How Can We Know For Sure?
Published on June 4, 2007 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Religion
I heard a sermon today by John McArthur that held the audience spellbound. There was not a sound to be heard as he preached a most sobering sermon about America and God's wrath against it. He is one of the most respected and sought after speakers and theologians today and one that I admire as well. He says it straight, and I like that. He's not afraid to stand up and speak the truth, and his wisdom, I believe, is God given as he loves and preaches nothing other than the word of God. Anyhow here's what I heard to the best of my recollection today as I paraphrase some of his thoughts..

In the book of Judges we read about the strongest man that ever lived, Samson. We read one of the saddest commentaries surrounding him when we read this in 16:20b:

"And he knew not that the Lord was departed from him."

There's nothing sadder in the whole world than a God who has abandoned this people. During these times of the Judges, the children of God were constantly chasing after foreign gods. In fact, prior to Samson recognizing God's hand was no longer upon him, we read in Chap 10 that God was through with them. He gave them up to their heathen gods telling them to let their foreign gods save them from their troubles.

Hosea wrote of this in 4:17:

"Ephraim is joined to idols, let him alone."

After Jesus conftronted the Pharisees in Matthew 15, he went on to describe them as the blind leading the blind....let them alone he said. When God lets you go, it's serious.

Then John went on to say that God has abandoned America and one can see this clearly from the scripture. In Acts 16:15 Paul was preaching to the nation pleading with them to turn to the living God, the creator of all the earth. He said in verse 16:

"Who in times past allowed all nations to walk in their own ways."

This is not the first nation to go down nor will it be the last. We are heading as in times past walking in our own ways. We see a cycle of history as Paul describes in Romans 1:18 to the end of the chapter. This is what it says:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. 28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

There are five different manifestations to God's wrath that we see in scripture.

1. Eternal Wrath-unbelievers will experience this, being forever totally separated from God
2. Eschatological Wrath-This wrath is end of the earth wrath against the earth described in Revelation-yet to come
3. Calamitous Wrath-One in which a great calamity was allowed by God . An example of this would be the world wide flood.
4. Consequential Wrath-Patterns and results oriented. We reap what we sow sort of thing.
5. Abandonment Wrath-This is where He lets us go in the direction of our own sinful choices and desires.

This last one is what is at play in our society today. How do we know?

We see by the above passage that the wrath of God is revealed from heaven. We can see clearly the reasons for this wrath and beginning with v24 can see the description of this wrath. Three times it says he gave them over which is "Paradidomi" and means to "give or hand over" give or deliver up" as to a prison or judgment.

Basically he's handing us over as a society to be sentenced. Somebody said, "The history of the world is the judgment of the world." This wrath of abandonment is a result of men's willful, deliberate rejection of God.

So we now are being deprived of God's restraining grace as a nation. How do we know? We see that God gave them over to the lusts of their heart. The first thing that happens to a nation that no longer has the hand of God upon them is sexual perversion. Just for starters.....we can't even begin to count the millions of pornographic sites out there today. Before the internet , man had to go out to satisfy his sexual perversion by purchasing magazines or videos outside one's home . It was a shame and an embarrasing thing to go to a store or video store to purchase such material. So it was somewhat controlled or held at bay, but now the industry's exploded with the easily accessible way to porn by secrety obtaining such materials over the net. We can go back to the sixties and Hugh Hefner and see it's gone like a flood since then.

Sin is characterized by lust from the inside. The thoughts come from the heart and mind and the wickedness gets manifested through the body as a demonstration of what's going on inside. That's why Christ said it's what's inside that defiles a man, not what's outside. James says lust conceives, brings forth sin, and sin brings forth death. Right thinking precedes right living.

