.e. .”..to whom much is given, much is required”.

Bakerstreet posts:

If so, the Reformation was probably a good thing, wasn't it? After all, it was in direct response to the authorities on Earth departing from God's commands.

“A good thing”? No, the Protestant Revolution convulsed the world and divided Christendom was a sad, sad thing. This is how I see it. When the Revolution broke out, the need for reform had long been felt. All Catholics who know Church history admit the wrong-doing of some in authority and certain abuses then existed....as you rightly say by ”these authorities on Earth departing from God's commands”. Catholics also believe that a thorough ecclesiastical housecleaning could have been effected without an all out rupture which caused religious social and political upheaval, blood to flow, and created a chasm in Christ's Church which time has not and may never close.

The faults in the Church at the time were those of individual conduct, rather than of doctrine and it was certainly the duty of the would-be Reformers to remain in the Church and reform her wayward members. But they didn’t do this. Their fault consisted in passing from an attack on the abuses and misdeeds of the wayward members to an all out assault upon the office of the Papacy and against the authentic Apostolic faith. They didn’t ‘reform’ anything, instead they revolted, rejected and denied just about all that is Catholic.

In the end, reform came, but it was from within the Catholic Church herself. Discipline was restored in the older religious orders and new ones were formed. The Council of Trent re-stated Catholic doctrine on points controverted by the Protestants and abuses connected with the preaching of Indulgences were stopped.

KFC Kickin For Christ

on Jun 06, 2007

Baker, do you know how many people I've talked to over the years that LOVE the Sermon on the Mount (Chap 5-7) yet don't give a rip about anything else in scripture? Why do you suppose? Remember I've said Matthew 7:1 is the most quoted scripture from non believers? Do you think it has to do with religion just in general?

And the answer to your question? No. I don't see God in a mocking way. The only place I think I really see it is in the Proverb you brought forth although it's said elswhere that he won't listen to them because he knows what's in them. But there it's talking about the prideful arrogant sinners, not the town drunks. It's all about context. Most of what I believe of God's attitude on the "unjust" is this because it's repeated so much:

"Have I any pleasure in the wicked should die? says the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways and live?

"Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby you have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit; for why will you die O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dies says the Lord God; wherefore turn yourselves and live. " Ezek 18:23, 31-32.

Repentance brings escape from judgment because God does not delight in the death of the wicked. Yet, they say to God that he's out of balance (v25) or unjust. Actually it's the people who were are out of balance, not God.

I believe God is more than longsuffering and patient with us. There's no way any of us on earth can compare to what he's had to put up with. We should all be on our knees grateful he hasn't wiped all mankind off the face of the earth for how we've treated him all this time.

Back to Matt 5. It's a great section of scripture you brought up. I especially am challanged by v38-42 with the principle being that we all be willing to suffer loss for another. Can you imagine this world if we all had this attitude? I try my best but fall short too many times, but we should all strive to have this attitude and the world would be a much better place.

Notice what he said in 11-12? What did the prophets say that got them in so much hot water with the people?

And of course in v44 he was a great example of practicing what he preached wasn't he?

Maybe you could go to an AIDS clinic and laugh derisively at the unrepentant dying.

now this is just nasty. Why would you say this to me after I told you our responsibility as Christians is to pray and love those that are engaging in behaviors (sexual immorality) that are not pleasing to God. Did I say anything that would warrent this comment? For crying out loud....I wasn't even the one to bring up the Proverbs you were.

I see nothing there that calls for us to only show mercy to the repentant.

I agree. We should be merciful to all people. But that's not what this blog is about. It's about God's sovereignty not ours.

As far as children goes....not all that walk on this earth are God's children. They are all his creation, yes, but not his children. So says Jesus himself:

I know that you are Abraham's seed (Jews) but you seek to kill me because my word has no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father and you do that which you have seen with your father. ........You do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father even God. Jesus said to them, If God were your Father you would love me for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself but he sent me. Why do you not understand my speech? Even, because you cannot hear my word. You are of your Father the devil and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning and abode not in the truth....... John 8:40:44

These are the ones that God will not hear in their time of trouble.....unless they turn and repent. Then he hears them. Remember God takes no delight in the demise of the sinners.

kingbee

on Jun 06, 2007

There are three steps to determine if God has let go of a nation. The first step is that every form of sexual immorality is accepted by society. The second step is when lesbian sex is celebrated by a society. It's unnatural and unthinkable in God's eyes. So first we see the sexual revolution followed by the homosexual revolution.

if this is true, god musta been closely embracing afghanistan under the taliban.

