How Can We Know For Sure?
Published on June 4, 2007 By KFC Kickin For Christ In Religion
I heard a sermon today by John McArthur that held the audience spellbound. There was not a sound to be heard as he preached a most sobering sermon about America and God's wrath against it. He is one of the most respected and sought after speakers and theologians today and one that I admire as well. He says it straight, and I like that. He's not afraid to stand up and speak the truth, and his wisdom, I believe, is God given as he loves and preaches nothing other than the word of God. Anyhow here's what I heard to the best of my recollection today as I paraphrase some of his thoughts..

In the book of Judges we read about the strongest man that ever lived, Samson. We read one of the saddest commentaries surrounding him when we read this in 16:20b:

"And he knew not that the Lord was departed from him."

There's nothing sadder in the whole world than a God who has abandoned this people. During these times of the Judges, the children of God were constantly chasing after foreign gods. In fact, prior to Samson recognizing God's hand was no longer upon him, we read in Chap 10 that God was through with them. He gave them up to their heathen gods telling them to let their foreign gods save them from their troubles.

Hosea wrote of this in 4:17:

"Ephraim is joined to idols, let him alone."

After Jesus conftronted the Pharisees in Matthew 15, he went on to describe them as the blind leading the blind....let them alone he said. When God lets you go, it's serious.

Then John went on to say that God has abandoned America and one can see this clearly from the scripture. In Acts 16:15 Paul was preaching to the nation pleading with them to turn to the living God, the creator of all the earth. He said in verse 16:

"Who in times past allowed all nations to walk in their own ways."

This is not the first nation to go down nor will it be the last. We are heading as in times past walking in our own ways. We see a cycle of history as Paul describes in Romans 1:18 to the end of the chapter. This is what it says:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. 28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

There are five different manifestations to God's wrath that we see in scripture.

1. Eternal Wrath-unbelievers will experience this, being forever totally separated from God
2. Eschatological Wrath-This wrath is end of the earth wrath against the earth described in Revelation-yet to come
3. Calamitous Wrath-One in which a great calamity was allowed by God . An example of this would be the world wide flood.
4. Consequential Wrath-Patterns and results oriented. We reap what we sow sort of thing.
5. Abandonment Wrath-This is where He lets us go in the direction of our own sinful choices and desires.

This last one is what is at play in our society today. How do we know?

We see by the above passage that the wrath of God is revealed from heaven. We can see clearly the reasons for this wrath and beginning with v24 can see the description of this wrath. Three times it says he gave them over which is "Paradidomi" and means to "give or hand over" give or deliver up" as to a prison or judgment.

Basically he's handing us over as a society to be sentenced. Somebody said, "The history of the world is the judgment of the world." This wrath of abandonment is a result of men's willful, deliberate rejection of God.

So we now are being deprived of God's restraining grace as a nation. How do we know? We see that God gave them over to the lusts of their heart. The first thing that happens to a nation that no longer has the hand of God upon them is sexual perversion. Just for starters.....we can't even begin to count the millions of pornographic sites out there today. Before the internet , man had to go out to satisfy his sexual perversion by purchasing magazines or videos outside one's home . It was a shame and an embarrasing thing to go to a store or video store to purchase such material. So it was somewhat controlled or held at bay, but now the industry's exploded with the easily accessible way to porn by secrety obtaining such materials over the net. We can go back to the sixties and Hugh Hefner and see it's gone like a flood since then.

Sin is characterized by lust from the inside. The thoughts come from the heart and mind and the wickedness gets manifested through the body as a demonstration of what's going on inside. That's why Christ said it's what's inside that defiles a man, not what's outside. James says lust conceives, brings forth sin, and sin brings forth death. Right thinking precedes right living.

There are three steps to determine if God has let go of a nation. The first step is that every form of sexual immorality is accepted by society. The second step is when lesbian sex is celebrated by a society. It's unnatural and unthinkable in God's eyes. So first we see the sexual revolution followed by the homosexual revolution. We see here in the above passage that the women are picked first here. When the women start leading the sexual parade God removes his restraint. Look at verse 27. It's amazing. Right here we can see the consequential wrath along with the wrath of abandonment, but they keep on doing it anyway. When it starts coming, it's like a flood. Nothing outside of God can stop this.