There are three steps to determine if God has let go of a nation. The first step is that every form of sexual immorality is accepted by society. The second step is when lesbian sex is celebrated by a society. It's unnatural and unthinkable in God's eyes. So first we see the sexual revolution followed by the homosexual revolution. We see here in the above passage that the women are picked first here. When the women start leading the sexual parade God removes his restraint. Look at verse 27. It's amazing. Right here we can see the consequential wrath along with the wrath of abandonment, but they keep on doing it anyway. When it starts coming, it's like a flood. Nothing outside of God can stop this.

The last step we see in verse 28 is that God gave them over to a depraved mind. A depraved mind is non functional; useless; can't think; can't comprehend; and is out of control.

We now can even see this line of thinking in churches today. This perversion is rampant, out of control. Society is rushing to acceptance and we are heading towards massive moral disaster. Can't somebody stand up and speak up? We read in Corinthians that man by his own wisdom cannot know God and with Satan all too willing to blind us we have a compound blindness here. We can't seem to allow anyone to take a strong position against such perversion and rally around it. Human wisdom is not getting us anywhere.

God has given this country over to a depraved mind. Whether you agree or not, it's something we need to think on seriously. Where are we heading? Is it too late to turn our country around?

Stay tuned."

Comments (Page 2)
7 Pages1 2 3 4  Last
on Jun 05, 2007
Sugarcoat it how you like, but it is up there in the blog. You conveniently paraphrase what MacArthur actually says concerning Cataclysmic Wrath:


but you're pulling something out of a listing not what the main article was about. I wasn't expounding on this particular wrath of God, but of another.

This, again, is the same old Phelps crap. He's talking about God refusing to help when asked, about God turning His back on those that are seeking Him, simply because of the general moral character of their nation. Never mind the parable of the prodigal son, whose father sees him while he is still far away.


Com'on Baker. Use your mind here. What's the diff between the world rejecting God....and the prodigal Son? While we're there....what happened to the Prodigal Son while away from the Father? Did he have it all peaches and cream? Huh? When he was away from God, he ran into problems. He willingly rejected God but later repented and came back. This is a totally diff senerio.

Look at Romans 1 again. Notice that even tho they were paying for their actions, they still refused to turn back to God. Much diff than the Son of the Father in the parable Baker. Not even close.

So, evidently, God has turned his back on my family because of other people's sins


Nooooooo where'd I say that? We are all accountable for our own sins. Even when God abandons a nation, he still has his own he protects. While I believe God may have abandoned our nation, I certainly don't believe he's abandoned me. We may indirectly be affected because sin affects us all, but it's not like God is unleashing his wrath on his own. He's not up there zapping any at will. It's more like he's taken his hand of protection off a particular nation when the people continually shake their fist at him.

What do you suggest we do about homosexuality, KFC? You tell me, what should I do about it so God will stop all the plagues and hurricanes and volcanoes and such? Do we kill them? Outlaw homosexuality? Maybe have tribunals for people who are accused of such and burn them at the stake?


None of the above. Love them. Give them the truth in love. Pray for them and pray for our nation. When legislation comes knocking on your door (if you get the chance) vote against it. But I would never ever show any type of hate filled anger at them. They don't know any difference. They just don't know. It goes back to God giving us up to a depraved mind and what I wrote above.

There's a famine of the word of God and nothing will happen unless we open the floodgates of God's word to the people. God only wants one thing. He wants us to listen to him and to respond to his truth. When we do, if we do, it would bring the greatest recovery story of any nation...ever. Ninevah comes to mind here.

While we don't know his plan we can see God's heart in scripture.

Psalm 81 shows us the answer:

10 I am the Lord your God which brought you out of the land of Egypt; open your mouth wide and I will fill it. 11 But my people would not hearken to my voice and Israel would have none of me. 12 So I gave them up to their own hearts lust; and they walked in their own counsels. 13 Oh that my people had hearkened to me and Israel had walked in my ways! 14 I should quickly have subdued their enemies, and turned my hand against their adversaries."

Think about this: If he would do that with his covenant people Israel what do you suppose he'd do with us? Look at v13. This is the heart of God that we need to get a grasp on. We need to proclaim the word of the living God to America. If it was proclaimed all across America and taken to heart God would drown us in blessing. Look at how God would react in v14. Quickly. He's not dragging his heels here is he?