KFC Kickin For Christ

on Jun 06, 2007

when exactly did god proclaim his citizenship or formally embrace the united states?

He didn't. Actually he said quite clearly...."My Kingdom is no part of this world."

will kfc agree with lulapilgrim it's the rcc?? if not...)

First off I want to come to Lula's defense here and say that I believe her when she says, she is against any in the past, present and future who have committed atrocities against humankind or that are behaving in an unChristian manner not representing her church as they should. I do think she's a bit too lenient on the past offenses but her strength is on the here and now dealing with those that she sees abusing or taking advantage of their positions in the RCC. She doesn't stick up for them.

Having said that and believing in many things that Lula stands for, we part company when it comes to the authority of the RCC. We see history a bit differently. I see Luther as a hero, one sent and protected from God. She sees him as a devil and traitor to his own church. We disagree and we're ok with that. Now, if she'd just stop trying to convert me back to the RCC......we'd get along even more smashingly than we do now.....

.

I don't believe Christ set any Kingdom or denomination on this earth. I beieve he started the church (people) and the Universal Catholic Church is one made up of all believers regardless of religious affiliation as long as they have the essentials and have made HIM not only Savior but also Lord of their lives. In other words, they are Christ Followers not men followers.

lulapilgrim

on Jun 06, 2007

KINGBEE POSTS:

please point me to the scriptural basis for claiming mankind has an inalienable right to private property

This is Catholic principle on the right to private property.

The right to private property is the right which every human being has from his very nature. The he may own, use, and dispose of material and even intellectual things for his own benefit, without interference.

An example, is John Smith owns something when it truly belongs to him and to no other person in such a way that he may sell it,consume it, alter it, or exchange it. Others have a duty to respect John's rightful ownership of his property and they may not interfere with his lawful use or disposal of it.

This right comes from the Natural Law and it is approved by the positive law of Almighty God. By this man, by reason of the fact htat he is endowed with intellect and free will needs to own in order to be able to live acording to his nature and thus attain the object for which God created him. When a man works, he exchanges his powers, capacity, energies and labor--things which are part and parcel of himself--for a wage. The wage is his so long as he violates no law, he can do what he likes with it.

Whatever he lawfully obtains with his wage is his; it belongs to him. Therefore if he has a right to exchange his labor for a wage and he certainly has the right to purchase and own private property, even that type of property which is productive of other goods that can be sold (contrary to what socialists and communists advocate).

I won't go into it here, but there are social principles on private property and how that is necessary for the family and also for initiative and progress.

Some things obviously cannot be owned, e.g.daylight, and must be used according to its purpose and nature. Therefore the right to private ownership is not absolute and unlimited right.
The State has the right and the duty to limit in some respects and in some grave reasons private ownership for the common good of all. But State control may never rightly reach such proportions as to the amount to a practical denial of the right to private ownership. Both real socialism and communism deny that men have a right to private ownership of productive goods. WIth this position, they deny the law of Nature and untold misery is the result.

Kingbee, look in the Book of Deuteronomy 19:14, Moses clearly stated the law of private ownership. "Thou shalt not take or remove thy neighbor's landmark, which thy predecessors have set in thy possession, which the Lord thy God will give thee in the land taht thou shalt receive to possess." In Exodus 20:17, we find several of God's commands in this regard. "thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, neither shalt thou desire his wife, nor his servant, nor his handmaid, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is his." Jesus Christ repeated and reinforced these commandments of the Old Law. Check out St.Matt. 19:18-19; St. Mark 10:19 and Romans 13:9.

lulapilgrim

on Jun 07, 2007

KFC Posts:

Now, if she'd just stop trying to convert me back to the RCC......we'd get along even more smashingly than we do now......

Why thank you KFC, I love you too, eh?

lulapilgrim

on Jun 07, 2007

KFC POSTS:

These are the ones that God will not hear in their time of trouble.....unless they turn and repent. Then he hears them. Remember God takes no delight in the demise of the sinners.

This is so true. God wants all to be saved...but it's got to be on His terms. He's the Creator we are the created. He rules...in mercy, love and justice. At the same time, any one who humbly acknowledges their sin and truly repents, He will hear, He will forgive..their sin will be removed as far as the east is from the west.....when we do this we are becoming perfect as He is perfect.

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