The last step we see in verse 28 is that God gave them over to a depraved mind. A depraved mind is non functional; useless; can't think; can't comprehend; and is out of control.

We now can even see this line of thinking in churches today. This perversion is rampant, out of control. Society is rushing to acceptance and we are heading towards massive moral disaster. Can't somebody stand up and speak up? We read in Corinthians that man by his own wisdom cannot know God and with Satan all too willing to blind us we have a compound blindness here. We can't seem to allow anyone to take a strong position against such perversion and rally around it. Human wisdom is not getting us anywhere.

God has given this country over to a depraved mind. Whether you agree or not, it's something we need to think on seriously. Where are we heading? Is it too late to turn our country around?

Stay tuned."

Comments (Page 7)
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on Jun 11, 2007
How can you claim to take the Old Testament literally and then pretend that always supporting the Israeli leadership is a sound practice?


I think it goes back to the promise to Abraham. "I will make thee a great nation. I will bless them that bless thee and curse him that curses theee and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. "

ALWAYS siding with Israel is definitely not biblical, and in probably half the Bible you would have been going AGAINST God. You, yourself believe that their times in captivity, the plagues, etc., were because they supposedly sinned against God. Those who chose never to oppose Israel would end up calling evil good and heading off with them into captivity a good portion of the time


I agree. God put them into captivitiy because they were not being the light to the gentile nations they were supposed to be. Basically what Israel did was go after those nations to be like them. They polluted themselves with the world. Israel was supposed to be the leaders. Paul talked about this alot in personal application...."bad company corrupts good character." Too bad Israel couldn't learn that lesson.

Personally tho you can see some in the OT that were blessed because of their relationship to Israel. I think of Rhab and how she was not only spared before the fall of Jerico but even she as a prostitute was put in the lineage of Jesus and going all the way to the gospels there she's named.

But again many of the countries were condemned because of their lack of help and support to Israel when Israel needed it. Edom was harshly condemned (book of Obadiah is good here) and they were to be judged harshly as a result. Remember Edom comes from Esau so they had a blood connection to Israel yet they delighted in Israel's troubles not coming to their aid. They also prevented Israel from escaping even participating in the sacking of Jerusalem.

This principle is in the NT and will come into play (Matt 25) during the tribulation when God turns back to the Jews and those will be judged according to how they treated the future persecuted Jews under the coming Anti Christ.

I don't know how accurate this is but there's a guy out there (and I'd have to go searching for him) that has been watching the USA's involvment with Israel very closely over the years. He's put together events that have resulted in either some sort of trouble headed our way or blessing depending on some decision we made on Israel's behalf. In other words when we went against Israel in favor of their enemy we have something like an earthquake or something that just seems to happen to us....not sure what I think on that to tell you the truth, but he did make some interesting connections. I'll see if I can dig that up in my archives.

You believe with certainty that eventually being on their side will be the right thing, but are you willing to be on their side when they are wrong the rest of the time, just so you don't miss it?


Well I do think the apple of God's eye is Israel. They are not always perfect, but as much as possible we should be with them not against them. Of course it they are doing something atrocious then yes, we need to be that light to them but the way we're going I'm not so sure we are any better off right now. We are never to go against God's word just to line up with a particular nation. Somewhere in there we have to be allies with them, not neccessarily always agreeing or doing anything that would violate our relationship with God....which we really don't have anyhow.

From what I see Israel is always the one making concessions going out of their way to make peace but it's their enemies not holding their end of the bargain.

I don't believe God would toss their whole nation to the Babylonians, or the Persians, etc., because of the acts of some of their people or their leaders. You do, though, and so when people claim supporting Israel is supporting God I have to wonder if you are really thinking about it.



Well he did. Not only is it very detailed in scripture, secular history backs this up as well. Pretty much for the most part so goes the leaders so goes the people.....there are always a few that don't and we see the Daniels, Noah's and Abrahams so named as being called out and protected. It's the same with churches....the Pastor or leader of the church has great influence on his people. If he challenges them to a higher standard, they will rise to it. If he lowers the bar, they will stay there as well.