That's the answer.


on Jun 05, 2007
"but you're pulling something out of a listing not what the main article was about. I wasn't expounding on this particular wrath of God, but of another."


Then you don't believe that MacArthur is right when he says that 9/11 was the wrath of God? What about that glowing commendation in the first paragraph of your blog? You can't bare to admit this out loud can you, even though you keep coming back to it over and over and eluding to it.

Did you listen to the whole sermon? He mentions it more than once. Aren't you willing to either condemn what you don't believe, or proclaim proudly what you do believe?

"Com'on Baker. Use your mind here. What's the diff between the world rejecting God....and the prodigal Son?"


The difference is in your scenario an entire nation, saints and sinners alike, have God's hedge removed from them. Were ALL the people in the twin towers supporters of the homosexual lifestyle? If not, then you must believe that when God refuses to protect a nation that means everyone in the way at the time.

"While I believe God may have abandoned our nation, I certainly don't believe he's abandoned me."


I know you don't. Phelps doesn't believe that God has abandoned Him, either. Such people say that God has given up on our nation and then secretly delight that they aren't going to suffer along with the rest of the unwashed. When people die in car accidents, it must be because they weren't of as much use to God as the people who survive.

"It's more like he's taken his hand of protection off a particular nation when the people continually shake their fist at him. "


It's more than that, according to MacArthur's sermon. He stated openly that God would not hear the calls for help, nor would He step in to save a nation who He has abandoned. God tells them to go get help from their pornographers, evidently.

Do you consider yourself outside the nation? Do you have a little anti-terrorist bubble of piousness around you?

"None of the above. Love them. Give them the truth in love. Pray for them and pray for our nation..."


Seems like you are asking a lot more of Christians that what God is willing to put forward. If we were Godly wouldn't we turn our backs on them, offer them no protection or help during natural disasters and tragedies? That's what you claim God does. Are we better than God?

Verse 13 is the part you want to leave out of this. That's the part where the kids get bashed against rocks because of the sins of their parents or their neighbors, while God is supposedly sticking His lower lip out and pouting. That's the part with the Katrinas and the 9/11 attacks.

More of your Old Testament, "jealous", anthropomorphized, pagan god seeping in. No such god, with such vices, would be perfect.
on Jun 06, 2007
Wait, pray for the nation? If you believe that God has abandoned our nation, and if you believe what MacArthur quotes out of the Bible, would God even hear such a prayer?

If he hears your prayer and not the prayers of the sinners, then he hasn't turned His back on the "nation", has he?
on Jun 06, 2007
Did you listen to the whole sermon? He mentions it more than once. Aren't you willing to either condemn what you don't believe, or proclaim proudly what you do believe?


Maybe you heard another one? I do know he had a sermon on the 9/11 happening but that was way back. This sermon I'm aluding to was this past month. I'm thinking you're bringing something else here into the mix. Let's stick to the blog material for now so we don't go all over the place.

Aren't you willing to either condemn what you don't believe, or proclaim proudly what you do believe?


Excuse me? Haven't I been doing that? I think it's pretty clear what I believe Baker.

I know you don't. Phelps doesn't believe that God has abandoned Him, either. Such people say that God has given up on our nation and then secretly delight that they aren't going to suffer along with the rest of the unwashed. When people die in car accidents, it must be because they weren't of as much use to God as the people who survive.


that's a bunch of balony. Can't you deliver an argument to me without dragging Phelps into it? How many times are you going to hit me over the head with Phelps? You've got an obsession with him. He seems to be hanging tightly onto your neck lately. You really need to cut him free Baker.

Did you not read when I said we all are affected by sin? The sin of drunkedness may kill a small child in a car crash. That's what sin does. It's dirty and ugly and while we live in a sinful world we can't help but to get some on us.