I am thinking about it. Have for years thought about all this. This is not a new thing for me. I've been in this stuff for years, especially the prophecy parts of scripture.
on Jun 11, 2007
Lula,

That is cool. I appreciate St. Augustine as well. I guess you are not protestant background then. No prob. Got to see the Pope in Germany last year.

Actually, now I work in and around a lot of Orthodox folk and they believe everyone else, including the Vatican are wrong. But we talk about Jesus. Luther is good to bring in when it comes to Macarthur and his style of santification.

on Jun 11, 2007
And what about the church? Where in anything written in the NT do you get a "Holy Nation" outside of the church? Colossians, Ephesians, Corinthians. We are resident aliens but our citizenship is in heaven.


No, but God has alot to say about the Nations as well. Not a holy nation anywhere. Agree. But he did say:

"By me kings reign and princes decree justice. by me princes rule and nobles, even all the judges of the earth. Prov 8:16.

Paul said:

"Let every soul be subject to the higher powers for there is NO power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. " Romans 13:1

and Daniel had to pause and gulp before he gave this interpretation of a dream to Nebuchadnezzer in 4:32:

"And they shall drive you from men and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field; they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen and seven times (years) shall pass over you until you know that the most High rules in the Kingdom of men and gives it to whomsoever he will."

THis last verse reminds me of Saddam. Remember the day they found him in a hole? He came out all discheveled and looking like a maniac? Well here Nebuchadnezzer would go insane and find his home in the dirt. Saddam liked to boast that he was the new KIng Nebuchadnezzer. He had no idea what fate would befall him in his boasting did he?
on Jun 11, 2007
Actually, now I work in and around a lot of Orthodox folk and they believe everyone else, including the Vatican are wrong. But we talk about Jesus. Luther is good to bring in when it comes to Macarthur and his style of santification.


Are you a reformed Christian Ignat? You sound as tho you are but your name totally throws me off being defintely of a Catholic nature.

We had a missionary from Italy come to my church last night with slides and his take on the Vatican and history. He actually wore an out right out of the pages of 1507 looking like Martin Luther. He had some pretty interesting things to say.
on Jun 11, 2007
Ok, this is getting a bit fuzzy now. The whole prophetic deal is God's deal. There is too much to do otherwise...Matt 28.

KFC, do a word study on "nations" in Greek and Hebrew and see how that all fits into Gen. 12.

Also, if God blessed people like Ahab and or any land around them it was not because they "helped" Israel, it was because they recognized and honored the One True God, the God of Israel. This was Israel's duty as well. Israel's "mission" if you will, that it was to be the people of God and proclaim or witness that to the nations (all ethnicities). They were the vehicle to which salvation was to be taken to the world. An ironic bit to this is all the "New Age" festivals that take place in Israel today. The young people love them.

The did accomplish it, though they went through it the hard way. But Christ was there all the way through with them. Wrestling with Jacob, in the wilderness, the burning bush. Salvation would come and as Christ told the women at the well there would be no need for holy mountians or holy fountains (wells). He would dwell in His followers from then on and finish spreading the "good news" to the ends of the earth.

I don't live in the US at the moment, so it has been interesting following this sermon and discussion. Thanks. See you on the other side.
on Jun 11, 2007
Did you know, KFC, that there is a a group made up of Israeli government officials that celebrate the King David Hotel bombing every year? That there is a plaque lauding the attack there? A terrorist attack against British citizens that killed dozens, BY future leaders of Israel?


Interesting. I wasn't aware of this.



What about the fact that leaders in Israel as well as the general populace have accepted abortion on demand, and are now in the throws of accepting open homosexual rabbis? Of this, Michael Medved wrote:

"In a heart-breaking betrayal of authenticity and tradition, the Conservative movement in Judaism announced plans to begin training and ordaining openly homosexual rabbis. The Conservative denomination – supposedly occupying middle ground between the liberal, anything-goes Reform movement and the rigorously observant Orthodox—wouldn’t ordain a rabbi who proudly, publicly ate pork, but now they will honor gay males who announce their participation in sex acts unequivocally described by the Torah as “abomination.”