It's more than that, according to MacArthur's sermon. He stated openly that God would not hear the calls for help, nor would He step in to save a nation who He has abandoned. God tells them to go get help from their pornographers, evidently.


see you're dragging a diff sermon in here. What are you talking about? Not the sermon I heard. I' do know what you just quoted is in scripture. God does say more than once there comes a time when it gets so bad that he will refuse to listen. Most of the scriptures that talk about this has to do with their being sorry they are feeling the affects of their sin, not sorry they have sinned against God. Again I think Romans 1 as quoted already gives us this same picture.

But again, I did not hear the above quote nor the quote you put up above either which makes me believe you're bringing up a diff sermon. The one I was referring to was made in May to a church in Colorado Springs.

Verse 13 is the part you want to leave out of this


???? What are you talking about? I didn't leave 13 out at all. If I wanted to, I sure as heck wouldn't have pointed it out now would I? I said it's showing us the heart of God.

The rest of your rant is only showing me quite a bit of anger. Anger is NOT a fruit of the spirit Baker.



on Jun 06, 2007
Wait, pray for the nation? If you believe that God has abandoned our nation, and if you believe what MacArthur quotes out of the Bible, would God even hear such a prayer?


If your child comes to you sincerely repentent for her unloving, maybe even hateful actions against you, wouldn't you forgive her?

Now, if this same child comes to you only wanting relief from the consequences of her hateful actions, heart unmoved, do you still reconcile with her and her unyielding ways?
on Jun 06, 2007
"Maybe you heard another one? I do know he had a sermon on the 9/11 happening but that was way back. This sermon I'm aluding to was this past month. I'm thinking you're bringing something else here into the mix. Let's stick to the blog material for now so we don't go all over the place."


I linked the sermon above. It's the one you are talking about. Point by point, verse by verse. If he offers transcripts for the deaf, we can link quotes if you like. If he doesn't, he should.

"see you're dragging a diff sermon in here. What are you talking about? Not the sermon I heard."


LOL, then you didn't listen to it. Last paragraph, reply #14. I promoted anyone to go listen to it if they didn't believe me. It is the same thing you post above, verse by verse, list of "wraths", Samson, everything.

"If your child comes to you sincerely repentent for her unloving, maybe even hateful actions against you, wouldn't you forgive her? "


According to you, God turns His back on the NATION. Katrina didn't dodge around hitting the sinners and not the repentant. Why do you keep dancing around that? Go listen to the sermon again, you missed a lot of it, evidently.
on Jun 06, 2007
P.S. I'm not infatuated with Phelps, I'm sick of Christians who pretend they are better than Phelps and hide the fact that they agree with a large part of what he believes. Like now, when you refuse to address whether 9/11, or Katrina, etc., was the wrath of God or not, when the SERMON YOU ARE CITING says so.

You don't want to talk about that, but you are talking about God turning His back on America for its sins. That entails more than just leaving us to our sins. The other aspects are unsavory to speak about in public, though, I suppose.
on Jun 06, 2007
Maybe you heard another one? I do know he had a sermon on the 9/11 happening but that was way back. This sermon I'm aluding to was this past month. I'm thinking you're bringing something else here into the mix. Let's stick to the blog material for now so we don't go all over the place.


The date on the linked sermon is May 27, 2007, KFC.
on Jun 06, 2007
on Jun 06, 2007
From the transcript:

To the sons of Israel, God said in Judges 10,

"You have forsaken me and served other gods, therefore I will deliver you no more. Go and cry out to the gods which you have chosen, let them deliver you in the time of your distress."


God is saying I’m done with you. In Proverbs chapter 1 verses 24 to 31 we find a similar sentiment.

"Because I called and you refused, I stretched out My hand and no one paid attention and you neglected all My counsel and did not want My reproof, I will even laugh at your calamity. I will mock when your dread comes, when your dread comes like a storm and your calamity comes on like a whirlwind, when distress and anguish come on you, then they will call on Me but I will not answer. They will seek Me diligently but they shall not find Me. Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord. They would not accept My counsel, they spurned all My reproof. So they shall eat of the fruit of their own way and be satiated with their own devices."


Do you believe in a God that mocks us when our dread comes? Who would laugh at our calamity? I'll quote again the passage on the wrath you choose to omit:

"There is also what we could call cataclysmic wrath, like a tsunami, a volcano, a hurricane, an earthquake, a plane flying in to the Twin Towers resulting in thousands of death...cataclysms happen in this world. And they are a reflection of the judgment of God. There is also what you could call consequential wrath. Consequential wrath is the sowing and reaping wrath, you live a certain kind of life and you set in motion certain forces that will produce judgment."


That "judgment" he's referring to, does it fall just upon the guilty? Were the children who died in those tsunamis, earthquakes, etc., did God turn his back on them for the sins of their "Nation"? Is this what you believe, KFC?

The scripture quoted above says "They will call on me, and I will not answer". Did he accidentally include that when speaking of the nation as a whole? Or, do you think that he's saying that God simply won't answer the call for help from our nation now that He has supposedly "abandoned" us.

If that doesn't have anything to do with the point, as you keep exporessing, why did Phel... urm, I mean MacArthur cite it?
on Jun 06, 2007
P.S. I'm not infatuated with Phelps


yes you are....yes you are...yes you are....(sticks tongue out).

I'm sick of Christians who pretend they are better than Phelps


as Ronald Reagan would say:

"There you go again!"

I'll check the link out tomorrow. I didn't put the stuff you quoted above because I didn't hear that. I heard what was on the radio and like I said, took notes. I believe it could have been an abbreviated (for time) sermon. Since I heard it twice, I'm absolutely sure the parts you quoted I didn't hear. It has nothing to do with me skipping anything. If you're questioning me you can get what I heard on www.family.org and hear exactly what I did hear.

Like now, when you refuse to address whether 9/11, or Katrina, etc., was the wrath of God or not, when the SERMON YOU ARE CITING says so.


I would agree with McArthur. Since I believe all things happen for a reason and nothing is outside his control. God allows things to happen for a purpose and plan that only he knows. Bad things happening in life whether it be individually or corporately many times draws us closer to God. Sure, some get mad and rail against him but some don't. It's a choice. During 9/11 we saw a nation that did draw closer to God. It didn't last long I'm afraid but many did come to the saving knowledge of God thru it.

things happen for many reasons. Sometimes we don't know why. Sometimes we can see it, sometimes not. Sometimes things happen because of our own screwups and we must pay the consequences. Sometimes it's Satan doing his thing and sometimes it's God himself. It's not always easy to determine. I look at the Twin Towers as Satan doing his thing and God allowing it to happen. Evil unleashed.

In my own life when something happens, I examine my life and most of the time I can determine why a particular thing has taken place. When we suffer are we suffering because we are suffering for God (as Christ, the Prophets and Apostles did) or are we suffering because of our own stupidity?

While we're at it Baker. I don't press you like you do me most of the time letting things go, but you many times skip over things yourself and don't answer my questions either. Here's one you skipped....

please tell me what era has rushed to.....no..... demanded to have society accept homosexual behavior as normal?


on Jun 06, 2007
I ignored it because you took my point out of context. What I said was:

"P.S. You have read enough of the early church documents to know that this stuff has been said in EVERY era."


And that's the truth. Go back and look at what was said about God abandoning the world in the late Roman empire, the dark ages during the plague, the renaissance, the reformation, the age of enlightenment, the civil war, WW2, the Cold War, blah, blah blah...

There have ALWAYS been people pounding their fists and saying God has abandoned us, and that's why the current (war/plague/famine/drought/light breeze) is all the fault of the (homosexuals/sinners/intellectuals/scientists/communists/pornographers/yadda yadda.). You're being obtuse if you pose that what this sermon is saying is anything new.