There is a big distinction to be made concerning Isreal of the OT as a once chosen people who came under the OLd Covenant and the actual nation of Israel today which unless they convert to the New Covenant, are not under any covenant at all. There is no such thing as biblical Judasim as that was abolished when the Temple was rent at the time of Christ's death and completely given up and the Jewish people scattered when Herod's Temple was completely destroyed brick by brick in 70AD.
on Jun 11, 2007
IGNAT POSTS:
Also, if God blessed people like Ahab and or any land around them it was not because they "helped" Israel, it was because they recognized and honored the One True God, the God of Israel. This was Israel's duty as well. Israel's "mission" if you will, that it was to be the people of God and proclaim or witness that to the nations (all ethnicities). They were the vehicle to which salvation was to be taken to the world.


Precisely.

Are they still that vehicle? I would say no becasue this is biblical Judaism which again, doesn't exist anymore. For the most part, they rejected the Messiah and the new and everlasting covenant in His blood and still do.
on Jun 11, 2007
Are they still that vehicle? I would say no


I would agree with you Lula. The tables have been switched. But I do think they will be in the future. Not going to open that ball of wax right now...

But he's not done with the Jews Lula. That's the Catholic viewpoint. They believe they have replaced Judaism and it's no such thing. Jeremiah 31 is a great chapter on this. Over and over God says he's going to give Israel a new heart in the future and I believe that is still yet to happen. Some of the scripture I quoted in Ezekiel have that same promise attached. When they go into their land he's going to do some heart surgery on the nation.

Paul spoke of this as well in Romans 9-11. He's not done with them yet.

it has been interesting following this sermon and discussion. Thanks. See you on the other side.


I hope we don't have to wait that long to converse again......it's been interesting to talk with you. There's alot here we agree on. I do agree the Great Commission is still going on and most important. We don't want to be so heavenly minded we're not earthly good as they say, but it's still cool to dig a bit deeper once in a while.



on Jun 11, 2007
KFC POSTS:
But he's not done with the Jews Lula. That's the Catholic viewpoint. They believe they have replaced Judaism and it's no such thing. Jeremiah 31 is a great chapter on this. Over and over God says he's going to give Israel a new heart in the future and I believe that is still yet to happen. Some of the scripture I quoted in Ezekiel have that same promise attached. When they go into their land he's going to do some heart surgery on the nation.

Paul spoke of this as well in Romans 9-11. He's not done with them yet.


I agree that He's not done with the Jews, or done with any one of us for that matter. He wants all to be saved.

As far as Romans, we agree on that too. One of the essentials the Catholic Chruch tells us concerning the Jewish people and the end of the world is that the Jewish people will come to recognize Jesus Christ as their Messiah before He returns. See Romans 11: 25-29. We don’t know when or under what circumstances this will happen.

on Jun 11, 2007
As far as Romans, we agree on that too. One of the essentials the Catholic Chruch tells us concerning the Jewish people and the end of the world is that the Jewish people will come to recognize Jesus Christ as their Messiah before He returns. See Romans 11: 25-29. We don’t know when or under what circumstances this will happen.


ok,

From how I read it, it will be at the very end. Zechariah I think gives the best description:

And it shall come to pass on that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem and I will pour upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and supplications and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced and they shall mourn for him as one mourns for his only son and shall be in bitterness for him as one that is in bitterness for that firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddo. Zech 12

and one shall say to him, What are those wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends......and it shall come to pass that in all the land....two parts therin shall be cut off and die, but the third (remnant) shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire and will refine them as silver is refined and will try them as gold is tried; they shall call on my name and I will hear them; I will say it is my people and they shall say, The Lord is My God. Zech 13

While we know it's going to be tied to the end we can get clues. One we see the Jews are going to see his physical body. We also see that this is going to happen "in that day" which stands for end times and we also see it's in the valley of Megiddon. Which is basically the battle of Armageddon. But it's all in his time, his power to save Israel. This is where Paul talked about 'all Israel will be saved."
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