P.S. Augustus Ceasar made homosexuality and adultery illegal and blamed Rome's problems on it before THERE WAS A CHRISTIANITY. No, not a new thing in the least. Their answer? They castrated their slaves so the "men" they were having sex with wouldn't really be "men".

No, if you take the time to study a bit you'll find that we have not plumbed the depths of depravity possible. The stuff Romans painted on their walls was often far more tasteless than anything you find in Playboy. So, heh, you can't really claim there has never been a more "gay" nation, can you?



on Jun 06, 2007

The date on the linked sermon is May 27, 2007, KFC.


Well the sermon I HEARD was on James Dobson's radio program yesterday and it was sermonized on the National Day of Prayer. So that was before this linked sermon. So maybe that's the difference? Besides, I'm sure Dobson didn't play the whole thing like I already said because of time issues. It really doesn't matter really. Baker just wants to turn it into another issue by pulling up another part of the sermon I just didn't get to hear.

Do you believe in a God that mocks us when our dread comes? Who would laugh at our calamity? I'll quote again the passage on the wrath you choose to omit:


again, this is just nasty. I DID NOT OMIT ANYTHING.

Why do you play dumb with me Baker? How many times do I have to say the same thing?Of course you didn't answer this either.

If your child comes to you sincerely repentent for her unloving, maybe even hateful actions against you, wouldn't you forgive her?

Now, if this same child comes to you only wanting relief from the consequences of her hateful actions, heart unmoved, do you still reconcile with her and her unyielding ways?


Most of the scriptures that talk about this has to do with their being sorry they are feeling the affects of their sin, not sorry they have sinned against God. Again I think Romans 1 as quoted already gives us this same picture.


What don't you understand about this principle? I think I made it pretty clear. This is your bias showing Baker. It's been presented pretty simply. You'd be more honest if you'd just say you don't buy it.



on Jun 06, 2007
"Of course you didn't answer this either. "


Yes, I did, back in reply 21. I pointed out that you have a double standard, saying that God can turn his back on a nation, and yet not turn His back on every daughter that really repents. If God is only turning His back on the unrepentant sinners, then why is this "nation" stuff even at issue.

Because, as you admit above, you believe that God withholds his aid and the repentant daughters get it, too. But not the REALLY repentant ones, I guess...
on Jun 06, 2007
ok, here's what you just quoted from Proverbs 1

Because I called and you refused, I stretched out My hand and no one paid attention and you neglected all My counsel and did not want My reproof, I will even laugh at your calamity. I will mock when your dread comes, when your dread comes like a storm and your calamity comes on like a whirlwind, when distress and anguish come on you, then they will call on Me but I will not answer. They will seek Me diligently but they shall not find Me. Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord. They would not accept My counsel, they spurned all My reproof. So they shall eat of the fruit of their own way and be satiated with their own devices."


Now, I find it interesting what you highlighted. Pretty interesting and speaks LOUDLY of your bias. Now....I'll rewrite it and highlight it again by underlining it KFC style.

Because I called and you refused, I stretched out My hand and no one paid attention and you neglected all My counsel and did not want My reproof, I will even laugh at your calamity. I will mock when your dread comes, when your dread comes like a storm and your calamity comes on like a whirlwind, when distress and anguish come on you, then they will call on Me but I will not answer. They will seek Me diligently but they shall not find Me. Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord. They would not accept My counsel, they spurned all My reproof. So they shall eat of the fruit of their own way and be satiated with their own devices."

Looks alot different when you highlight different words now doesn't it?
Sounds an awful lot like Romans 1 doesn't it? Whose side are you on Baker? Like I keep saying your bias is showing. I'm giving you the WHOLE counsel of God and you're picking and choosing what you want. I'll say it one more time....God knows and judges the heart. He knows if they are sincerely repenting or just sorry for their calamity. He knows his sheep and his sheep respond.

I'll give you another clue on the Proverbs 1 thing and you can do the research ok? Think Saul. He's your example.
7 Pages1 2 3 4  Last